Just curious how many Penholders are on TTD?

[Ranger-man]

Welcome to TTD and this thread Ranger-man! Cool to have another traditional PH. I couldn't get the BH smash and always had problems on strong serves to my BH, so I finally am trying out RPB.

~osph

Thanks for the welcome OSPH. It also marks my return to the game after a gap of almost 10 years. This is my second return. I started playing about 30 years ago (yes I am old) and I hope to make it stick this time. Real life gets in the way you know.

I tried RPB but I could just not get my head around it. I would get all tied up between my natural instinct to do traditional pen backhand or do RPB and the result would be a botched return. I actually love doing traditional backhand loops or smashes so I think the will to learn RPB was lacking and I admit I did not give it a serious go.

The other thing is I love the weight of a blade with just one rubber on it so two rubbers felt like it was made of lead (I don't have very strong wrists.) The most I have done is stick a sheet of OX short pips such as Gambler Peacekeeper on some of my Cpen blades but that is about it. I got this idea from Cole of colestt who said it might be a good backup to have in case I got stuck with some spinny serves that I could not handle.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Thanks for the welcome OSPH. It also marks my return to the game after a gap of almost 10 years. This is my second return. I started playing about 30 years ago (yes I am old) and I hope to make it stick this time. Real life gets in the way you know.

I'm 53 now, played as a kid for 5-10 years, don't recall exact amount, took a 32 yrs break, started up again at 50.

I tried RPB but I could just not get my head around it. I would get all tied up between my natural instinct to do traditional pen backhand or do RPB and the result would be a botched return.

Happens to me too as we both started off as TPB. Will take time to override my TPB instinct. I watched some of Wang Hao's matches to help me get into a RPB mindset. But ultimately what helped me was playing SH and working on the BH. I self-learned for about 6 months and then started RPB seriously. Fortunate to have a friend that is a coach help me out as well as one time with forum member songdavid98. I have the basic idea, now to work on consistency and timing.

I actually love doing traditional backhand loops or smashes so I think the will to learn RPB was lacking and I admit I did not give it a serious go.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I never got the TPB smash only the punch/push-block, and never had a TPB loop, hence switching to RPB.

The other thing is I love the weight of a blade with just one rubber on it so two rubbers felt like it was made of lead (I don't have very strong wrists.) The most I have done is stick a sheet of OX short pips such as Gambler Peacekeeper on some of my Cpen blades but that is about it. I got this idea from Cole of colestt who said it might be a good backup to have in case I got stuck with some spinny serves that I could not handle.

I used to do this but felt i was cheating my opponent as well as cheating myself. Cheating myself in that I got lazy and used it instead of relying on good footwork for a FH or learning to return the incoming ball properly.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Is the pain in your fingers, your palm, or your wrist? I used to feel burning in my palm when I used to do multiball; maybe it's because my hands are weak.

I do let go of my racket a lot to relieve my hand. And I do stretch my hand against the table after I've been playing for a few hours.

The grip should be comfortable, in a way that you can tighten your grip and play for long periods of time. You can try experimenting by changing how left or right, up or down you place the tip of your middle finger.

It's in my fingers. As I ball up my hand into a fist, i feel it in the fingers and knuckles. Nothing in palm or wrist for now.

I tried your grip of just the middle finger and putting pressure onto the blade. I felt discomfort. I tried moving it to left and right, also slightly curled. Felt the discomfort, minor achiness.

For now, the most comfortable is extending the 3 fingers and having them all touch the rubber. However, I am not used to FH and serves with that grip. RPB felt great and painfree.

Yeah, i have started loosening the grip when there is a break due to retrieving balls or chatting. Also placing hand/fingers onto the table for a stretch.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

~2 hrs RPB punch training last night. My friend gave me some tips and feels as I'm learning RPB for the first time, i should start with the basics instead of go straight to RPB spinning. My challenge is that I rush my shots and I don't have the timing down and he has pointed that out to me many a time.

I think due to my self-learning of the SH BH i more or less have the RPB BH stroke down ... just sometimes I'm off in my timing. In the video I posted before of practicing with songdavid98 and 42andbackpains, at one point you can hear 42&bp say listen to the rhythm of the ball bouncing ... basically slow down. Also posted a short clip of my RPB BH stroke and i made some, i missed some.

So the RPB punch practice was good, I still need to work on my timing as well as RPB punch.

