If you are the CNT boss, what would you do?

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cmon i expect you to lose 9-11 in the 7th after Zeio pulls the illegal hook serves at 9-9 (He will be hiding the contact point behind his long long posts)

we all will pay top dollars to see that match, don't you dare giving up too early!
You are right!!
Judging by the directions of chinese players.
We need proper umpires from all 4 sides to catch illegal serves 🙈

Well, im up for it!
But no matter what, hell no to cnt job.
I dont have the desire like zeio has on these national team jobs.
I treat them as friends (aka more social).

To be honest, it will be nice to meet actual members in person. I have connected with quite a few on personal level already.
 
says Making a beautiful shot is most important; winning is...
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Esn been around since 1990s
I wonder what is the first hybrid out there.
Butterfly had a few when I was a kid
Tackifire was an improved version to some other model
Apologies:
Let me rephrase my earlier statement:
CNT start getting their arse handed to them at around the same time ESN started to come out with Hybrids. Now the non-CNT can also tackified their game without boosting. Igor Novick will be so happy.

to an amended version as follows:
CNT start getting their arse handed to them at around the same time Eurozone pro players started to use tacky / hybrids and develop tactics and strategies for it.
 
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Apologies:
Let me rephrase my earlier statement:
CNT start getting their arse handed to them at around the same time ESN started to come out with Hybrids. Now the non-CNT can also tackified their game without boosting. Igor Novick will be so happy.

to an amended version as follows:
CNT start getting their arse handed to them at around the same time Eurozone pro players started to use tacky / hybrids and develop tactics and strategies for it.
but you didn't answer the question

what would you do if you the boss?
get Aruna to teach them how to hit a FH ball? :)
 
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I would try to figure out why the “old” training methods work less well on the younger generation.

And maybe get a mental support team for Wang.

On the other hand, a quick glance at the world rankings both men’s and women’s are completely dominated by China. They deliver all 5 Olympic Champions, all world champions, both world team champions, won all WTT smashes and finals.

I think they’re doing just fine.
 
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but you didn't answer the question

what would you do if you the boss?
get Aruna to teach them how to hit a FH ball? :)
Tony,
You asking the wrong guy, I have been consistently with the opinion, the TT world needs more variety of winners to spice things up. For as long as I can remember, the TT podium always feel like Chinese Super League event with all four semi-finalist from the same team. I gets kinda old. This new development, Gozo likes. Gozo gives thumbs up. Gozo no wanna change nothin'!
 
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It's way overblown. CNT has achieved all the major milestones for 2024.

There were way more bumpy years for CHN on the men's and women's sides in the early to mid 2000s. KOR in MT SF at WTTC 2001, Samsonov at World Cup 2001, PRK in WT F at Asian Games 2002, Boll at World Cup 2002, Schlager, Joo Saehyuk, Chen Weixing (and Korbel to a lesser extent) at WTTC 2003, AUT in MT Grp (Schlager again) and JPN in WT Final 4 at WTTC 2004, RSM, Waldner, Li Jiawei and Kim Hyang-mi at Athens 2004, Maze at WTTC 2005, Boll at World Cup 2005, Li Ching/Ko Lai Chak at Asian Games 2006, RSM at World Cup 2007...

The new and old are in a transition period. For instance, ML, back when he was the new kid on the block, lost a lot by CNT standard in MS and MT for the London 2012 cycle. World Cup 2008, ATTC 2009, World Cup 2009, WTTC 2010, World Team Cup 2010, Korea Open 2012 and World Cup 2012. Other than World Cup 2008 and 2009 and WTTC 2010, the way he lost in the others was ugly.

In the past, after the Olympics, they would enter the typical 休整期/rest period. As a tradition starting in 2004, the Olympic medalists from all disciplines would also visit HKG and MAC, which usually spans a week. Up until 2016, there would be a few Opens in Europe, World Cup and WTGF left on the ITTF calendar and that's it. Arguably, the sign of change first appeared in 2019 as T2 Diamond, which started out as T2 APAC in 2017, messed up the schedule and Qin Zhijian and Li Sun openly criticized it (1, 2), but the hectic and chaotic schedule became the new norm in 2021, the year WTT officially started.

