I wanna play with the big boys!

[Richie]

My other theory is that starting younger also allows hr brain to specialize some resources earlier for seeing and reading spin. But as you point out, there is some survivor bias to starting young. I just find it hard to believe I would struggle so much with reading spin had I started younger. But maybe it is just a story I use go make myself feel better and there is nothing special about it.

I'm sure it helps, more time to have aha moments, more time to experiment, more likely to build better technique. Especially if you are heavily exposed to it and allowed to experiment and taught/shown how to spin yourself. Getting that right from an early age with good players around you that you can copy, I can imagine that every pro player has had that.

We sometimes use the phrase here "skruvblind" - spinblind. We have referred to that for some players who look solid during knock-up and then they push a heavy topspin serve and it flies out 2 meters. Of course, almost everyone has some experience of that.. just sometimes it's more or less extreme. It's the opposite of having "feeling".

 

[IB66]

I'm sure it helps, more time to have aha moments, more time to experiment, more likely to build better technique. Especially if you are heavily exposed to it and allowed to experiment and taught/shown how to spin yourself. Getting that right from an early age with good players around you that you can copy, I can imagine that every pro player has had that.

We sometimes use the phrase here "skruvblind" - spinblind. We have referred to that for some players who look solid during knock-up and then they push a heavy topspin serve and it flies out 2 meters. Of course, almost everyone has some experience of that.. just sometimes it's more or less extreme. It's the opposite of having "feeling".

Ritchie, do you class reading spin as ‘feeling’?

 

[Richie]

Ritchie, do you class reading spin as ‘feeling’?

I think of feeling as touching the ball in the right way, usually to produce spin in different ways. Feeling based shots seem to be more with the hand/fingers than using the body fully like a loop.

If you can push a topspin serve short, that requires a good amount of feeling and in order to do so, it's a requirement that you read the spin properly in the first place.

If you can't read spin well, it'll be difficult to have good feeling for the ball. Reading the spin becomes more intuitive with experience and so does "feeling". These two concepts are closely linked. Reading the spin is like having an intuition based on experience, so you know how the ball will react, it's flight etc.

Difficult to describe these things..

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

I still struggle to read spin despite so many veterans / experts / helpful friends et al have been trying to help me. It is like I am a person living with disability when it comes to TT.

To give a perspective, I am very poor at receiving serves and I can lose 50% of the game to service error. During practice, if my friendly opponent were to tell me before hand what sort of spin he will serve, I can return the serve 100% of the time. But if it is not informed prior, the my % goes down to 50% or lower. Worse if those servers throw in some fancy hand movement that confuses me even more.

I have had "teachers" giving up in exasperation, saying how could you not see that that serve is underspin / topspin. It is clear as day! I just tell him I can't! I just can't!

 

[blahness]

I think of feeling as touching the ball in the right way, usually to produce spin in different ways. Feeling based shots seem to be more with the hand/fingers than using the body fully like a loop.

If you can push a topspin serve short, that requires a good amount of feeling and in order to do so, it's a requirement that you read the spin properly in the first place.

If you can't read spin well, it'll be difficult to have good feeling for the ball. Reading the spin becomes more intuitive with experience and so does "feeling". These two concepts are closely linked. Reading the spin is like having an intuition based on experience, so you know how the ball will react, it's flight etc.

Difficult to describe these things..

I think it's the feeling of absorbing the incoming momentum of the ball using the body and fingers before releasing it to whatever placement you want. Ppl with "hard" contact with the ball cannot develop feeling. I've watched a few Chinese tutorials about this.

Unfortunately, English language tutorials are quite lacking in terms of these more advanced concepts.

I think for eg pushing short against sidetopspin serves is not so much of feeling but of good technique (as per Fang Bo's opinion). On his stream he taught some ppl to push short against topspin and they all managed to do it in quite a short time.

 

[JJ Ng]

About reading spin and touch, I think a lot of it is talent. That's how some people can progress in table tennis very quickly while other struggle to move up the ranking.

It is like some people are born to be entertainers, Justin Bieber, I am talking about you. Other people are born to be engineers. Honestly I have met some people who are dylexic in terms of numbers. If they become engineers, I am afraid that some of our bridges will collapse!

