Is Ma Long alcoholic ?

[Mtcollins]

Not only do genetics influence susceptibility to addiction, but epigenetics as well. There's actually quite a lot of research.

 

[Tryzerlol]

I think the claim that genetics has *nothing* to do with addiction is a very bold claim, ttmonster. Alcoholism had an abuse and social dimension as well.

None of the two things have anything to do with genetics either though


Edit:

I should go to sleep, ignore this post.

 

[NextLevel]

None of the two things have anything to do with genetics either though


Edit:

I should go to sleep, ignore this post.

Then delete your response and stop trying to one up someone based on your inability to grasp his point.


Edit: I should go to sleep, ignore this post.

 

[ttmonster]

NL, I agree with the social and cultural dimensions, it has also a lot to do with parents and what is normal in a particular household and what is not, I can tell personally in my family its looked down up by my parents but that has not stopped me from trying it or brainwashed me into thinking any form or degree drinking is a social evil , but how can one claim "Well, a lot of people (especially in China) can drink a lot and not become alcoholic..." , is there any evidence to suggest that a certain race has a predisposition to becoming alcoholic or not becoming an alcoholic ? I have not come across anything that claims such NL , the only things I have heard / seen is the degree to which a person can hold liquor depends on the weight and the fat content of the person and also depends on whether the person regularly drinks socially or not and whether the person is dehydrated etc. .... at the end of the day its substance abuse like a lot of other substances , and I think there are a lot of things out there which when not taken in moderation could be construed as abuse but otherwise its socially acceptable ...

I think the claim that genetics has *nothing* to do with addiction is a very bold claim, ttmonster. Alcoholism had an abuse and social dimension as well. Just taking a drug on a regular basis is not quite the same as being an addict.

 

[NextLevel]

I think I actually have come across someone making such a suggestion in an academic context, but that is neither here nor there for me. Group statistics do not predict individual behavior.

 

[Der_Echte]

That stuff, to over-simplify a complicated subject, is much more related to individual and collective character to an extent much more than we realize. What affects character is also complex, DNA has some role, but it isn't even half the equation.

 

[Mtcollins]

I just looked into it, and it looks like ALDH2*2 polymorphism may be what protects Asians from alcoholism. I never knew that about the Asian population before. Yay for learning!

 

[Der_Echte]

I think I actually have come across someone making such a suggestion in an academic context, but that is neither here nor there for me. Group statistics do not predict individual behavior.

If we characterize group statistics into the SOCIAL factors, I can directly relate how some of that potentially (and negatively) works.

Back in the 70s and 80s in the military, it was very acceptable to drink heavily and work hard. (Work hard play hard thing) It was downright encouraged. it was glorified to a huge extent. You were required to sing tales during the morning group jogs saying how great it was to drink all night, come to fitness training, puke it up on the PT track, and continue some more miles.

In after hour OFFICIAL dinners and smaller semi-official settings, the stuff was nearly poured down your throat. You would be put in front of the group and demanded to quickly consume large amounts, there were numerous ways to catch everyone up in that. The dinner punch bowl would have more alcohol than kool aid in it. You would be required to take to slugs of it for the lightest of imaginary infractions.It was a deliberate scheme by senior leadership to get everyone drunk off their azz and stay that way. You declined, you were so socially and officially harassed it was no joke.

Such social pressures existed outside the military in those times and they were real, and still are, although that particular situation has shown much improvement.

Everyone is responsible for what they do. Somehow, in many cultures (think Korea) (Think some aspects of USA) you are way less responsible, both criminally and civilly, way less responsible if you were drunk and didn't know what you were doing.

Then we all have own definition of what is alcoholic. My wife thinks one is alcoholic if they drink more than two beers in a week. Some people do not call it that unless your BAC is over .25 at 10 AM for more than 2-3 days a week.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

K here is my take on addiction mechanis. First of all I know very less about biotech, neverthless I will try to convey what I know. As MtCollins wrote, Science has confirmed addiction patterns are heavily determined by epigenetics.

So, what epigenetics means is just transforming the behaviour of DNA without altering the strand of DNA. It acts like off and on mechanism.

Each human being in this planet has the nose of his forefathers born 50 millions years ago. Their lifestyle slowly affect the DNA strand. So, if my forefathers are heavily into alchohol or smoking and that was genetically expressed, I carry that mechanisms within me which are dormant and waiting for external stimulus to switch it on. Then, there is downhill from then on.

Addiction levels for alchohol after repeated consumption remains around every 1-3/10 persons.

Highest additictive substances in descending order

Heroine
Cocaine
Nicotine
Alcohol
Caffeine
Marijuana

This is the common scientific consensus and probabilistic speaking there is like 50% chance for an addicive behaviour if we already have those epigenes within us.