For example, because of the pandemic, WTTC 2021 was postponed from April to November, therefore, after Tokyo 2020, they chose to use the period from August to October to adjust by skipping WTT CT Budapest 2021, WTT SCT Doha 2021 (collided with National Games 2021), ATTC 2021 (which wrecked the draws for ATTC 2023) and WTT CT Tunis 2021. In the buildup ahead of WTTC 2021, they sent a B+ team and dominated WTT CT Lasko 2021 and WTT CT Novo Mesto 2021, winning 7 out of 8 titles.

After Paris 2024, because of China Smash 2024 and ATTC 2024 (the latter of which doubled as the continental qualification tournament for WTTC 2025 with all the placement matches), the rest period has been severely compressed and only FZD and CM took a real break. For those two events, it's clear the idea is 以老帶新, literally to bring the new up to speed with the old, LSD/KM winning XD in both events marked the successful transfer of power from WCQ/SYS.

LSD won MS/MD/XD at WTT CS Almaty 2024, MS at WTT CS Macao 2024, MS/XD at China Smash 2024, MT/XD and reached the MS F and MD QF at ATTC 2024. Before finishing in MS SF at WTT CS Montpellier 2024, he also took part in MT of the National Championships 2024 but chose to sit out. All of the above occurred back-to-back in the last 2 months.

XP beat F. Lebrun and Moregard before losing to eventual winner LSD at China Smash 2024. Losing to LYJ at ATTC 2024 and eventual winner F. Lebrun at WTT CS Montpellier 2024 were within reason.

It comes down to WCQ, LJK and LGY, but the latter two are on the way out, so the real concern is WCQ (losing to Moregard at Paris 2024), which is not surprising as I cautioned ahead of Paris 2024.

On the women's side, an A- team was dispatched for ATTC 2024 but WMY's taking a leave left behind a vaccum that exceeded the capability of an underprepared CXT to fulfill. As noted, 天時、地利、人和/right time, right place and right people and 時也、運也、命也/time, luck and fate. We all knew Kim Kum Yong, Pyon Song Gyong and Cha Su Yong were no chopped livers after Asian Games 2022 and Paris 2024, distracting CHN in the same manner as IND did at WTTC 2024. Harimoto donned the new role of Hurricane 2024 and Hirano, Hurricane 2017 showed up again to wreak havoc, completing what they failed at WTTC 2024.

WYD losing to Harimoto and Kim Kum Yong and CXT losing to Hirano, Harimoto and Goda hurt a lot but is bearable as they are also on the way out. Unlike XP, Shi Xunyao and Kuai Man losing to DHK (WS and WT bronze) and SYB, respectively, are bigger problems. QTY, as the 6th player on the team, losing to Harimoto was inevitable.
 
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I think CNT isn't in trouble. Despite numerous hiccups, they earned every gold from the Olympics and Smashes. Yes, the dominance isn't as strong as it used to be during the past 15 years (the women's team is still rock solid), but there are essential reasons for the more even competition:

1) The rest of the world (Europe + Calderano) caught up.
2) The introduction of tacky/semi-tacky hybrids had a huge impact (K3, DIgnics 09c, C-series from Andro/XIOM, DNA H, etc). Players learned how to use them, thus generating more power, spin, and successfully counter-top against the CNT.
3) The new leaders (WCQ and LSD) are still young and shaky, the known chockers (LGY and LJK) still choke, and the older titans skip half of the events (FZD and ML).

ZJK and ML also choked a lot in the younger age but then dominated the whole decade. There is a high chance WCQ and LSD become more stable and the discussion will be obsolete.
 
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Lobby the government to completely nationalise DHS and refuse to let any H3s/W968s leave China? :cool:

JK of course, China are still doing pretty well.

Screenshot 2024-10-28 104555.png
 
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The world ranking list is from today and dating back 12 months basically.
There is no doubt that 6 months ago, CNT still look very bullet proof.

Paris was very tight
2 major tournaments since then have shown cracks in the system.
no more ball issue to blame. It isn't just Japanese players causing trouble.

What I know

Ma Long was asked to play on for 2 years already, but did that solve any issue?
More resources has already been shifted towards B team and the newish C team.
CNT is taking away U12 responsibilities from provincial, in the formation of the C team.
B team is starting to have more WTT game time, where this wasn't the case in ITTF pro tour/world tour days.

Back then, you remove the top 3, the 2nd 3, or even the 3rd 3 will win straights.
now, the top 3 is shaky and dropping games is the norm, the 2nd top 3, is a gamble, the 3rd top 3 is in the loosing is inevitable group.

