I wanna play with the big boys!

[blahness]

"Aesthetic", "fun", "beautiful", "unpleasant", "cool" ...not sure if there is any actual discussion going on.

Just like how video games are optimised/balanced to provide max fun to the players, so should the sport be. This is the whole point about the ITTF banning of hidden serves and speed glue right as well as the whatever pips aspect ratio limits and all the ball changes right? So that TT is more like a sport rather than a magician show?

 

[IB66]

I don't like playing vs LP, MP And even SP, and at the lower levels, it can just seem like the bat is just stuck in the way of the ball. player doesn't move much, but that's more because they are usually older, and at a lower level. Bumping/push/blocking the ball back, close to the table takes away time.
It's unfair that they put weird spin on the ball, it's unfair that the ball wobbles around.

WELL JUST GET OVER IT, Stop your moaning, whining and learn how to deal with LP / MP / Anti players,
That's what I try and do, relatively unsuccessfully!!! but it's getting better!!
TBH these days it's easier, when same colour rubbers were allowed and the rubbers weren't regulated as much, serves could be 'hidden' it was a REAL nightmare!!!!

At higher levels it's a different case. especially if a player can twiddle and play with both inverted and L/MP on both wings!!!
These guys have learnt almost twice the shots!!! And if you are telling me that a defensive chopper doesn't move....??? They actually deserve respect.

 

[blahness]

I don't like playing vs LP, MP And even SP, and at the lower levels, it can just seem like the bat is just stuck in the way of the ball. player doesn't move much, but that's more because they are usually older, and at a lower level. Bumping/push/blocking the ball back, close to the table takes away time.
It's unfair that they put weird spin on the ball, it's unfair that the ball wobbles around.

WELL JUST GET OVER IT, Stop your moaning, whining and learn how to deal with LP / MP / Anti players,
That's what I try and do, relatively unsuccessfully!!! but it's getting better!!
TBH these days it's easier, when same colour rubbers were allowed and the rubbers weren't regulated as much, serves could be 'hidden' it was a REAL nightmare!!!!

At higher levels it's a different case. especially if a player can twiddle and play with both inverted and L/MP on both wings!!!
These guys have learnt almost twice the shots!!! And if you are telling me that a defensive chopper doesn't move....??? They actually deserve respect.

Exactly my point... you see you give them respect for whatever skills they acquire with their lazy style, but you actually hate playing them. And this is quite a common sentiment around.

Btw choppers are not included in this discussion, their game should be valued and protected as matches with them can be quite spectacular.

I met 2 close table LP players before in tournaments, won both matches easily because I have a high level LP practice partner (lol surprise to them!), but i was still pissed off coz I had to bust my ass powerlooping and running down all those wide angle balls they gave me while they just stood there like a wall and probably not even getting their 10,000 step goal playing a tournament lol... The worst thing is that there's a few good inverted players who are roughly 50-50 with me, they actually lost badly to those LP players, simply because they didn't know what to do...

 

[hclnnkhg]

Just like how video games are optimised/balanced to provide max fun to the players, so should the sport be. This is the whole point about the ITTF banning of hidden serves and speed glue right as well as the whatever pips aspect ratio limits and all the ball changes right? So that TT is more like a sport rather than a magician show?

You are missing my point. My point is you are mainly spilling subjective negative feelings toward (long) pips/"lazy" (I prefer to call it efficient) playing style. Whilst your feelings are valid (as everyone else's feeling), there isn't much substance. This is becoming an endless rant. Me and @NextLevel have raised counter-arguments about how LP is being "unfair" and breaking the system.

Table tennis allows older/less mobile players to compete with younger/more athletic players (only up to a certain point), and that could be viewed as a positive, rather than a negative. TT doesn't have to be tennis or badminton, nor it will get very successful if it tried.

 

[Metaxa]

There is a 2200 level player that plays this style in NY, he chops the ball to make it dead when he hits on the backhand and mostly smashes on the forehand. He can topspin once in a while but it is not his thing.

Not for one or the other, but if I see that player playing and he has 2000-2200 USTT-level, he would struggle to reach level 1500 in Belgium I'm afraid.
I didn't know/don't know, but apparently the level with in the USA is a lot lower than in Belgium.
i am really surprised about this.

 

[piligrim]

Btw choppers are not included in this discussion, their game should be valued and protected as matches with them can be quite spectacular.

