JTTA: Selection System to be Revamped for Paris 2024

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yet you are certain Miwa's brother is doomed. I seriously doubt you've lived in Japan now.

he won't answer
he knows he is in trouble for making stupid remarks that he can't back it up with

if Miwa's brother is doomed, then TB himself is a zombie as well as all of us that are higher rated than TB and lower than HT

 

[zeio]

Harimoto's post-match interview. Says he didn't win on his own, but that he had the blessing of kami-sama. He says he didn't know he saved 8 matchpoints and thought he could've endured 3 or 4 at most. He stresses that he and Togami are equals and either party could've won depending on the day. He also touches on Paris 2024.

【一問一答】張本智和が６年ぶり日本一　８度のマッチポイントしのぐ「神様に『勝て』って言われてるのかなと」／卓球
https://www.sanspo.com/article/20240128-4YLGDIX3WRNMNBY2NO45MPWV2M/?outputType=theme_paris2024

 

[zeio]

Harimoto makes a guest appearance on Toyota Times Sports.
https://youtu.be/QlKqd4Rl1kM?t=769

 

[tackyfh]

Harimoto makes a guest appearance on Toyota Times Sports.
https://youtu.be/QlKqd4Rl1kM?t=769

valuable lesson "in tense situation, focus on 1 point at a time"

Harimoto's post-match interview. Says he didn't win on his own, but that he had the blessing of kami-sama. He says he didn't know he saved 8 matchpoints and thought he could've endured 3 or 4 at most. He stresses that he and Togami are equals and either party could've won depending on the day. He also touches on Paris 2024.

【一問一答】張本智和が６年ぶり日本一　８度のマッチポイントしのぐ「神様に『勝て』って言われてるのかなと」／卓球
https://www.sanspo.com/article/20240128-4YLGDIX3WRNMNBY2NO45MPWV2M/?outputType=theme_paris2024

or to put it bluntly "I just have to play consistently and my opponent will make all the dumb mistakes".
When I read around 5ch, twitter and youtube comments, I found it surprising that japanese fans were pretty lenient towards the 8 championship points blunder of Togami. If it were CNT and their fandom, they'd have roasted the hell out of him lol

 

[NextLevel]

valuable lesson "in tense situation, focus on 1 point at a time"

or to put it bluntly "I just have to play consistently and my opponent will make all the dumb mistakes".
When I read around 5ch, twitter and youtube comments, I found it surprising that japanese fans were pretty lenient towards the 8 championship points blunder of Togami. If it were CNT and their fandom, they'd have roasted the hell out of him lol

I think the Japanese fans have it right.

 

[TensorBackhand]

he won't answer
he knows he is in trouble for making stupid remarks that he can't back it up with

if Miwa's brother is doomed, then TB himself is a zombie as well as all of us that are higher rated than TB and lower than HT

I stopped answering because I don't want to keep repeating myself to deaf ears, not because my remarks are stupid. You are all free to disagree and have a different opinion, but PLEASE do not mis-represent my statements. You have made a number of false statements.

For the sake of clarity I will only make my statement one last time here:

1) Harimoto was the most hyped young player in recent memory, called by the media as the "100 year talent" and a kind of "chosen one". To his credit, in 2018, he beat ZJK, Ma Long, LGY, all while being age 14. He looked like the best prospect we have ever seen (If he was taking down GOAT's at age 14, how good could he be at age 20?). I often compare him to Lebron James or Zion Williamson, being the most impressive young prospect the sport has ever seen.

2) He is still a VERY Good player (note: not trash, not doomed), a legit top 10 player. He has good days and bad days. On good days, he occasionally can still beat the top CNT players. On bad days, he can still lose to random players from Iran or players outside the top 20. Because of his inconsistent play, he even fell out of the top 10 in 2023. If he had a better winning %, he would still be in the top 3 or top 5, just the mathematical definition of the ranking system.

Additionally, we are not talking about boxing. In boxing, you just have to win 1 match, or potentially 1 round, to be world champion. This is table tennis. By definition, to be champion, you must win 5 matches in a row over every opponent presented to you. Beating world #1 and losing to world #30 does not give you any special title of "almost champion". I understand he has some very good wins, but he still has to win 5 in a row to be champion, which is the goal in this sport.

