Is ma long the GOAT ?

[rainneverever]

Define "his time" for ML then. From his debut on senior tournaments internationally in 2005, from his first #WR1 in 2010 or from his first WC in 2012? I bet zeio will say since 2015 because TT world is the weakest.
Also define "his time" for Grand Slam winners JW, LGL, KLH, ZJK, and non-Grand Slam winners WLQ, MLin, WH, etc.

 

[NextLevel]

As I've posted 2 times already. ML's the most decorated. That's the most generous you'll have it from me. But GOAT? Greatest of his time at best.

And how long is his time?

 

[zeio]

MLin said 我这一代, meaning my generation NOT my time. In Chinese, a generation can refer to any range from 3 years to 30 years. Since MLin specifically mentioned Grand Slam, there were 3 Grand Slam winners already and LGL is only 4 years elder than MLin. WLQ and MLin are considered one generation in CNT and WH is considered as later generation. So the generation here does not mean very long time.

MLin once said "Today I am a real man" after winning Beijing OG. Was he not a real man before?
[FONT="]“今天，我是个真正的男子汉。[/FONT]
http://2008.sohu.com/20080824/n259166696.shtml

Oh, seriously. You could do better than that. You're arguing with a fellow Chinese here. Greatest of all time is like an idiom. Ahead of one's time is another. When it comes to language, you don't translate word for word, especially for idioms.

https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/ahead+of+one's+time

ahead of one's time
In advance of current ideas, customs, or methods, as in His treatment of light showed this painter to be well ahead of his time, or Wearing trousers and smoking cigars marked Amy Lowell as a woman ahead of her time. This idiom uses time in the sense of "era" or "generation," a usage at least a thousand years old. The phrase is usually but not always used to express approval. [First half of 1900s]

 

[NextLevel]

You express yourself beautifully (no irony). But how do we know on this forum that we have the same frame of reference? How can you be sure that you've watched TT as much as others here, or vice versa? How do we reach the conclusion who understands what's valuable in TT? We all seem to value different things. I'd like others to point out what makes a GOAT. And give me the name of their candidate.

I think this is truly an internet limitation and there is really no way to address it. Punditry requires a big mouth and pen but no real knowledge. But I think it is clear that I think Ma Long is the GOAT, but that I can understand why others may disagree, with the biggest black mark being the ZJK-WH-ML triangle from 2011 to 2014.

 

[zeio]

And how long is his time?

Roughly 4 years?

 

[NextLevel]

Roughly 4 years?

So in other words, none of his achievements during the cell ball era impress you and you think he is partly a child of WH retirement, ZJK dropoff and the plastic ball? National Games and Asian Championships are just practice matches?

 

[usualsuspect]

As I've posted 2 times already. ML's the most decorated. That's the most generous you'll have it from me. But GOAT? Greatest of his time at best.

Wait, isn't "most decorated" of all time the same thing as the greatest of all time? After all, ML's list of titles and accomplishments is the best proof of success.
Even if he is born in an "easy" time with "unworthy" competitors, that means he is extremely lucky. Luck is an important factor in competitive sports. Imagine what a good tournament draw can do for a player. Just imagine ML has good tournament draws for the majority of his career.
For me, ML is the GOAT for greatest luck!
All other unlucky greats can suck it, coz they are just not as lucky as ML. Haha! I'll play the world's smallest violin for them.

 

[rainneverever]

MLin did not mean "my era" at all by saying "我这一代" in that context and I clearly explained the reason: he did not include LGL who is only 4 years elder.

 

[zeio]

Ya, I agree with you 0%.

 

[rainneverever]

Define "his time" for ML then. From his debut on senior tournaments internationally in 2005, from his first #WR1 in 2010 or from his first WC in 2012? I bet zeio will say since 2015 because TT world is the weakest.
Also define "his time" for Grand Slam winners JW, LGL, KLH, ZJK, and non-Grand Slam winners WLQ, MLin, WH, etc.

Yes, zeio just said 4 years (2015-2019) lol

 

[RidTheKid]

Who's the GOAT then? And how does ML become the GOAT according to you?

As I've posted 2 times already. ML's the most decorated. That's the most generous you'll have it from me. But GOAT? Greatest of his time at best.

 

[rainneverever]

This table is from my post 2 years ago.

Now FZD can enter the list with 2 WC and 1 grand final. ML gets one more 1 WTTC, DN one more WC, LSW one more WTTC. WR#1 also needs updates.

I think by zeio's standards, "one's time" is the no longer than the duration from the first WTTC/OG MS title (WC not considered) to the last. And he generously does not take "gold content" into consideration otherwise JW and ML has 0 WTTC MS titles.
JW 1989-1997, 8 years maxi *my bad, JW 8 years, the longest
LGL 1996-1999, 3 years maxi
KLH 1995-2000, 5 years maxi
ZJK 2011-2013, 2 years maxi
ML 2015-2019, 4 years maxi - only active player now
WLQ 2001-2007, 6 years maxi
MLin 2008, 1 year maxi
WH 2009, 1 year maxi

 

[zeio]

So in other words, none of his achievements during the cell ball era impress you and you think he is partly a child of WH retirement, ZJK dropoff and the plastic ball? National Games and Asian Championships are just practice matches?