If you told this before I wouldn't argue with you )))

 

[NextLevel]

Not for one or the other, but if I see that player playing and he has 2000-2200 USTT-level, he would struggle to reach level 1500 in Belgium I'm afraid.
I didn't know/don't know, but apparently the level with in the USA is a lot lower than in Belgium.
i am really surprised about this.

Ratings are usually normalized, so you have to know how to translate the playing level, so the absolute number doesnt matter as long as the scale is being normalized. So even if you think that Belgium has a higher playing level, looking at numbers like the rating without translating is like speaking Chinese to. Frenchman without translating. If you want to be rude, do it insightfully and then we can discuss. Thanks.

 

[NextLevel]

For people who have never seen Rich play, this is with the old ball... not his prime but typical.

 

[Metaxa]

Ratings are usually normalized, so you have to know how to translate the playing level, so the absolute number doesnt matter as long as the scale is being normalized. So even if you think that Belgium has a higher playing level, looking at numbers like the rating without translating is like speaking Chinese to. Frenchman without translating. If you want to be rude, do it insightfully and then we can discuss. Thanks.

Lol, I'm just stating and I certainly don't want to hurt anyone with this.
Apparently the allocation of levels in the USA is completely different than in Belgium. If you had level 2000-2200 in Belgium, you would lean towards the sub-top of Belgium and you would already be between places 200-300 on the ranking of 12,000 active players.
In Belgium they use the ELO points system.
Reporting that a player has level 2200 is therefore irrelevant because it depends on country/continent.
Thank you.

 

[NextLevel]

Lol, I'm just stating and I certainly don't want to hurt anyone with this.
Apparently the allocation of levels in the USA is completely different than in Belgium. If you had level 2000-2200 in Belgium, you would lean towards the sub-top of Belgium and you would already be between places 200-300 on the ranking of 12,000 active players.
In Belgium they use the ELO points system.
Reporting that a player has level 2200 is therefore irrelevant because it depends on country/continent.
Thank you.

It is the same with German TTR - USATT is usually TTR+ 300/400. In Ukraine you can get players with around Ukrainian rating 60 which is like 2400-2500. But if you go to Canada, there are players with 3000+ rating who would be around 2500 in the USA. In the end, you need to understand how the rating system works, not just take numbers and act like they mean the same thing everywhere. If you take a 2700 player in the US, he is a world class player anywhere in the world.

The main point is here is that don't confuse your ignorance of how ratings work with the playing level of the country - they are separate things. Thank you.

 

[Metaxa]

The main point is here is that don't confuse your ignorance of how ratings work with the playing level of the country - they are separate things. Thank you.

Now I'm completely surprised!🤨
The calculation of how ratings work in another country therefore has to do with levels.
Now that you have explained this to me it is clear to me that ratings of 2000-2200 (for example) in your country is proportional to ratings in Belgium of 1500-1700 and we are talking about a different level. Is there something wrong with that? No, absolutely not, every level has its possibilities and limitations. A player from this ranking can have a perfectly high level within his ranking/level.

 

[NextLevel]

Now I'm completely surprised!🤨
The calculation of how ratings work in another country therefore has to do with levels.
Now that you have explained this to me it is clear to me that ratings of 2000-2200 (for example) in your country is proportional to ratings in Belgium of 1500-1700 and we are talking about a different level. Is there something wrong with that? No, absolutely not, every level has its possibilities and limitations. A player from this ranking can have a perfectly high level within his ranking/level.

Yes, you are right, a 1500-1700 rating in Belgium may be the same *level* as a 2000-2200 level in the USA. But that says nothing about whether players are stronger in the USA or in Belgium, because the same percentage of players may be at the 1500-1700 level in Belgium as the 2000-2200 level in the USA. Or the USA may have more such players. It's probably English vs your native language, but the numbers that describe the level are just that, they say nothing about the relative playing level in either country.

 

[SleepyMaster]

Of course pips are making the sport uncool, you will never see a long pips pushblocker player achieve the heights of Pongfinity in terms of popularity for eg... they are hated in TT circles for a good reason.

Imagine some beginners taking up table tennis due to Pongfinity, and then losing bad to some LP guy who doesn't move at the table at the club lmao...

I even partly agree with you about pips. I didnt really enjoy to play against pips often. But if you want to progress in TT you should overcome it, by more practice. If you play just for fun - yeah, pips are pain in the ass, it can be very then unpleasant experience to play against them. Does pips will help you to gain some extra wins exp on a lower levels, definitely yes.