3) Compared to the 14 year old version of himself, the current version has not meaningfully improved. I judge this by his recent results against both CNT players and also his inconsistent play against international players, and lack of international tournament wins. In my opinion, he has not lived up to his hype, his talent, his potential, or his trajectory. This is my opinion. It may be shared by many, and disagreed by many. I still hold it. In this manner, I view him in the same way I view Zion Williamson: A very good player, but not living up to his potential.

4) I believe his trajectory in the past 5 years has been largely flat or even slightly downwards. He has not improved much, while other players (like Lebrun) have caught up to him. This is not the same as being doomed. In 2024 or 2025, he may suddenly improve his performance, and he can still win the big titles or be world #1. My statements of 1-3 pertain only up to the time of this statement.

5) Some members of this forum have defended his performance as being "good enough". They are free to this opinion, and there is no damaged caused by such a fan position. However, I just highlight the discrepancy of Harimoto's own statements of wanting to win the big titles such as Olympics and Worlds. Harimoto's goal is obviously more than being "best Japanese", so to that extent, he is underperforming his own goals. Obviously he has changed coaches several times in the past years, so everybody on his team seems to think that "good enough" is not enough. They would appear to be looking for a new breakthrough or trajectory. Again, as a fan, you are free to appreciate the quality of his performances as they are currently. As a fan, you are also free to wish for more or criticize him, because this is the internet, and that's what happens on the internet.


Bonus statement: This is just my personal opinion from a 1900 player, but I observe that his style tends to stand in the middle of the table and rally from both wings. His points often demand him to be consistent and sharp and in rhythm. I notice that the top players in the sport tend to play more efficiently and win more short points with a powerful FH kill or 3rd ball kill or by controlling the short ball.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I think the Japanese fans have it right.

A lot of Japanese fans also refuse to accept Harimoto as being "real Japanese".

Or they say "Of course he is good at TT, he is Chinese". So you have it both ways.

 

[NextLevel]

A lot of Japanese fans also refuse to accept Harimoto as being "real Japanese".

Or they say "Of course he is good at TT, he is Chinese". So you have it both ways.

One is allowed to agree with someone on one topic but disagree with him on another. Isnt that just normal mature human behavior? I would be dead by now if I had to agree with everything someone else believed to agree with one thing they believed.

 

[NextLevel]

I stopped answering because I don't want to keep repeating myself to deaf ears, not because my remarks are stupid. You are all free to disagree and have a different opinion, but PLEASE do not mis-represent my statements. You have made a number of false statements.

For the sake of clarity I will only make my statement one last time here:

1) Harimoto was the most hyped young player in recent memory, called by the media as the "100 year talent" and a kind of "chosen one". To his credit, in 2018, he beat ZJK, Ma Long, LGY, all while being age 14. He looked like the best prospect we have ever seen (If he was taking down GOAT's at age 14, how good could he be at age 20?). I often compare him to Lebron James or Zion Williamson, being the most impressive young prospect the sport has ever seen.

2) He is still a VERY Good player (note: not trash, not doomed), a legit top 10 player. He has good days and bad days. On good days, he occasionally can still beat the top CNT players. On bad days, he can still lose to random players from Iran or players outside the top 20. Because of his inconsistent play, he even fell out of the top 10 in 2023. If he had a better winning %, he would still be in the top 3 or top 5, just the mathematical definition of the ranking system.

Additionally, we are not talking about boxing. In boxing, you just have to win 1 match, or potentially 1 round, to be world champion. This is table tennis. By definition, to be champion, you must win 5 matches in a row over every opponent presented to you. Beating world #1 and losing to world #30 does not give you any special title of "almost champion". I understand he has some very good wins, but he still has to win 5 in a row to be champion, which is the goal in this sport.

3) Compared to the 14 year old version of himself, the current version has not meaningfully improved. I judge this by his recent results against both CNT players and also his inconsistent play against international players, and lack of international tournament wins. In my opinion, he has not lived up to his hype, his talent, his potential, or his trajectory. This is my opinion. It may be shared by many, and disagreed by many. I still hold it. In this manner, I view him in the same way I view Zion Williamson: A very good player, but not living up to his potential.

4) I believe his trajectory in the past 5 years has been largely flat or even slightly downwards. He has not improved much, while other players (like Lebrun) have caught up to him. This is not the same as being doomed. In 2024 or 2025, he may suddenly improve his performance, and he can still win the big titles or be world #1. My statements of 1-3 pertain only up to the time of this statement.