Some people are just born with the ability to read spin and/or have fabulous touch.

Age has something to do with it and it does not.

I started playing table tennis at the age of thirteen and I still have trouble reading spin. However, part of that I had to blame my coach. My coach is from China originally and is very old school. Obviously he was great at asking the students to have perfect form but I was too scared to fool around in practices. Looking back, it would have been good for my development if I learned to fool around in practices in order to learn more about spin. Without messing with your strokes a little bit in an unorthodox way so to see how spins are generated, then how could you learn to read spin properly otherwise?

 

[blahness]

About reading spin and touch, I think a lot of it is talent. That's how some people can progress in table tennis very quickly while other struggle to move up the ranking.

It is like some people are born to be entertainers, Justin Bieber, I am talking about you. Other people are born to be engineers. Honestly I have met some people who are dylexic in terms of numbers. If they become engineers, I am afraid that some of our bridges will collapse!

Some people are just born with the ability to read spin and/or have fabulous touch.

Age has something to do with it and it does not.

I started playing table tennis at the age of thirteen and I still have trouble reading spin. However, part of that I had to blame my coach. My coach is from China originally and is very old school. Obviously he was great at asking the students to have perfect form but I was too scared to fool around in practices. Looking back, it would have been good for my development if I learned to fool around in practices in order to learn more about spin. Without messing with your strokes a little bit in an unorthodox way so to see how spins are generated, then how could you learn to read spin properly otherwise?

Personally I found that a lot of my touch came from learning how to serve different types of serves with high quality (with a lot of spin)

FH Tomahawk/hook = standard FH push
FH pendulum = FH sideswipe
BH pendulum = BH strawberry
BH tomahawk/hook = standard BH push

 

[NextLevel]

I still struggle to read spin despite so many veterans / experts / helpful friends et al have been trying to help me. It is like I am a person living with disability when it comes to TT.

To give a perspective, I am very poor at receiving serves and I can lose 50% of the game to service error. During practice, if my friendly opponent were to tell me before hand what sort of spin he will serve, I can return the serve 100% of the time. But if it is not informed prior, the my % goes down to 50% or lower. Worse if those servers throw in some fancy hand movement that confuses me even more.

I have had "teachers" giving up in exasperation, saying how could you not see that that serve is underspin / topspin. It is clear as day time! I just tell him I can't! I just can't!

Reading spin is something that gets better as you play more and learn to serve better, you even get better in matches but the problem is that you need the right strokes as well. And sometimes even a decent return still gets attacked powerfully so you are back to square one
.
But take comfort in the fact that ir continues to get better but the main issue is you need strokes to return serves as well

 

[NextLevel]

Damien Provost says that you need relaxed shoulders to return serves. Not the same as the tight grips that govern rallies.

 

[blahness]

I still struggle to read spin despite so many veterans / experts / helpful friends et al have been trying to help me. It is like I am a person living with disability when it comes to TT.

To give a perspective, I am very poor at receiving serves and I can lose 50% of the game to service error. During practice, if my friendly opponent were to tell me before hand what sort of spin he will serve, I can return the serve 100% of the time. But if it is not informed prior, the my % goes down to 50% or lower. Worse if those servers throw in some fancy hand movement that confuses me even more.

I have had "teachers" giving up in exasperation, saying how could you not see that that serve is underspin / topspin. It is clear as day time! I just tell him I can't! I just can't!

The problem with relying on reading ball contact points is that at higher levels, all of them serve with almost the same movement for different spins and placements.

I struggled af against my current penholder practice partner in the beginning because his serves look exactly the same between underspin and topspin, even the preparatory movements for different placements (fast long, double bounce short) looks identical.

First thing is about adopting an approach which has a greater tolerance for error in terms of approaching and spinning the ball. I have different approaches depending on the serve type. There's a lot of detail to increase this "error tolerance" in your strokes.

Second thing is about reading the trajectory to read the spin. Heavy underspin slows down while topspin speeds up. If you force yourself to not look at the contact and watch the trajectory like a hawk, some of these details become apparent. You can also see it better if your eye level is closer to the net.