I was playing an amateur tourney one time, with no strict rule set (no one checking an equipment of players I didn’t check opp racket before the match ), and one dude was playing with totally dead 2 $ racket with broken handle that was about 15 years old. The guy didn’t even notice it. The sponge, the rubbers were dead totally, in some part they were separated from the blade. And he giving me the most hardest match of that tourney, and the most weirdest ball trajectories that I ever saw - like playing against broken, kinda retarted antispin but worse. I was down 0:2, and I was thinking in my mind “really? Do I really will lose to a guy with broken handle with all the hours that I put into training? 😄” My sidespins serves didn’t worked, my significant % of loops goes off the table. But I was managed to adapt, changing my strategy, simplified my game and get the win 3:2. Despite all of that, I enjoyed that experience.

Playing against this kind of guys or a pips players, can lead to frustration for first years of playing, but also gives you better feeling and understanding of variety of spins, and teachings you to utilize different strategies, pushing you to adapt quickly. So it’s overall beneficial for your game, even it doesn’t feel so in the process🙂

 

[JJ Ng]

I even partly agree with you about pips. I didnt really enjoy to play against pips often. But if you want to progress in TT you should overcome it, by more practice. If you play just for fun - yeah, pips are pain in the ass, it can be very then unpleasant experience to play against them. Does pips will help you to gain some extra wins exp on a lower levels, definitely yes.

I was playing an amateur tourney one time, with no strict rule set (no one checking an equipment of players I didn’t check opp racket before the match ), and one dude was playing with totally dead 2 $ racket with broken handle that was about 15 years old. The guy didn’t even notice it. The sponge, the rubbers were dead totally, in some part they were separated from the blade. And he giving me the most hardest match of that tourney, and the most weirdest ball trajectories that I ever saw - like playing against broken, kinda retarted antispin but worse. I was down 0:2, and I was thinking in my mind “really? Do I really will lose to a guy with broken handle with all the hours that I put into training? 😄” My sidespins serves didn’t worked, my significant % of loops goes off the table. But I was managed to adapt, changing my strategy, simplified my game and get the win 3:2. Despite all of that, I enjoyed that experience.

Playing against this kind of guys or a pips players, can lead to frustration for first years of playing, but also gives you better feeling and understanding of variety of spins, and teachings you to utilize different strategies, pushing you to adapt quickly. So it’s overall beneficial for your game, even it doesn’t feel so in the process🙂

I agree with you.

I find it challenging. I don't see a problem with pips. Hey, after we all get old at some point. You never know when any of us need to stick a long-pips or anti rubber on the backhand side. You should not judge.

At my club, there is an older gentleman who plays with hardbat. So short pips with no sponge. And his paddle and set up must have been the same for 15+ years or so. I play with him once a week. I enjoy it.

Sometimes I will serve long and spinny to get free points. But he will eventually adjust and reminds me that my strategy sucks. I should serve long, fast with no spin and loop kill after that.

Many times when I play him, my head hurts from all the thinking. I often have to lunge forward unexpected because, well, the ball comes back with no spin or weird spin and it wobbles.

I was having a five-match losing streak a couple months ago because I got lazy and I stopped thinking. Then recently, I started a five-match winning streak against him.

Do I care about losing him? Sure. Do I feel happier after winning? Of course. Does it really matter that much at the end of the day? No. I am not a professional table tennis player. There are things in life a lot more important than ping pong.

I always remind myself to not play him more than once or twice at most each week because if I play with him more than that, it messes up my timing and my stroke. But outside of that, it is all fun and game.

 

[SleepyMaster]

I agree with you.

I find it challenging. I don't see a problem with pips. Hey, after we all get old at some point. You never know when any of us need to stick a long-pips or anti rubber on the backhand side. You should not judge.

At my club, there is an older gentleman who plays with hardbat. So short pips with no sponge. And his paddle and set up must have been the same for 15+ years or so. I play with him once a week. I enjoy it.

Sometimes I will serve long and spinny to get free points. But he will eventually adjust and reminds me that my strategy sucks. I should serve long, fast with no spin and loop kill after that.

Many times when I play him, my head hurts from all the thinking. I often have to lunge forward unexpected because, well, the ball comes back with no spin or weird spin and it wobbles.

I was having a five-match losing streak a couple months ago because I got lazy and I stopped thinking. Then recently, I started a five-match winning streak against him.

Do I care about losing him? Sure. Do I feel happier after winning? Of course. Does it really matter that much at the end of the day? No. I am not a professional table tennis player. There are things in life a lot more important than ping pong.