5) Some members of this forum have defended his performance as being "good enough". They are free to this opinion, and there is no damaged caused by such a fan position. However, I just highlight the discrepancy of Harimoto's own statements of wanting to win the big titles such as Olympics and Worlds. Harimoto's goal is obviously more than being "best Japanese", so to that extent, he is underperforming his own goals. Obviously he has changed coaches several times in the past years, so everybody on his team seems to think that "good enough" is not enough. They would appear to be looking for a new breakthrough or trajectory. Again, as a fan, you are free to appreciate the quality of his performances as they are currently. As a fan, you are also free to wish for more or criticize him, because this is the internet, and that's what happens on the internet.


Bonus statement: This is just my personal opinion from a 1900 player, but I observe that his style tends to stand in the middle of the table and rally from both wings. His points often demand him to be consistent and sharp and in rhythm. I notice that the top players in the sport tend to play more efficiently and win more short points with a powerful FH kill or 3rd ball kill or by controlling the short ball.

Some of us have experience in business and we know when someone is doing predictions based on a linear or hockey stick process which is exactly how someone who is experienced with the limitations of linear thinking and hockey stick predictions should not do it. That's all I will say for now, all you are doing is faulting Harimoto for not living up to your hockey stick prediction when you can find even pros like Dima and Boll being quite skeptical of Harimoto's long term prospects because of his technical limitations while lauding his fighting spirit. It all depends on whether you want to cherry pick and focus on just the highs or you want to take a complete view of what he achieved and how he achieved it. Remember that Harimoto other than once didn't won the Japanese national championships before this year. If you had factored that into your model, what would it have said?

The problem is not his lack of his results, the problem is that people like you focused on one set of results and and somehow believed that the other set were a result of his lack of improvement. While the truth is that all the results pointed to the same issues and that even with those issues, he is still one of the best players of ALL with his current trajectory. At his age, most people haven't won anything!

 

[TensorBackhand]

One is allowed to agree with someone on one topic but disagree with him on another. Isnt that just normal mature human behavior? I would be dead by now if I had to agree with everything someone else believed to agree with one thing they believed.

I never said they arent allowed to disagree. Thats their opinion of him

 

[TensorBackhand]

Some of us have experience in business and we know when someone is doing predictions based on a linear or hockey stick process which is exactly how someone who is experienced with the limitations of linear thinking and hockey stick predictions should not do it. That's all I will say for now, all you are doing is faulting Harimoto for not living up to your hockey stick prediction when you can find even pros like Dima and Boll being quite skeptical of Harimoto's long term prospects because of his technical limitations while lauding his fighting spirit. It all depends on whether you want to cherry pick and focus on just the highs or you want to take a complete view of what he achieved and how he achieved it. Remember that Harimoto other than once didn't won the Japanese national championships before this year. If you had factored that into your model, what would it have said?

The problem is not his lack of his results, the problem is that people like you focused on one set of results and and somehow believed that the other set were a result of his lack of improvement. While the truth is that all the results pointed to the same issues and that even with those issues, he is still one of the best players of ALL with his current trajectory. At his age, most people haven't won anything!

Youre free to view his results your way

 

[NextLevel]

Youre free to view his results your way

As are you. Even with his initial results, the structural and technical weaknesses in Harimoto's game were obvious and they were not going to be easy to address, and with people like you who focus on results, there is no way they would have been addressed. You don't realize how much a part of the problem you are. It is a sad world where someone is complaining about the results a player has at 20 years old not because they aren't great results, but because they don't show "growth" from his results at 14 years old, especially when table tennis improvement often requires long periods of giving up what currently works in order to build skills that may not yield returns for years. Part of the reason Harimoto couldn't grow is because of the precise mindset you are bringing to the issue. And this is why very often, the Chinese don't like putting their cadent talent out there until it has been forged from internal training and competition to a fairly mature level at an older age.

 

[TensorBackhand]

As are you. Even with his initial results, the structural and technical weaknesses in Harimoto's game were obvious and they were not going to be easy to address, and with people like you who focus on results, there is no way they would have been addressed. You don't realize how much a part of the problem you are. It is a sad world where someone is complaining about the results a player has at 20 years old not because they aren't great results, but because they don't show "growth" from his results at 14 years old, especially when table tennis improvement often requires long periods of giving up what currently works in order to build skills that may not yield returns for years. Part of the reason Harimoto couldn't grow is because of the precise mindset you are bringing to the issue. And this is why very often, the Chinese don't like putting their cadent talent out there until it has been forged from internal training and competition to a fairly mature level at an older age.

If im free to view it my way, dont call me a problem.