I had to change my grip from traditional curled fiingers grip to extended fingers grip in order to be more consistent with my RPB. Still experimenting with slight variations of extended fingers grip. Hitting with a teenager last night who probably can beat me easily the balls kept hitting my fingers ... OUCHY! I tried curling my fingers a little and my RPB suffered a little. So i have to work on seeing the incoming ball and adjusting the position of my hand/racket.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hattip to songdavid98 for posting this video in a different thread - reposting the video here:

Ma Long practicing with Xu Xin 0:00 - ~2:55 / ~4:35 - 6:42 - nice RPB blocks and FH loops

https://youtu.be/UFEJ01dboBk

 

[suds79]

Great to hear OSP.

We're on a similar journey right at the same time.

So for the last week or two there's an older gentlemen at our club who lives right by my work. A couple or few times a week I go over there for a quick hit session at his place.

This guy plays a semiller grip and while his range isn't all that good, he's excellent at being a return board if you put the ball in his wheelhouse. It's just coming back no question about it. So when i hit with him, I just keep hitting the ball there and RPB blocking the ball back and playing a game of lets see who makes an error first.

It has been great practice. I've had a RPB drive or loop for some time but I always directional blocked with TPB. Now i'm starting to gain confidence in my RPB block.

It's interesting to me just how different the RPB block is from the TPB. Where as your arm moves in this locomotive arm forward motion over & over. My RPB block is forward and significantly up. No wrist in the block. I assume it's because of the naturally closed face of RPB. But it's very much more up. So I do the block. And once i have a ball i want to put some power and spin into, then i engage the wrist and a little more forearm turn and the ball takes off.

I'm still not where I need to be. Honestly I think it'll take me a good year to feel like my RPB is where I want it to be. Driving, Looping, Fishing, chopping, chop-block, all the touch shots or service receive.

I think what I like most about it is that I'm starting to gain confidence in the RPB block being an option vs one's power loop. While I can directional block with TPB fine, once I face someone with a very powerful loop, It's almost a guarantee that my TPB will go long off the table. That's not the case with my RPB block and I saw several examples of it last night.

Baby steps.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Great to hear OSP.

We're on a similar journey right at the same time.

So for the last week or two there's an older gentlemen at our club who lives right by my work. A couple or few times a week I go over there for a quick hit session at his place.

This guy plays a semiller grip and while his range isn't all that good, he's excellent at being a return board if you put the ball in his wheelhouse. It's just coming back no question about it. So when i hit with him, I just keep hitting the ball there and RPB blocking the ball back and playing a game of lets see who makes an error first.

It has been great practice. I've had a RPB drive or loop for some time but I always directional blocked with TPB. Now i'm starting to gain confidence in my RPB block.

It's interesting to me just how different the RPB block is from the TPB. Where as your arm moves in this locomotive arm forward motion over & over. My RPB block is forward and significantly up. No wrist in the block. I assume it's because of the naturally closed face of RPB. But it's very much more up. So I do the block. And once i have a ball i want to put some power and spin into, then i engage the wrist and a little more forearm turn and the ball takes off.

I'm still not where I need to be. Honestly I think it'll take me a good year to feel like my RPB is where I want it to be. Driving, Looping, Fishing, chopping, chop-block, all the touch shots or service receive.

I think what I like most about it is that I'm starting to gain confidence in the RPB block being an option vs one's power loop. While I can directional block with TPB fine, once I face someone with a very powerful loop, It's almost a guarantee that my TPB will go long off the table. That's not the case with my RPB block and I saw several examples of it last night.

A good and steady blocker is a great training partner to hit with! Awesome to hear suds!

Interesting on your stroke. My RPB punch is similar to my TPB punch ... not much up, straight out from center ... oh wait, I reread, you wrote "RPB block" and not punch.

Baby steps

Am reminded of a scene from the oldschool Karate Kid LOL:

Daniel: [after seeing Miyagi practice the crane technique] Could you teach me?
Miyagi: First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel-san, not mine.

Keep at it suds!

 

[suds79]

Played pretty solid last night.

However, in one singles match that I lost, I keep thinking about my return of service. Now granted I was playing someone who always beats me so I was probably pressing a little more than I should trying to end points early. I should just stay relaxed and play steady next time.

Anyways, on return of service, I probably was a little more agressive (RPB over the table flip) than I normally am.

I've talked about in the past how I think this dynamic is different for a lefty facing a righty than a righty facing a righty. In a righty vs righty, the over the table BH flip the ball is coming towards you. As lefty, it's probably curving away from you and you're kinda chasing the ball.

That being said, I watched this recent match of Xu Xin and I was surprised by just how many serves he returns passively. A lot of pushes & chop blocks. Then he gets off the table and once they open up on the 3rd ball, he counter loops back and that's the game.

Now that's not to say he never attacks. That'd be predictable. But I'm going to take this lesson as to think more of next time "just get the ball back on the table in a good spot and get into the point" vs trying to almost win it right off the return. I really don't make my opponent work hardly at all if all he has to do is get a serve in to win a point.