I always remind myself to not play him more than once or twice at most each week because if I play with him more than that, it messes up my timing and my stroke. But outside of that, it is all fun and game.

I was not trying to judge, or something, I was more surprised that things like that, are even possible. It’s not like “I have 500$ setup and should win everyone”, absolutely and never I had something like that on my mind.

I was just caught by surprise, that untrained properly people, with broken rackets (it really had only part of the handle) and dead unglued rubbers, that should have already been in a trash box - almost giving me an ass whooping. I never had such experience before that. But I take my lesson from that and I had a lot of fun, giving an complement to the guy, after the game. As I told, he didn’t even realize that it is something wrong with his racket. If it would be official tournament, no way referee allows to play with this 🤭

 

[NextLevel]

I was not trying to judge, or something, I was more surprised that things like that, are even possible. It’s not like “I have 500$ setup and should win everyone”, absolutely and never I had something like that on my mind.

I was just caught by surprise, that untrained properly people, with broken rackets (it really had only part of the handle) and dead unglued rubbers, that should have already been in a trash box - almost giving me an ass whooping. I never had such experience before that. But I take my lesson from that and I had a lot of fun, giving an complement to the guy, after the game. As I told, he didn’t even realize that it is something wrong with his racket. If it would be official tournament, no way referee allows to play with this 🤭

I had similar experiences even when I knew how to play pips (somewhat). I was maybe around 1700, and I would play someone who came off the street with his dead racket, and because I was so used to hitting topspin and blocking, I would struggle a lot against such players in rallies, didn't know how to generate my own spin. Then I would watch the juniors my coach also trained play such people and destroy them easily. I just started with the wrong coach lol. Over time, I got much better and serving to such players (mostly heavy backspin) and attacking whatever came back. I still haven't mastered blocking flat balls so that is a work in progress.

 

[superbackhand]

I think I have the only coaching tip for everyone to beat the opponents:
don’t miss.

 

[SleepyMaster]

I had similar experiences even when I knew how to play pips (somewhat). I was maybe around 1700, and I would play someone who came off the street with his dead racket, and because I was so used to hitting topspin and blocking, I would struggle a lot against such players in rallies, didn't know how to generate my own spin. Then I would watch the juniors my coach also trained play such people and destroy them easily. I just started with the wrong coach lol. Over time, I got much better and serving to such players (mostly heavy backspin) and attacking whatever came back. I still haven't mastered blocking flat balls so that is a work in progress.

Yeah, understandable. I actually did the same - started to serve only under and then looped what coming back, also I did a heavy pushes with different directions on receives and it was enough to win. Because the guy, didn’t even know how to dealing with heavy pushes properly. But it still funny, how his equipment, giving him opportunity to neutralise my strongest strategy, that definitely worked against well trained players, with normal equipment.

Blocking flat ball is hard, when I play against two sides pips, I find for myself, more easy strategy is to still brush the flat ball, not to block, bc when I starting to play “flat to flat” with pips player i often lose the point. But there is a guys, that feeling themselves much better in that area, and they are able to win this flat battles even against pips 🙂

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yeah, understandable. I actually did the same - started to serve only under and then looped what coming back, also I did a heavy pushes with different directions on receives and it was enough to win. Because the guy, didn’t even know how to dealing with heavy pushes properly. But it still funny, how his equipment, giving him opportunity to neutralise my strongest strategy, that definitely worked against well trained players, with normal equipment.

Blocking flat ball is hard, when I play against two sides pips, I find for myself, more easy strategy is to still brush the flat ball, not to block, bc when I starting to play “flat to flat” with pips player i often lose the point. But there is a guys, that feeling themselves much better in that area, and they are able to win this flat battles even against pips 🙂

girl in black/pink is a chopblocker

both blues in Table 1 and Table 2 is chopblocker

all 3 girls is in the same team/school

I'm not sure if they train "long pip" chop blockers the same in the west.
chop blocker can push attack or block attack. not just a "blocker"

 

[SleepyMaster]

girl in black/pink is a chopblocker

both blues in Table 1 and Table 2 is chopblocker

all 3 girls is in the same team/school

I'm not sure if they train "long pip" chop blockers the same in the west.
chop blocker can push attack or block attack. not just a "blocker"

Yeah, skilled pips players can do a lot of tricks, I’m not telling that they ONLY can block. Never told that. It all depends on a skill of a player, I know very good two side pips players.