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This is where some people don't understand. Players can improve and become stronger, not all the opponents decline and become weaker or weakest.
Is ma long the GOAT ?
- Thread starter Matheus Oliveira
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My conclusion: no one has ever been stronger than Ma Long and that is why he just keeps on winning.
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Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
The team and singles events were held together back then up until 1997. Waldner beat Jiang Jialiang in the team event for the very 1st time and that snowballed to the collapse of the Chinese team in the singles. Waldner was in the bottom half and Jiang Jialiang was in the top half. Yu Shentong was the only one who made it to SF after taking out Jiang Jialiang in the QF, before losing to Persson.
says
Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
Maybe players could overtake and defeat winners more often back then because winners weren't dominant enough to hold the title? Reverse view of itI agree that WTTC is the most prestigious, and OG is second on the list.
Note I wrote "table tennis only event." Not multi-sport event.
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Come on, did JW beat any former WTTC MS winner (s) in WTTC MS event? Yes or No. It is not a difficult question and JW's victory over former WTTC winner JJL in team event doesn't help your argument on singles champion gold content because those are two separate tournaments.
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Thanks Zeio for the videos that you keep on posting in this forum as well as your input. I highly respect your contribution. In this topic though, I beg to differ with you. I have followed closely your opinion on this topic but just like some, I differ with your perspective on this. No one chooses their opponents. You have to play and win/ loose against the player standing on the opposite side of the table. You don't pick the greatest player based on their one or two matches but based on their overall results which to my view Ma longs statistics stands out among the rest including Waldner, Zhang jike or Wang liqin.
I will give an example of Wang liqin. From the period of 1999 at 19 years of age to the year 2007 Wang liqin show cased one of the most amazing domination in table tennis that some people thought of him as the best that has ever been. His win ratio against other players was the best before Ma long's era began. For me just because of win ratio, I previously would have cast my vote on him. But unfortunately he was not able to win olympic gold and and world cups which somehow makes him not feature in the discussion of GOAT. Wang hao and Malin could not win olympic gold and WTTC respectively. All these cannot be attributed to what ifs and what nots or which player they faced. They all had their chances but did not use them irrespective of the opponent on the other side or the skills they showcased.
Every player has enough chances to utilize. Some use their chances early like Zhang jike and some use their chances later in life like Ma long. At the end of it all, all these titles can be summed up and can be used to compare their greatness. There is a saying that even the greatest would need to overcome injury and other challenges to win just like woods did in Golf, Jordan did in basketball, Federer in tennis and Ma long in table tennis. Every one has his losses at one time or the other irrespective of the opponents.
Chinese or not he has won more than others. Combine them all and compare. Olympic gold, WTTCs, chinese national games and all the others major Pro tours.
I will give an example of Wang liqin. From the period of 1999 at 19 years of age to the year 2007 Wang liqin show cased one of the most amazing domination in table tennis that some people thought of him as the best that has ever been. His win ratio against other players was the best before Ma long's era began. For me just because of win ratio, I previously would have cast my vote on him. But unfortunately he was not able to win olympic gold and and world cups which somehow makes him not feature in the discussion of GOAT. Wang hao and Malin could not win olympic gold and WTTC respectively. All these cannot be attributed to what ifs and what nots or which player they faced. They all had their chances but did not use them irrespective of the opponent on the other side or the skills they showcased.
Every player has enough chances to utilize. Some use their chances early like Zhang jike and some use their chances later in life like Ma long. At the end of it all, all these titles can be summed up and can be used to compare their greatness. There is a saying that even the greatest would need to overcome injury and other challenges to win just like woods did in Golf, Jordan did in basketball, Federer in tennis and Ma long in table tennis. Every one has his losses at one time or the other irrespective of the opponents.
Chinese or not he has won more than others. Combine them all and compare. Olympic gold, WTTCs, chinese national games and all the others major Pro tours.
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says
Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
The fact is ML was favorite to beat WH in 2011. WH was notoriously known as Fat Hao already.
Even in the recent Chubby's interview, the interviewer asked this.
Even in the recent Chubby's interview, the interviewer asked this.
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I said it is overrated in assessing Ma Long's greatness. No, not generally overrated.
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How can ML grab the world title from some one else when he is the one winning it for ages
Before that ZJK held it and he defeated him 4-0 in Olympics final.
