I wanna play with the big boys!

[IB66]

A good MP player I know, told me when he plays (what looks like a normal BH topspin stroke)he has to play it with the tip of the bat. Most disconcerting!! The ball comes back with light backspin (when compared to a chopped or blocked ball, which usually has more spin retained) Again, it’s getting your head around ignoring (to a certain extent) what the stroke looks like, disengage auto pilot!!!
He also plays a stroke, which is like a slo mo BH topspin v back spin, I’ve only seen him play this stroke once, when I played in a match alongside him. His opponent was a LP BH chopper, Inverted FH. The ball came back with a high flight, no spin and died, speed wise as it reached the net!! In fact the whole thing looked slow!!
Opponent was away from the table. This stroke was played v the opponents LP.
MP isn’t LP but not far away.
One serve type he struggles with is a fast, no spin serve to his MP, it has to be low to the net and not bounce up much, 2nd bounce net high

I agree with Carl, it would be great to hear from some higher level LP players, to find out what strokes they have and how they vary spin etc.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I agree with Carl, it would be great to hear from some higher level LP players, to find out what strokes they have and how they vary spin etc.

I could be wrong but I think it is not just the stroke but the depth of contact that allows a good pips player to vary what they send back to you; so subtleties in how they touch the ball seem to be important.

But, I guess the value of having a decent level pips player explain some of the things they needed to work on to improve would be that they will likely explain some things that we might not have even considered.

 

[Scarfed Garchomp]

To me, it would be interesting to hear, from an experienced and decently high level LP player how different kinds of contact using LP would create different effects, different kinds of spin. And to hear what kinds of things you need to learn and get good at to be effective using LP.

People who play with smooth and want to play an aggressive offensive style while looping from both wings know what they have done to improve and develop their games. I have a feeling that hearing about the development of skills to become a higher level LP player, from a decent level LP player would be quite educational for members of the forum.

It might only be tangentially related due to the pips content but I think this OOAK thread is probably one of the highest level accounts on English speaking forums of a chopper/defender training and playing with sp and ox/sponge lp- https://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=18471

 

[Metaxa]

1°-If you generate more spin, more spin will likely come back.

1°-Against LP? for sure yes, and that is against all the logic of science. Look at the effect coming back from an inverted vs LP. 😆

2°-Table Tennis skills are so much about learning to generate spin, to read spin, to learn how to counter and otherwise handle incoming spin. To ignore this, is to ignore what makes this sport what it is and if LP forces certain players to assess their weaknesses and improve certain skills that would make their overall skill set improve,

2°-I fully agree with that.

then LP should be seen for what they are and welcomed.

Or, even easier, just ban it. It does not help anyone!!!

 

[blahness]

Or, even easier, just ban it. It does not help anyone!!!

yes, I fully agree with this. But the problem is that choppers also use it. The other big problem is that old ppl are a big part of the sport, and if you ban these rubbers, they are simply unable to compete with the youngsters anymore. Which is normal in any other sport and they should accept it. But the old ppl are a big source of revenue for the TT circuit so they would never do it lol.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

As far as the burden of learning being put on any one kind of player: for anyone to actually improve their level of play, learning the skills of reading spin, being able to see the spin from how the ball bounces, how it curves in the air, how it arcs or does not arc, or how much spin you can see is on the ball, those are skills that are needed by ANY player who wants to increase his level of play because, when you play higher level players, whether LP, SP, MP, Smooth, Loopers, choppers, blockers, chop blockers.....when you are playing at higher levels, you WILL BE exposed to higher levels of spin. You can't get to those levels if you can't read and respond to that spin. If you generate more spin, more spin will likely come back.

Interesting to see a quote get taken out of context when the quote is so directly encased in its context. The LP player has to be able to read, respond to and handle the levels of spin that the high level two winged looper deals out. Or does anyone think that a 1500 level player who simply slaps LP on one side could actually stand at a table and go toe to toe with a 2700 level player as though the spin didn't matter?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I also find it interesting that someone who trains, works hard, enjoys table tennis, and enjoys the work it takes to improve, would see training and playing vs LP players as something he wouldn't want to do -- would want to avoid even by banning the material -- even if he knows that it will help him improve, identify weaknesses, and target areas of his game that can be improved so the player could get to a higher level. I do find that interesting.

 

[JJ Ng]

I also find it interesting that someone who trains, works hard, enjoys table tennis, and enjoys the work it takes to improve, would see training and playing vs LP players as something he wouldn't want to do -- would want to avoid even by banning the material -- even if he knows that it will help him improve, identify weaknesses, and target areas of his game that can be improved so the player could get to a higher level. I do find that interesting.