 

[NextLevel]

If im free to view it my way, dont call me a problem.

The freedom to believe obnoxious things does not make them any less obnoxious. And the attitude of requiring growth measured by short term results even when the right path can hurt the short term results of the player is precisely the tradeoff you refuse to discuss and is why fans like you who place unreasonable demands on players based on results without discussing the nuances of player development are part of the problem.

 

[TensorBackhand]

The freedom to believe obnoxious things does not make them any less obnoxious. And the attitude of requiring growth measured by short term results even when the right path can hurt the short term results of the player is precisely the tradeoff you refuse to discuss and is why fans like you who place unreasonable demands on players based on results without discussing the nuances of player development are part of the problem.

Ok. Youre one of those guys who complain about paying taxes and having to grow old too, right?

Youre gonna have to live with fans who disagree with your view.

My view is not gonna change unless the facts change.

 

[NextLevel]

Ok. Youre one of those guys who complain about paying taxes and having to grow old too, right?

Youre gonna have to live with fans who disagree with your view.

My view is not gonna change unless the facts change.

Of course your view not changing doesn't make it any less worthy of derision. It is definitely your right to maintain your opinion no matter how wrong I think it js but that has nothing to do with my right to tell you that your opinion is based on naive views of how career trajectories work. That said, placing the limitations of a 20 year old prodigy on the same level of growing old and paying taxes shows your mode of thinking.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Of course your view not changing doesn't make it any less worthy of derision. It is definitely your right to maintain your opinion no matter how wrong I think it js but that has nothing to do with my right to tell you that your opinion is based on naive views of how career trajectories work. That said, placing the limitations of a 20 year old prodigy on the same level of growing old and paying taxes shows your mode of thinking.

Good! We are in agreement.

I am free to have my opinion on Harimoto's performance. You are free to have your opinion of his performance. And you are free to have derision of my opinion. I have complete indifference towards your opinion.

The only thing is, I ask that you DO NOT mis-represent my opinion or what I actually said. That's why I stated my opinion clearly. I never said he is trash, I never said he is a bad player, I never said he has no hope in the future, etc.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

1) Harimoto was the most hyped young player in recent memory, called by the media as the "100 year talent" and a kind of "chosen one".

media called, so when did he say he is going to win olympic gold - please quote HT saying that, or media quote??

To his credit, in 2018, he beat ZJK, Ma Long, LGY, all while being age 14. He looked like the best prospect we have ever seen (If he was taking down GOAT's at age 14, how good could he be at age 20?). I often compare him to Lebron James or Zion Williamson, being the most impressive young prospect the sport has ever seen.

I guess you have never said these top players loosing to new comers and then CNT backend team assisting coaching team to prep the stars to never loose against such player?
Harimoto is not the first and not the last.
As forum people says "the player gets figured out".

2) On good days, he occasionally can still beat the top CNT players. On bad days, he can still lose to random players from Iran or players outside the top 20. Because of his inconsistent play,

who isn't?

he even fell out of the top 10 in 2023. If he had a better winning %, he would still be in the top 3 or top 5, just the mathematical definition of the ranking system.

I guess you are blinded by what happened to him in 2023
You have ignore people telling you why 2023 was bad for him, and you only choose your hockey stick view point on what you see as your facts

Additionally, we are not talking about boxing. In boxing, you just have to win 1 match, or potentially 1 round, to be world champion. This is table tennis. By definition, to be champion, you must win 5 matches in a row over every opponent presented to you. Beating world #1 and losing to world #30 does not give you any special title of "almost champion". I understand he has some very good wins, but he still has to win 5 in a row to be champion, which is the goal in this sport.

who is calling HT a champion? you are calling him doomed at age 18 already

3) Compared to the 14 year old version of himself, the current version has not meaningfully improved.

Really?? I guess you also haven't improved from the 14 year old you.
HT has grown a lot taller, his whole technical and approach had to change
I guess you don't understand what this means, since you need to have a multiple view point on one matter for you to see the whole picture. This tells me you are too narrow minded.

I judge this by his recent results against both CNT players and also his inconsistent play against international players, and lack of international tournament wins. In my opinion, he has not lived up to his hype, his talent, his potential, or his trajectory.

Some of the best wins in the resent 18 month period - no one else on planet earth done it.
Every other player is a failure too right?

This is my opinion. It may be shared by many, and disagreed by many.