So, what else can be done?

players likely out in this cycle
Ma Long
LJK
LGY
ZQH
LDS
ZK

womens
CM
WYD
CXT
ZR

Womens list is shorter as a few of them retired from the national team earlier this year.

CNT has tested many A team and B team players in 2024 with 42 womens and 43 mens taking part in total.
Most of them are under the ages of early 20s

There is a lot of big shoes to be filled, especially the 2nd 3s and 3rd 3s
 
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Tokyo 2020 was just as tight. WTTC 2021? They dropped the MD title by intention and bagged 4 titles. ATTC 2023? 5-title sweep. WTTC 2023? 5-title sweep. Asian Games 2022? They dropped the WD title that they hardly worked on at that point and bagged 6 titles. World Cup 2024? 2-title sweep.

So until a non-CNT player, pair or team wins all the way at the 3 majors again or the Grand Smash for the first time, all this thought experiment is merely 一廂情願/wishful thinking. CCY made that mistake.

XD
F XX/LSW 3-4 Mizutani/Ito

MS
SF ML 4-3 Ovtcharov
SF FZD 4-3 LYJ

MT
QF FZD 3-2 Gauzy
SF ML 3-2 LSS
F FZD 3-2 Ovtcharov
 
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Hi there, newbie but oldie, maybe even boomer player (60 years old) and I recently moved in a small town with a cool club.

This conversation is exactly the same USA BasketBall is worrying about with Serbia and France catching up, and more than that: euro hoopers getting the MVP, DPOY, ROTY awards last season in the NBA.

And it's exactly the same problem with China. as the USA in basket ball, China will develop a ridiculous amount of skillful talents. But there are 2 same issues:

1- the AAU and NCAA: teenagers play only versus teenagers U11, U13, U15, U17, high school, college the NCAA so. They face grown up adults and experienced people only in their NBA rookie season... when euro teens have been facing adults in national leagues, Euroleague players and even ex NBA vets, and there are many of them in the Euroleague. Therefore, you get guys like Nikola Jokic being awarded 3 MVPs already, Luka Doncic being only 25 and already shooting 30 pts per game, Victor Wembanyama making ridiculous stats in his rookie year rookie of the year 2024, not mentioning the 4th Defensive Player Of The Year award for Rudy Gobert, Giannis Antetokounmpo MVP in 2019 and 2020, just think of it: not a single US born hooper has been MVP since 2018 ! and now 2 years in a row the first pick at the draft is NOT from the US ! Wembanyama then Risacher. The "avengers" had to fight in the semis of the last Olympics with Serbia leading by 15 at some point !!! the women french squad was leading against the USA women 90% of the final, USA finally winning only by 1 !!! in women table tennis, Japan let their girls face adults in T-League very soon !

And what the coaches say in the CNT ? exactly the same: their kids do not face experienced adults soon enough, lack of competition, in Europe kids have to compete in adults leagues since they are 10 or 11, like the Lebruns, the Cotons, and even Nolan Johnston playing in the tier 4 adult league in France at only 12 !

Plus: the atmosphere is a whole lot different: it's loud, tough, it's rude sometime with trash talking from the crowd being packed in a small sized venue, meaning the crowd is only 4 or 5 meters behind you ! therefore facing a vibrant Montpellier crowd or a hostile pro-chinese crowd in Asia is easy for them, they know what it is since they are 10 or 11 ! some ignorant US journalists asked Luka Doncic if it was difficult to endure the "loud NBA fans in the arenas"... he 's been very polite but he was laughing hard inside: when you face hostile crowds in Belgrade, Istanbul, Athens or Salonique, NBA is easy ! and much more: it's easier to score gazillions of points in the NBA, the FIBA court being smaller, with rules giving an edge to defense, so, and this is the second issue:

2- the fundamentals: like the NBA, the chinese system relies on pure athleticism, raw power in shot production, but not so much on creativity, defense skills, pace variations, effect variations. When you talk about "magicians" what are the names you mention ? Truls, Gauzy, Alexis Lebrun sometimes, Koki Niwa was one of them, the only chinese player who had that was Xu Xin, and he didn't use a lot of different chops: did he chop blocked ? not easy to do with an RPB, did he chop in defense far from the table like Gauzy or Ouaiche ? nope. This creativity happens because of 2 main concepts:
- let the player be "free" enough to improvise as sooner as possible, the chinese textbook is known to be very restrictive, efficient for sure, but restrictive. and it's in the China's DNA: the people first, the individual is diluted in this system.
- with that freedom in improvisation comes new ways of thinking the game, new tactics, there's no Truls clone in China, no Waldner clone (and they tried to for a while !), slowing the game ? yes we can, using dozens of different service variations ? yes we can. This approach comes at a very young age because you have to use your IQ and fighting spirit as a kid when you face an adult way more experienced and powerful than you are ! you won't beat and adult with power, nor with speed, you have to do something else.