I am losing track of the thread. But any good two wing loopers will need to play against long pips. The key to a two wing looper, at least a good one is, you can loop slow and you can loop fast. You can control your loops. You can control your placement, i.e. to the opponent's backhand, forehand or in the middle. You can loop deep or shallow. You can loop with the top sheet only or loop with the sponge engaged. You can vary the amount of spin you want to put on the ball.

And the best way to acquire that is to play against a very good long pips player!!!!! Once you can beat a very good long pips player, then you know you have gradated from the two-wing looping school.

 

[NextLevel]

I also find it interesting that someone who trains, works hard, enjoys table tennis, and enjoys the work it takes to improve, would see training and playing vs LP players as something he wouldn't want to do -- would want to avoid even by banning the material -- even if he knows that it will help him improve, identify weaknesses, and target areas of his game that can be improved so the player could get to a higher level. I do find that interesting.

It is interesting, but it is already a well known attitude. This video describes it well:

 

[blahness]

A good MP player I know, told me when he plays (what looks like a normal BH topspin stroke)he has to play it with the tip of the bat. Most disconcerting!! The ball comes back with light backspin (when compared to a chopped or blocked ball, which usually has more spin retained) Again, it’s getting your head around ignoring (to a certain extent) what the stroke looks like, disengage auto pilot!!!
He also plays a stroke, which is like a slo mo BH topspin v back spin, I’ve only seen him play this stroke once, when I played in a match alongside him. His opponent was a LP BH chopper, Inverted FH. The ball came back with a high flight, no spin and died, speed wise as it reached the net!! In fact the whole thing looked slow!!
Opponent was away from the table. This stroke was played v the opponents LP.
MP isn’t LP but not far away.
One serve type he struggles with is a fast, no spin serve to his MP, it has to be low to the net and not bounce up much, 2nd bounce net high

I agree with Carl, it would be great to hear from some higher level LP players, to find out what strokes they have and how they vary spin etc.

You can do this same stroke with inverted. It's called a fake loop which looks like a loop but has zero topspin (I reckon it actually still has backspin). It's quite effective against LP players because they have no spin to borrow.

Basically against underspin, you open your racket angle and lift the ball with your legs, and after the stroke, do a loop followthrough so that it looks like your normal BH loop.

It always gives me a laugh how LP players struggle with this, whereas against inverted players this will just be powerlooped without mercy.

I remember destroying one LP player in a competition with this and he was completely baffled why his returns kept dying into the net. Lmao it was so satisfying seeing him get a taste of his own medicine. When he finally adjusted, I went back to my usual BH loop contact and he started lifting the balls well off the table. His "coach" wasn't able to help him figure it out in time.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

that someone who enjoys TT gets it ruined by LP. No more enjoy, go corner sulk and contemplate meaning of life and pickleball.

 

[blahness]

that someone who enjoys TT gets it ruined by LP. No more enjoy, go corner sulk and contemplate meaning of life and pickleball.

It takes a bit of a devious mind to make them suffer. Tbh I love playing games against overly confident lazy af pips players and give them a taste of their own medicine in terms of spin variation / deception. Too many inverted players play like "nice guys". You should remember that "nice guys finish last". In amateur TT it's often who can disgust the opponent more that wins and a lot of these are unconventional strokes.

 

[blahness]

It might only be tangentially related due to the pips content but I think this OOAK thread is probably one of the highest level accounts on English speaking forums of a chopper/defender training and playing with sp and ox/sponge lp- https://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=18471

It's funny right on page 2 (after guy got convinced by his Chinese coach to change to short pips from long pips), this is what he wrote:

"what I miss the most is the serve receive with long pips.....SO EASY...

I hate having to pay attention...."

LOL right out of the horse's mouth....busted!

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Gozo is low level player. Gozo sucks. Gozo no good with spin. Gozo yadda yadda yadda.... I get it, I don't dispute the fact. I am not trying to make myself better than what I am, no Drunning-Krugger whatchamacallit mumbo-jumbo.

In that very same inter-club friendlies that took place last Saturday, I just found out yesterday, two of my club's top tier player lost to pipster. One of them a forty something player who played since high school lost to a seventy something gramps with pips. Go figure 🤷🏽

I left early on that tourney day to attend a function hence I only found out about that big news yesterday when I patron my club again.

 

[IB66]

I could be wrong but I think it is not just the stroke but the depth of contact that allows a good pips player to vary what they send back to you; so subtleties in how they touch the ball seem to be important.

But, I guess the value of having a decent level pips player explain some of the things they needed to work on to improve would be that they will likely explain some things that we might not have even considered.

when he plays this slow mo BH, it looks like a fine brushing contact. So depth of contact is important.

 

[Ghostzen]

It's funny right on page 2 (after guy got convinced by his Chinese coach to change to short pips from long pips), this is what he wrote:

"what I miss the most is the serve receive with long pips.....SO EASY...