Now, Science is into new stuff called genome sequencing. It is been carried out only on very few persons. But after slicing the DNA, we get to know to what behaviours, diseases and addictions we are prone to. It is a future science and like in 3-4 years those tests would become much cheaper.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Highest additictive substances in descending order

Heroine
Cocaine
Nicotine
Alcohol
Caffeine
Marijuana

Siva, I want to edit your list for you to make it more accurate. You forgot the biggest addiction: TABLE TENNIS!!!

So here is the edited list of addictive substances in order of addictiveness:

Table Tennis
Heroine
Cocaine
Nicotine
Alcohol
Caffeine
Marijuana



Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

Siva, I want to edit your list for you to make it more accurate. You forgot the biggest addiction: TABLE TENNIS!!!

So here is the edited list of addictive substances in order of addictiveness:

Table Tennis
Heroine
Cocaine
Nicotine
Alcohol
Caffeine
Marijuana



Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

I am burying my head under the mud like a rabbit out of shame and hopelessness

 

[ttmonster]

This is what I could unearth from my limited web research ...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2715956/

So the statement "genetics has no bearing" is not correct , it does not in terms of generalized trait for a race but in terms of inheritance of from one generation to the next which is more familial ... I still find the statement asians have more resistance to alcohol a little too naive ...

 

[Persistence TT]

genetics is 0 without stimuli and vice versa. Its not a one lane issue, but complicated as der echte stated. dont burn your brain guys its a pointless conversation really

 

[ttmonster]

@TTFrenzy , this is why I don't think this conversation is pointless ... as the world is becoming smaller due to technology , there is an increasing tendency everywhere to make generalizations or stereotypes based on race , and if you see most of them start off as harmless as , "Chinese are genetically blessed as table tennis players" or "Chinese are bad drivers" or "Indians are good in maths" or "Indian food is spicy" and end up in as bad as "African americans have a predisposition towards crime" or "Muslims are terrorists" or "Mexicans are rapists" ... unless we collectively try to change the thought process and try to understand the real factors that go into building those stereotypes, which are socio - economic and nothing else , we will never get out of the mess we are creating all over the world ... and I mean all of us

 

[Persistence TT]

@TTFrenzy , this is why I don't think this conversation is not pointless ... as the world is becoming smaller due to technology , there is an increasing tendency everywhere to make generalizations or stereotypes based on race , and if you see most of them start off as harmless as , "Chinese are genetically blessed as table tennis players" or "Chinese are bad drivers" or "Indians are good in maths" or "Indian food is spicy" and end up in as bad as "African americans have a predisposition towards crime" or "Muslims are terrorists" or "Mexicans are rapists" ... unless we collectively try to change the thought process and try to understand the real factors that go into building those stereotypes, which are socio - economic and nothing else , we will never get out of the mess we are creating all over the world ... and I mean all of us

Yeah im with you but we tend to forget that smart people who dont generalize stuff like that and know what the phrase "unique individual" means dont actually bother to get in conversation with idiots that state "africans are like that" and "chinese are like that" . So my overall impression of the internet/social media and stuff is that we see mostly stupid people (which i like to believe is a minority) expressing their opinions over videos topic etc etc.

Most people just watch the video,read the article learn what they like and go on with their lives, they dont bother commenting/arguing. So my opinion is just because the internet is mostly full of trolls and attention whores, does not mean that all of the world is racist/stupid

But on the other hand you have a point on the thought process but still the internet is only a small part of a person's life. Let's take my favorite friend kowabonga for example, how many times in this forum did he really tried to get into a constructive dialogue without starting trolling/insulting and stuff?

p.s. sorry kowabong i just couldnt resist

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I just felt like posting this definition from Urban Dictionary for you guys:

kowabunga
"Great!"

Not beatnik, not hippy, not swahili, but early sixties, California surfer. A corrupted version of the Hawaiian "kupaianaha," which means "fantastic," and any other synonym of "wonderful" you care to choose. The word probably entered greater American consciousness through the surfer moves of the period.

For what it's worth the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles spoke "surfer" with a little "valley" thrown in.

"Nice ride, dude. Kowabunga!"


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[rokphish]

Well, for what it's worth, I had no intention of causing debates with my statement.

I lived for a couple of years in China so I know first hand the amount of drinking they have. Well, at least the ones I encountered.

I lived in USA for about 8 years before and had never seen the same amount of consumption, not even close.

I also do business travels across China, so countless business meetings, across provinces and the many cities. All if not most would include drinking with variety of alcohol consumption from mild to heavy. Usually depending upon the guests as the host would be considerate and match the guests.