So far, I think you are the 1 dooming in on the whole of TTD

4) I believe his trajectory in the past 5 years has been largely flat or even slightly downwards. He has not improved much, while other players (like Lebrun) have caught up to him. This is not the same as being doomed. In 2024 or 2025, he may suddenly improve his performance, and he can still win the big titles or be world #1. My statements of 1-3 pertain only up to the time of this statement.

yet you lack to acknowledge some of his best during the past 2 years and only remember the worse.
typical hate mentality (where fans will only remember the best and forget the worse). I don't like him, but I'm neutral. he played some of the best table tennis against the WR1 and WR2 the world had saw the past 2 years. Do you have the ability to experience quality table tennis, or are you narrow minded by who is playing?

Not improved much?
I'm glad you are not a coach or in a space to help others improve.

5) Some members of this forum have defended his performance as being "good enough". They are free to this opinion, and there is no damaged caused by such a fan position. However, I just highlight the discrepancy of Harimoto's own statements of wanting to win the big titles such as Olympics and Worlds.

Zeio challenged you, are you ignoring his challenge by quoting the source???
As I said, I'm not a HT fan, I don't like many parts of his story and his game, but he is one of those good enough as evidence by himself showing the world, while TB filter has filtered out.
so, provide evidence to your quote - especially since you lived in Japan lol

Harimoto's goal is obviously more than being "best Japanese", so to that extent, he is underperforming his own goals. Obviously he has changed coaches several times in the past years, so everybody on his team seems to think that "good enough" is not enough.

So you know what everybody on his teams seems to think?????????
wow

They would appear to be looking for a new breakthrough or trajectory. Again, as a fan, you are free to appreciate the quality of his performances as they are currently. As a fan, you are also free to wish for more or criticize him, because this is the internet, and that's what happens on the internet.

did you just call me a fan of HT?
you really fail to read to understand. Im sure many people on TTD knows I am not a fan
Or are you calling yourself a fan?
well, you have shown that you are 1 sided or narrow minded, so yes, that is your right to view it like that and criticize him. But how come it is so difficult for you to talk the good about Chengdu2022??? hehehe

Bonus statement: This is just my personal opinion from a 1900 player, but I observe that his style tends to stand in the middle of the table and rally from both wings. His points often demand him to be consistent and sharp and in rhythm. I notice that the top players in the sport tend to play more efficiently and win more short points with a powerful FH kill or 3rd ball kill or by controlling the short ball.

you are 1900?
damn, going to take that as a bonus indeed.

So, you few top players in the world by finishing a lot of points with a 3rd ball kill???
so anyone who doesn't have powerful FH kill is not a top player???
You need to read what you said and in the same time, how many people you are dooming or writing off all together.

HT is the best of the rest and the one that has successfully challenge the CNT in resent years.
Who else has done better than him??

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Of course your view not changing doesn't make it any less worthy of derision. It is definitely your right to maintain your opinion no matter how wrong I think it js but that has nothing to do with my right to tell you that your opinion is based on naive views of how career trajectories work. That said, placing the limitations of a 20 year old prodigy on the same level of growing old and paying taxes shows your mode of thinking.

I would say, if HT didn't have that best of his career performance in 2022, I won't be wasting my time trying to tell this 1900 player of how good of a table tennis HT can play.

I guess he has not even seen those 2 matches.

his mode of thinking is indeed the issue here.
Just like he wants to buy from dodgy websites to save a few penny.
maybe also one of those that will drive 10 miles to save on a penny too. It is difficult to make comparison between one and the other. So you set on the one, and can't see any other.

 

[NextLevel]

I would say, if HT didn't have that best of his career performance in 2022, I won't be wasting my time trying to tell this 1900 player of how good of a table tennis HT can play.

I guess he has not even seen those 2 matches.

his mode of thinking is indeed the issue here.
Just like he wants to buy from dodgy websites to save a few penny.
maybe also one of those that will drive 10 miles to save on a penny too. It is difficult to make comparison between one and the other. So you set on the one, and can't see any other.

The way you can tell he is full of BS is that he supposedly likes Miwa, who has not beaten anyone or done anything compared to what her brother did at the same age, just because she seems to be on a good path and doesn't have the supposedly same level of hype probably because she hasn't done anything quite like what Tomokazu did at the same age. It is just really stupid- you get dinged for doing well but going through natural struggles but don't get dinged if you don't do as well but still have a bright future Rather than our bad predictions making us be wary of hockey stick predictions, we just find a reason to beat up on those who don't satisfy them!