So if I were LGL, I'd change the youth development system: let the kids face adults, build more competitions for them, let them improvise and let the crowd trash talk to them, or you'll get poor cry babies like Wang Chuqin or Lin Shidong being terrified having to play outside of Asia. Why do you think Liu Guoliang do not give Europe so much WTT events ? the last 2 champions in Europe: only 1 title over 4 for China, he knows that, Paris 2003, Paris 2024 with Wang Chuqin out too soon, they don't want to let Europe be the event hosting leader again.

But thing is: Europe is the home of sports, Europe always catches up or is the world leader for football (champion's league), volleyball (Italian SuperLega), rugby (champion's cup with now 4 south african squads playing it !), tennis with Wimbledon and Roland Garros, Nadal, Federer, Djokovic, Alcaraz, Sinner, Rune, 3 leagues for basketball and 2 of them being stronger than the G League and the NCAA (Eurocup and BCL, yeah I love basketball), handball of course, cycling, all those sports are happening all year long, China hosts events for sure in those sports, but the atmosphere is not loud, not vibrant, the crowd isn't passionate even if they cheerish for Stephen Curry and Basket Ball in general now, have you ever watched an ATP or WTA tournament in Shanghai ? that's sleepy...
 
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Tokyo 2020 was just as tight. WTTC 2021? They dropped the MD title by intention and bagged 4 titles. ATTC 2023? 5-title sweep. WTTC 2023? 5-title sweep. Asian Games 2022? They dropped the WD title that they hardly worked on at that point and bagged 6 titles. World Cup 2024? 2-title sweep.

So until a non-CNT player, pair or team wins all the way at the 3 majors again or the Grand Smash for the first time, all this thought experiment is merely 一廂情願/wishful thinking. CCY made that mistake.

XD
F XX/LSW 3-4 Mizutani/Ito

MS
SF ML 4-3 Ovtcharov
SF FZD 4-3 LYJ

MT
QF FZD 3-2 Gauzy
SF ML 3-2 LSS
F FZD 3-2 Ovtcharov
so according to you, everything is according to plan?
 
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You are right!!
Judging by the directions of chinese players.
We need proper umpires from all 4 sides to catch illegal serves 🙈

Well, im up for it!
But no matter what, hell no to cnt job.
I dont have the desire like zeio has on these national team jobs.
I treat them as friends (aka more social).

To be honest, it will be nice to meet actual members in person. I have connected with quite a few on personal level already.
The rules says the ball must not be hidden from opponent's POV, you just neeed 1 referee watching a camera that follows the receiver, VAR system: the umpire can ask for assistance from the VAR referee if he or she is not sure + the tennis system with players using 1 challenge per game, if they win the challenge remains, if they loose no more challenge for the rest of the game. Simple as that ! or you'll get again and again this

The WTT does not generate enough money yet, not enough prize money, players outside the top 50 facing huge budget issues, 4 referees more per game ? too much, 1 referee in a cabin with one camera per side = job done

(But hey... shhhh... we all know the major service problem is from China, why do you think there's no more SVAR (Service VAR) in table tennis ? Ma Long made clear he hates that ! no more SVAR then, LSD and WCQ are the most prominent service cheaters in the WTT)
 
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李隼回应近期国乒输球问题,推心置腹说了8点:

1、第一
巴黎奥运会,包揽5枚金牌,队员付出巨大

2、第二
奥运会后接着参加了澳门冠军赛、中国大满贯赛,太累了

3、第三
亚锦赛输球,主要是队员训练不够系统,身体和心理恢复不够充分,状态不是最佳

4、第四
法国冠军赛输球,核心主力没有参赛,毕竟是次主力和小将,顶不住外协强有力冲击,但是都尽力了

5、第五
年轻运动员不是一下子就能顶上来,需要接受一次一次比赛历练,也需要时间成长,希望对输球多一些理解和包容

6、第六
比赛有输赢,不管输球还是赢球都有收获,及时发现问题及时解决问题,早发现问题比晚发现问题好,把问题消灭在萌芽状态

7、第七
德国冠军赛开始,主力陆续恢复参赛

8、第八
国乒全面争胜的信心和决心不变
 
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And the source.