I hate having to pay attention...."

LOL right out of the horse's mouth....busted!

It's funny right on page 2 (after guy got convinced by his Chinese coach to change to short pips from long pips), this is what he wrote:

"what I miss the most is the serve receive with long pips.....SO EASY...

I hate having to pay attention...."

LOL right out of the horse's mouth....busted!

If I'm not wrong reading this... Day 2 of switching equipment to a rubber that's more reactive. I haven't read the whole x posts btw yet.

I see this a bit like going from hurricane to D05/fast ESN and making the reply my returns now are not as safe/good. If that makes sense..

Pips make the game interesting I think rightly or wrongly.It's been part of the game for as long as I've been playing. and I find their skill using the equipment a good challenge.

I wouldn't trash talk someone over their choices. In the end I've still got to try and beat them!

Some disagree some agree. Its all good.

Its polemics for whatever reason. You like, you don't. You have to play them.... So learn to play them or don't improve to a well rounded player.

Or worse be that guy/girl who is known.... "nice player" "They can't play pips...mind" they just implode...

To coin a phrase from blah on game play etc.. Disgusting serves/ return/good loops.... No clue... On the pips game refuses to learn... You got this one... Good points for the ranking!...

Mostly up and coming players who aren't "quite there" yet... Or "wannabes" Fall into the trap of. Older guy... Pips... Easy.

Interesting idea... What if you were faced by a young player playing pips or anti... Would it be the same?.

 

[Metaxa]

yes, I fully agree with this. But the problem is that choppers also use it. The other big problem is that old ppl are a big part of the sport, and if you ban these rubbers, they are simply unable to compete with the youngsters anymore. Which is normal in any other sport and they should accept it. But the old ppl are a big source of revenue for the TT circuit so they would never do it lol.

There is indeed truth in what you write but it always doesn't have to be that way.
I am well past 60+ now and have never played with technical equipment.
However, I started playing table tennis fairly late (16 years old). But I did have a good and solid training in club and apprenticeships. Hours and days of training. Unfortunately, my health was not sufficient to reach the top and I did not have enough talent. So I had to rely on hard work in training, competition and tournaments.
I never had the intention to switch to SP, LP or anti-rubbers. Not even now at a later age. I don't want to lower myself to using technical equipment, although it would more than likely benefit me now.

 

[blahness]

If I'm not wrong reading this... Day 2 of switching equipment to a rubber that's more reactive. I haven't read the whole x posts btw yet.

I see this a bit like going from hurricane to D05/fast ESN and making the reply my returns now are not as safe/good. If that makes sense..

Pips make the game interesting I think rightly or wrongly.It's been part of the game for as long as I've been playing. and I find their skill using the equipment a good challenge.

I wouldn't trash talk someone over their choices. In the end I've still got to try and beat them!

Some disagree some agree. Its all good.

Its polemics for whatever reason. You like, you don't. You have to play them.... So learn to play them or don't improve to a well rounded player.

Or worse be that guy/girl who is known.... "nice player" "They can't play pips...mind" they just implode...

To coin a phrase from blah on game play etc.. Disgusting serves/ return/good loops.... No clue... On the pips game refuses to learn... You got this one... Good points for the ranking!...

Mostly up and coming players who aren't "quite there" yet... Or "wannabes" Fall into the trap of. Older guy... Pips... Easy.

Interesting idea... What if you were faced by a young player playing pips or anti... Would it be the same?.

Dude this is close to unreadable....

 

[Metaxa]

Interesting to see a quote get taken out of context when the quote is so directly encased in its context. The LP player has to be able to read, respond to and handle the levels of spin that the high level two winged looper deals out. Or does anyone think that a 1500 level player who simply slaps LP on one side could actually stand at a table and go toe to toe with a 2700 level player as though the spin didn't matter?

Oh but suddenly you change the level (2700 vs 1500) that is irrelevant.
I have seen several very good players (top 50 players = 2500/2700) struggle against many players of a much lower level because they were playing with technical material. They usually won in the end anyway but with a lot of effort and perseverance.
Give the same lower level players an inverted rubber of 1.4, 1.6 or whatever and the much higher level player makes mincemeat of his opponent.

 

[Metaxa]

I also find it interesting that someone who trains, works hard, enjoys table tennis, and enjoys the work it takes to improve, would see training and playing vs LP players as something he wouldn't want to do -- would want to avoid even by banning the material -- even if he knows that it will help him improve, identify weaknesses, and target areas of his game that can be improved so the player could get to a higher level. I do find that interesting.

Perseverance can help a lot in this. But not everyone will or can muster this, depends a lot on your character of course.
But that can also be said about the equipment player. Why didn't he continue to get better with double inverted rubbers? I find even more interesting to find out.