 

[mocker88]

I realy don't understand these remarks people make.
If you never played pips this is the worst advise ....

Just hold you bat against a ball and the others make mistakes?
If you go to higher levels they will crush LP players that just block a ball.

Yep. That's just plain stupid
You could just say "use Tenergy 05. It plays by itself"

To get better, at any age and at a lower level, you need to use rubbers that are more linear to really work with your technique and footwork. I'm not 62 yet, but closing in, but I still practice 2-3 times a week. I feel that's a minimum for me to retain this technique that I'm building up all the time.

It's always hard work that's required, and when you can't or don't want to put in that effort, you wont evolve. And try to play against a lot of different playing styles

 

[TensorBackhand]

I realy don't understand these remarks people make.
If you never played pips this is the worst advise ....

Just hold you bat against a ball and the others make mistakes?
If you go to higher levels they will crush LP players that just block a ball.

OP didn't ask how to beat higher level players, he said he wants to beat 1500 players.

Absolutely 1500 players will make a ton unforced errors against LP or SP. It is completely within the realm of possibility that somebody with no LP experience could practice for a couple hours or sessions with LP and get some wins against 1500 players.

I wish I could make myself 1300 again like OP just to prove it to you.

 

[Richie]

I started playing table tennis at the age of thirteen and I still have trouble reading spin. However, part of that I had to blame my coach. My coach is from China originally and is very old school. Obviously he was great at asking the students to have perfect form but I was too scared to fool around in practices. Looking back, it would have been good for my development if I learned to fool around in practices in order to learn more about spin. Without messing with your strokes a little bit in an unorthodox way so to see how spins are generated, then how could you learn to read spin properly otherwise?

This was what I was talking about in one of my posts. Some training environments (like some I've experienced) have such a focus on doing things in certain ways that another part of the game takes a big hit.

This is why I show a fair amount of skepticism towards a lot of coaches. They're just doing what's routine for them and what they were taught. Many of them aren't even good players. They don't need to be good players, it's just easier for others to watch and copy the better player. But if you aren't a good player or can't emulate the technique as an example AND you're entrenched in some old approach that clearly isn't improving your players much.. then what's going on. Though they clearly have other things going for them.

I just find it sad and you can see people who are trying to improve struggle because a rigid approach creates a lot of misunderstanding imo. Until that player has some aha moment about it, improvement may be at a standstill for a very long time.

 

[Der_Echte]

This was what I was talking about in one of my posts. Some training environments (like some I've experienced) have such a focus on doing things in certain ways that another part of the game takes a big hit.

This is why I show a fair amount of skepticism towards a lot of coaches. They're just doing what's routine for them and what they were taught. Many of them aren't even good players. They don't need to be good players, it's just easier for others to watch and copy the better player. But if you aren't a good player or can't emulate the technique as an example AND you're entrenched in some old approach that clearly isn't improving your players much.. then what's going on. Though they clearly have other things going for them.

I just find it sad and you can see people who are trying to improve struggle because a rigid approach creates a lot of misunderstanding imo. Until that player has some aha moment about it, improvement may be at a standstill for a very long time.

Richie,

You just earned Hall of Fame for attitude in discerning what is real and what counts, and what doesn't matter as much.

TT coaching can be a results oriented business... but it is beyond that.

What really counts for adult learners is to see what can work or not and how to grow with what you got.

Player/Coaches like Next level and Scoobie Doo "The Tsos" can get to the heart of the matter licketie split.

THAT counts for a LOT with adult development.

 

[Der_Echte]

OP didn't ask how to beat higher level players, he said he wants to beat 1500 players.

Absolutely 1500 players will make a ton unforced errors against LP or SP. It is completely within the realm of possibility that somebody with no LP experience could practice for a couple hours or sessions with LP and get some wins against 1500 players.

I wish I could make myself 1300 again like OP just to prove it to you.

I am gunna so totally opposite and epically REKTt the mind of TTD members and agree with TensorBackhand and even go beyond... some 2000 midwest or east coast USA players can struggle too. (which is 1700-1800 cali corwd)

At Russian Church tonite, I had TWO bonafide Cali 1800 level attacking players (both classically Chinese attack oriented trained) ... I chopped, and so did another coach who is real old (so am I, but he is almost 10 yrs older and I am closer to 101 than 21...)... and these two 1800 Cali attackers seriously struggled to land 30-40% of their attacks vs our LP chops in a practice situation where we were trying to chop it to their strong zone...