See for yourself how Ma Long felt 8 years back.

http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2010-01-12/10314786286.shtml

　　晶报：祝贺你，登上世界第一之后，立即又卫冕了总决赛冠军。

　　马龙：谢谢，其实我并不看重世界第一，做好自己更重要。去年我只是在一般的比赛拿了几个冠军，但是在最看重的三个世界大赛上的表现比想象差一些。世界第一是对自己的肯定和鼓励，但想在真正的大赛上突破自己，还有很长的路要走。

Jing Bao: Congratulations for defending the Grand Finals title, right after becoming the World No. 1.

Ma Long: Thank you. Actually, I don't value the World No. 1. It's more important to be yourself. Last year I just won a few typical titles, but the performance in the 3 most important world tournaments was worse than I expected. Being World No. 1 is an acknowledgement and encouragement for me, but there is still a long way to go before I can break through in a real major.

http://www.ctta.cn/xwzx/ppxw/2011/1129/99699.html

　　去年摘得亚运会男单冠军后，马龙破例打开了话匣子，自己揭了伤疤，说：“我现在好歹是个洲际大赛的单打冠军了。”而那之前，他的单项只在全国比赛中得到过双打冠军，所以一直担心自己这样的成绩可能会被大家笑话，具有沉默气质的马龙轻轻说出的这句话，让人现在看起来依然挺心疼的。

After winning the men's singles in the Asian Games last year, Ma Long opened up and rubbed his nose in it. He said: "I am now at least a continental singles champion." Before that, his only win in individual events was the doubles in the national championships, so he has been worried that such a result may be laughed at by everyone, Ma Long with his silent temperament gently uttered this sentence, which begs for sympathy.

 

[zeio]

Wait, isn't "most decorated" of all time the same thing as the greatest of all time? After all, ML's list of titles and accomplishments is the best proof of success.
Even if he is born in an "easy" time with "unworthy" competitors, that means he is extremely lucky. Luck is an important factor in competitive sports. Imagine what a good tournament draw can do for a player. Just imagine ML has good tournament draws for the majority of his career.
For me, ML is the GOAT for greatest luck!
All other unlucky greats can suck it, coz they are just not as lucky as ML. Haha! I'll play the world's smallest violin for them.

Are they the same thing? I could be hallucinating here since you guys are ganging up on me.

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...st-decorated-heavyweight-of-all-time.3310541/

The question was "Most Decorated" not "Greatest of All Time." Those are 2 different things. So, yes he probably will be. Unless someone else can show a HW with more titles/"decorations"

USOC differentiates the 2 as well.

https://www.teamusa.org/News/2016/A...-Has-Become-The-Greatest-Olympian-Of-All-Time

Michael Phelps is no longer just the most decorated Olympian of all time and the best swimmer of all time.

He is the greatest Olympian of all time.

 

[yoass]

Wow, that derailed quite a bit. Usually that’s just annoying, but I find the fulminations against positions not taken here quite insightful, and entertaining to boot. Kudos to all combatants!

 

[zeio]

This is nothing. I'm battle-hardened here after years of "debate" with NextLevel, pnachtwey, agentHEX and a few others.

 

[NextLevel]

See for yourself how Ma Long felt 8 years back.

http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2010-01-12/10314786286.shtml

Jing Bao: Congratulations for defending the Grand Finals title, right after becoming the World No. 1.

Ma Long: Thank you. Actually, I don't value the World No. 1. It's more important to be yourself. Last year I just won a few typical titles, but the performance in the 3 most important world tournaments was worse than I expected. Being World No. 1 is an acknowledgement and encouragement for me, but there is still a long way to go before I can break through in a real major.

http://www.ctta.cn/xwzx/ppxw/2011/1129/99699.html

After winning the men's singles in the Asian Games last year, Ma Long opened up and rubbed his nose. He said: "I am now at least a continental singles champion." Before that, his only win in individual events was the doubles in the national championships, so he has been worried that such a result may be laughed at by everyone, Ma Long with his silent temperament gently uttered this sentence, which begs for sympathy.

I value how he felt. But I also value the objective difficulty of the achievement.

 

[zeio]

Who's the GOAT then? And how does ML become the GOAT according to you?

That one will require going into how the techniques and styles have changed over the years. It's too long to type, and I'm afraid it's out of the league of my fellow combatants here. I'd like to see how they play first before committing to that.

 

[RidTheKid]

You know I respect your knowledge and contribution immensely but we don't agree when it comes to how we rate Ma Long historically You shouldn't feel we "gang up" on you, you stand firm in your belief until you get new insights, it's life. I'm still curious what Ma Long is missing to be called the GOAT.

This is nothing. I'm battle-hardened here after years of "debate" with NextLevel, pnachtwey, agentHEX and a few others.

 

[NextLevel]

Wow, that derailed quite a bit. Usually that’s just annoying, but I find the fulminations against positions not taken here quite insightful, and entertaining to boot. Kudos to all combatants!

It is fun to debate people who are so sure they must be right that only idiots can disagree with them. Especially when you were once one of those people at a younger age and can reflect on the limited perspective of youth and how it can't see that the world is a much more interesting place than whatever you imagine it to be.

I don't even debate that much any more, I just try to understand what other people think. What people believe to be true in complex issues is often less about truth and more about the need to believe something. No one is putting ML at his best on a time machine to play Waldner at his best.