Before that ZJK held it and he defeated him 4-0 in Olympics final.
says
Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
From a news report on May 16 2011,
http://sports.163.com/11/0516/00/744R28G600051CAQ.html
http://sports.163.com/11/0516/00/744R28G600051CAQ.html
In the MS of WTTC, Ma Long keeps running into setbacks. In Zagreb 2007, he became the first Chinese player to be eliminated after losing to Joo Sehyuk, and in Yokohama 2009 and Rotterdam this year, Ma Long was considered one of the favorites to win the championship, but in these 2 SFs against Wang Hao, Ma Long exposed his unstable psychological state, having difficulties to perform at the highest level in the major. He has yet to reach the final in the WTTC.
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That's the question I've asked 3 times in this thread
How can ML grab the world title from some one else when he is the one winning it for ages
Before that ZJK held it and he defeated him 4-0 in Olympics final.
says
Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
By that logic, how about Ma Lin's greatness? Ma Lin had this to say.
http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2011-04-29/23165555906.shtml
If I achieve the Grand Slam, then I'm definitely the Greatest of my time. That's undisputable.
says
Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
How can ML grab the world title from some one else when he is the one winning it for ages
Before that ZJK held it and he defeated him 4-0 in Olympics final.
Right, thank table tennis god WH retired before him so that he could win.
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How can ML grab the world title from some one else when he is the one winning it for ages
Before that ZJK held it and he defeated him 4-0 in Olympics final.
4_0 .... An injured and not in top form zhang jike ..He had back injury in that time . Even in 2014 zjk had this injury but he managed to win a well prepared ml there . So ZJK 's injury and WH retirement werent that negative at lesst for Ma long lol
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These are arguments I have made before. It is funny arguing with a past version of yourself.
1) This is a bit of mixing and matching. The records say nothing about when/where the matches were played or whether the opponents were at certain ages or points in their careers. In a few years, we might be lauding Fan Zhendong for beating Ma Long before turning 21, for example. And that record almost certainly takes into account a lot of junior and league matches between ML and XX and ML and ZJK.
2) Ma Long did not consider himself the underdog for any of those WTTC matches. The public did not consider him the underdog in 2011 for sure and 2013 doubly sure. The perspective he brings to his losses now is better but you can see the true ML sometimes come out like when he refused to talk to the press after losing to Fan at the Asian Cup recently.
3) Moreover, what makes Ma Long look bad is not just whatever his ranking relative go Wang Hao's was, but the fact that ZJK was able to reliably beat Wang Hao in big matches over the same period.
4) The issue being flagged is simply a matter of whether Ma Long is dominating in an era of great players or not. You know an era of great players when the same people are performing at a high level almost all the time. Which is why I think there is only one other great player currently in this era but he is from a younger generation (Fan Zhendong). Maybe we should credit ML somewhat for longevity? But the point around great players is still intact. You can only beat the players in front of you, yes. But it is a very different feeling to me to see Zhang Jike beating an in-form Wang Hao vs Ma Long beating Fang Bo or a hobbled Xhang Jike. Which is why I consider 2017 to be Ma Long's best WTTC. Beating Xu Xin and FZD when both were doing well is never easy.
So to summarize - Ma Long was winning everything except the biggest matches in the cell ball era. His rise to dominance and the plastic ball coincide. But what is also unfortunate is that his biggest opponent retires and his second biggest opponent becomes a shell of himself and only one player takes their place.
I still think Ma Long is the GOAT. I just don't think he is playing in an era of great players similar to when Wang Liqin and Ma Lin clashed. It isn't his fault that ZJK and XX couldn't keep up. But it is his fault that when they were up on the cell ball era, he wasn't winning the biggest events.
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Because very often in sports you are judged at the margins by what you didn't do not what you did. Ma Lin had the Olympics gold and World Cups that Wang Liqin did not. But no one will confuse that with the difficulty of winning the stacked WTTC back then. And Ma Lin just lost to WLQ twice. Like I said, he is just making a statement about what he didn't do and how it affects how it should be regarded.
Karl Malone is easily one of the greatest players in NBA history. Yet he is downgraded for not winning a championship when that is not entirely in his control in a team sport.
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Well. People said similar things about Federer in the mid 2000s. Then what happened?
Other great players showed up and he suddenly started losing more. How to define a great player? Someone who is consistently going deep in every event even if they are not winning the titles because another great player won it.
Ma Long is clearly great. Where is his great competition now? We knew where it was in 2010 to 2015. Right now, there is really only Fan Zhendong who is relatively inexperienced.
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