What is crazy is that the second dude I coach (an adult named Ali who is officially Cali 1300-1400) has 65% plus landing percentage and runs circles around these guys in this drill... and this dude has barely done this drill not even a month.

 

[Der_Echte]

What I just wrote is proof of what karma happens to players who avoid practicing or playing vs LP or uncomfortable style players.

 

[Der_Echte]

Tensor BH... there is a Billionaire here in Sac area who I recently played using inverted/LP setup and played a disruptive bump, chop, and twiddle/loop game against in local league... crushed him like no tomorrow, and that was the first time ever I played such a setup remotely competitively... I am rated mid 1700s local league, this billionaire rated upper 1700s... look on his face throughout match with him knowing he aint gunna make it waz precious.

YOU could get sum learning, goof off and develop touch and do the SAME thing I did... and maybe even better standard that I did... you are young and brave, so who knows.

 

[IB66]

With older players, coaching them is not straightforward or a cut and dried situation.

It depends on what skills they have, and these skills / techniques maybe far far FAR from text book!!
You can see that some have had a good amount of coaching previously, others, less coaching and more self taught, and then there are those that are completely self taught through just playing. They can have unconventional grips, stances etc etc

They may already be playing in local leagues, and have come looking to improve, climbing up the divisions.
When being coached there can be troughs and peaks in match performance as the coaching progresses. So care has to be taken that, as a coach you don’t break down current technique completely so that match performance doesn’t drop out completely, especially with the ‘unconventional’ player, generally they won’t have the time to completely relearn a stroke.
Those with some previous formal coaching, are both easier and harder to help, habits can be hard to break!! Muscle memory is both friend and foe.

We had 2 local league players join our sessions, they play for the same club, have pretty similar win percentages.
One is technically sound, his basic strokes are well founded, what you would expect to see, more ‘text book’ than not. The other guy has an unconventional grip, unconventional stoke forms.
So we have to treat these 2 players slightly differently.

The unconventional player, we decided to make no changes to his grip, or unconventional stroke forms.
Why? Because somethings look pretty, are economical, have good weight transfer etc look text book, others don’t, but still work.

impact is important, critical. You see, to a certain extent, how you get to that point, what it looks like, doesn’t matter, as long as the bat angle is right, direction of bat movement is right (etc) AT IMPACT then the ball is highly likely to land on the opponents side of the table.
We show the guy what a ‘conventional’ stroke looks like, slo mo it down to just before, at and after impact. He can see what he needs to do with his hand, wrist, arm and bat to achieve a result.

There’s saying “you can’t teach old dogs new tricks” but you can help that trick be better.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Tensor BH... there is a Billionaire here in Sac area who I recently played using inverted/LP setup and played a disruptive bump, chop, and twiddle/loop game against in local league... crushed him like no tomorrow, and that was the first time ever I played such a setup remotely competitively... I am rated mid 1700s local league, this billionaire rated upper 1700s... look on his face throughout match with him knowing he aint gunna make it waz precious.

YOU could get sum learning, goof off and develop touch and do the SAME thing I did... and maybe even better standard that I did... you are young and brave, so who knows.

I think i would actually be quite good as a LP player.

 

[pgpg]

OP didn't ask how to beat higher level players, he said he wants to beat 1500 players.

Absolutely 1500 players will make a ton unforced errors against LP or SP. It is completely within the realm of possibility that somebody with no LP experience could practice for a couple hours or sessions with LP and get some wins against 1500 players.

I wish I could make myself 1300 again like OP just to prove it to you.

+1. Some things will become A LOT easier with LP against 1500 crowd, service return being one of them. You also quickly get your share of mistakes some (but not all) opponents will make, and a bit of psychological advantage. It's not all rainbows and unicorns, of course - you do need to re-learn some things.

Ideally you would be using LP because you want to play a certain way, not because you want 200 rating points (which might not happen on Day 1).