My uncle was one of province leader officials, so I also had my fair share of city official dinner events where drinking is heavier and would include more heavy alcohol, the average is 40-50% alcohol content (Baijiu) and some beers.

Went to a few Chinese weddings, and the drinking is very heavy especially at smaller city. Went to few school organized events, drinking there too, with the teachers, principals, and officials. Lots of Baijiu going around.

Going back to my school years in China. Most of my classmates are Koreans, some Japanese. Most if not all of my Korean friends can drink heavily, even the women have very high alcohol tolerance level. They also drink a lot of Soju which averages in 20% compares to regular beers which are abound 4-5%. The several Japanese friends both men and women are not bad too.

There were classmates from USA, Canada, Africa, etc but they don't drink as heavily as the Koreans and Japanese.

These classmates, I see everyday for about two years. With the amount of alcohol they drink almost everyday, every weekends without fail, I didn't see anyone was in trouble or behaving badly due to their drinking.

My chinese in-laws two of them can drink a lot of beers and Baijiu and both of them don't have problems with alcohol. One is estate developers and the other accountant.

I came from no alcohol background. First time I drank was when I was in USA in my late teens. For a time for a few months I got involved with Harley Davidson bikers clubs in the city. Every weekend there's get together, live music, drinking, etc.

During my two years of school in China, almost every day, I drank with my classmates. Varies from light to heavy during the week. Heavier toward weekends and special occasions, birthdays and what not.

I went to Korea to visit some of my Korean classmates, and during my visit there were a lot of drinking as well with my friends and their friends.

After I got back home to my country, I don't drink at all. Maybe 1-2 small bottle of Jack Daniel with coke for a year for nostalgic reasons.

The last 5 years I go to China once a year for a month each time. I drank some when I go there. And nothing when Ivm back home.

No problem.

So, yeah, I don't have scientific research to support my statement. But I experienced it myself, and from what I had seen for years and still seeing I can say that "A lot of people can drink but not become alcoholic." this might not be the norm for the whole Asia, or not the norm for China/Korean/Japan. I just stating from my small experience from very limited time.

As for the "especially Chinese" I wrote that just as an example that I have experience with. China, Korea, and Japan have drinking as their cultural norm. Embedded within business and social events. This help with giving some reason as why they can drink a lot but not become alcoholic.


I know that there are serious problems with alcoholics/alcoholism. There are a lot of problem in China because of alcoholics/alcoholism too.

 

[Der_Echte]

I was in Korea in the 80s and when it became 4 PM, EVERYONE when weather permitted sat on grass in circles in groups of 4-24 each with a guitar singing songs and drinking Rice wine and Soju. Back then it was more like 30% alcohol and had a stronger effect. A "Combat" sized bottle (around 1 liter) would cost about 1 USD. You could literally drink enough alcohol for one dollar to get you stone cold drunk and maybe dead.

These college students would get drunk of their arse and pass out. I do not know for the life of me how they ever did homework assignments. They must have had classes start late, so maybe they did their homework in the morning with a real serious hangover.

Doing that every day (and 3x more on weekend) wasn't considered alcoholic. You had to be still passed out drunk at 9 AM and drink again before lunch to be considered an alcoholic in that place and time.

A study recently showed Koreans per capita purchase (and drink) (They wouldn't throw away all that precious stuf without drinking it, right?) the most alcohol of any nation on this planet.

If that study was done 25 years ago, they woulda hammered the rest of the world by a 2:1 margin at a minimum.

 

[ttmonster]

Growing up whenever somebody boasted about addiction .. the frequently quoted example was ... I know so and so who is addicted to taking snake bites under tongues .. you can find some weird videos of that .. but here is an article from Hindu ...

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...e-venom-arrested-in-kerala/article6328195.ece

I was in Korea in the 80s and when it became 4 PM, EVERYONE when weather permitted sat on grass in circles in groups of 4-24 each with a guitar singing songs and drinking Rice wine and Soju. Back then it was more like 30% alcohol and had a stronger effect. A "Combat" sized bottle (around 1 liter) would cost about 1 USD. You could literally drink enough alcohol for one dollar to get you stone cold drunk and maybe dead.

These college students would get drunk of their arse and pass out. I do not know for the life of me how they ever did homework assignments. They must have had classes start late, so maybe they did their homework in the morning with a real serious hangover.

Doing that every day (and 3x more on weekend) wasn't considered alcoholic. You had to be still passed out drunk at 9 AM and drink again before lunch to be considered an alcoholic in that place and time.

A study recently showed Koreans per capita purchase (and drink) (They wouldn't throw away all that precious stuf without drinking it, right?) the most alcohol of any nation on this planet.

If that study was done 25 years ago, they woulda hammered the rest of the world by a 2:1 margin at a minimum.

 

[fais]

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