国乒回应近期比赛成绩起伏:严肃对待问题,及时认真总结
http://m.cyol.com/gb/articles/2024-10/29/content_X5GyjgTpEJ.html
刚刚结束WTT蒙特利埃冠军赛的中国乒乓球队直接转战阿曼,参加10月28日开始的WTT马斯喀特常规挑战赛。国乒总教练李隼接受记者采访,针对近期队伍参赛情况进行了小结。

“国乒在巴黎奥运会上首次包揽五枚金牌,全队上下团结一心,付出了巨大努力和心血。WTT澳门冠军赛和中国大满贯赛事结束后,全队进入调整期,几名主力队员没有全部参加到近期赛事中,更多年轻队员承担起比赛任务。”李隼指出,近期主力队员由于训练不够系统,身体和心理恢复还不充分,竞技状态未达最佳。在随之而来的亚锦赛上,男队和女队都出现一定问题,队伍回到北京后正进行全面细致的总结。

在WTT蒙彼利埃冠军赛上,国乒男、女队都无缘冠军。李隼说:“近期赛事中,不同队伍的选手展现出的竞争力让我们的年轻运动员感到了强烈冲击,也帮助他们发现了存在的问题,明确了努力的方向。在新奥运周期开始之际,新的竞争格局尚未形成,各队都有争冠机会。国乒的年轻运动员需要接受更多比赛历练,也需要时间成长,这些都是符合竞技体育规律的。面对比赛中暴露出来的问题,教练组会严肃对待、及时总结,能从这一时失利中收获什么才是关键。希望广大球迷也能多一些理解和包容。

在11月举行的WTT法兰克福冠军赛中,国乒主力选手将陆续恢复参赛。李隼说:“队伍现阶段以赛带练,不论赢球还是输球,都为下一阶段的备战工作提供了有价值的参考。”

“请大家相信国乒不畏困难、全力争胜的信心和决心,”李隼说:“我们将全力打好今年后续的几站比赛,也感谢大家对国乒一直以来的关心和支持。”
 
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so according to you, everything is according to plan?
As elaborated by Li Sun earlier today.

国乒在巴黎奥运会上首次包揽五枚金牌,全队上下团结一心,付出了巨大努力和心血。WTT澳门冠军赛和中国大满贯赛事结束后,全队进入调整期,几名主力队员没有全部参加到近期赛事中,更多年轻队员承担起比赛任务。

在新奥运周期开始之际,新的竞争格局尚未形成,各队都有争冠机会。国乒的年轻运动员需要接受更多比赛历练,也需要时间成长,这些都是符合竞技体育规律的。
The China table tennis team won all five gold medals for the first time at the Paris Olympics. The whole team worked together and made great efforts. After the WTT Champions Macao and the China Smash, the whole team entered a period of adjustment. Several main players did not participate in the recent events, and more young players took on the task of competition.

At the beginning of the new Olympic cycle, the new competitive landscape has not yet formed, and all teams have the chance to compete for the title. The young athletes of the national table tennis team need to be exposed to more competitions and also need time to grow, which are in line with the laws of competitive sports.
 
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so the CNT headcoach had this to say

1. the team made huge strides (progress/sacrifice) to secure 5 golds at Paris OG
2. after OG, they took part in champion macau, china smash, was too tiring
3. loss in attc was the unsystematic training of the players, players physical and mental recovery was not sufficient, so the players condition was not at their best.
4. loosing Champion France, the core players didn't take part. so other main players and younger player could not withstand the force of the foreigners, but they tried their best.
5. young players couldn't replace the experienced ones, and require time and 1 event at a time to grow and to learn from loosing.
6. There are winners and losers in the game, and there are rewards whether you lose or win. Find problems in time and solve them in time. It is better to find problems early than late,
7. Champions in Germany, the main players have recovered and will take part
8. The confidence and determination of the CNT to win all-round remains unchanged
 
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