Check this match

I might have missed one here or there but here are my rough service return notes.

Game 1:
Passive:
FH Chopblock - in
TPB push - in
FH Chopblock - in
RPB push - in
FH Chopblock - in


Agressive:
FH FLip - in
RPB Drive - in
RPB Flip - in


Game 2:
Passive:
FH Push - in
FH chopblock - in
FH chop - in
FH chop - out
Fh push - in


Agressive:
RPB flip - out
FH Loop - in
RPB flip - in
FH loop - in
FH loop - in


Game 3:
Passive:
FH chop - in
FH push - in
FH chopblock - in
FH chopblock - in
TPB push - in
FH push - in
FH push - in


Agressive:
RPB flip - in
RPB flip - in
RPB flip - in

What was surprising to me were the number of over the table FH chops he does. Never really noticed it much until now.

 

[ttmonster]

Wang Hao used to open with the BH flip way more than Xu Xin ...

Played pretty solid last night.

However, in one singles match that I lost, I keep thinking about my return of service. Now granted I was playing someone who always beats me so I was probably pressing a little more than I should trying to end points early. I should just stay relaxed and play steady next time.

Anyways, on return of service, I probably was a little more agressive (RPB over the table flip) than I normally am.

I've talked about in the past how I think this dynamic is different for a lefty facing a righty than a righty facing a righty. In a righty vs righty, the over the table BH flip the ball is coming towards you. As lefty, it's probably curving away from you and you're kinda chasing the ball.

That being said, I watched this recent match of Xu Xin and I was surprised by just how many serves he returns passively. A lot of pushes & chop blocks. Then he gets off the table and once they open up on the 3rd ball, he counter loops back and that's the game.

Now that's not to say he never attacks. That'd be predictable. But I'm going to take this lesson as to think more of next time "just get the ball back on the table in a good spot and get into the point" vs trying to almost win it right off the return. I really don't make my opponent work hardly at all if all he has to do is get a serve in to win a point.

Check this match

I might have missed one here or there but here are my rough service return notes.

Game 1:
Passive:
FH Chopblock - in
TPB push - in
FH Chopblock - in
RPB push - in
FH Chopblock - in


Agressive:
FH FLip - in
RPB Drive - in
RPB Flip - in


Game 2:
Passive:
FH Push - in
FH chopblock - in
FH chop - in
FH chop - out
Fh push - in


Agressive:
RPB flip - out
FH Loop - in
RPB flip - in
FH loop - in
FH loop - in


Game 3:
Passive:
FH chop - in
FH push - in
FH chopblock - in
FH chopblock - in
TPB push - in
FH push - in
FH push - in


Agressive:
RPB flip - in
RPB flip - in
RPB flip - in

What was surprising to me were the number of over the table FH chops he does. Never really noticed it much until now.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

suds,

Thanks for the video, will watch after work.

You and Der_Echte are 2 people I know who keep track of stats like this! Or somewhat like this for Der (we played a match ages ago before I went EJ'ing ... he told me after the match with words to the effect of, you did well, you won 80% of your your serves) PROPS AND RESPECT! i generally track loosely and think his push made it more than it didn't etc

Perhaps as I'm older and slower and/or was never good at pivot and 2nd ball FH loop, i generally 2nd ball push if short downspin, angling the return and looking for 4th or perhaps 6th ball attack. When I misread a nspin/topspin/sidespin serve as downspin and I push is where i mess up.

I have not had time generally to really watch videos especially world class players ... as they are professionals, rally way longer than me, more athletic than me and make fewer mistakes than me. But it is heartening to see someone like Xu Xin do similar things I do on 2nd ball. That is push on 2nd ball and wait for appropriate time to attack. I can't remember one point I watched where any of these 2 played each other: Ma Long, FZD, ZJK or XX -- they pushed and pushed, generally to short middle of the table and on 7th or 8th ball when one of them was able to open up with an attack.

I think the context of an aggressive 2nd ball return may have to be factored in also. Some matches let's say XX or Wang Hao is ahead - they may choose to aggressive RPB flip 2nd ball back as they can afford to lose a point if they mess up the shot ... but if they make it, they either win the point outright or leads to good position for their 4th ball attacks. Does this make sense?

edit: as i typed this i see ttmonster replied with WH RPB flip opening up more than XX.

 

[ttmonster]

Yes, for example look at this match vs Ma Long in 2013 ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXylJVNIoDQ

If I were a Penholder and wanted to learn RPB thats the guy I would try to emulate , Xu Xin's RPB does not cut it for me

suds,

Thanks for the video, will watch after work.

You and Der_Echte are 2 people I know who keep track of stats like this! Or somewhat like this for Der (we played a match ages ago before I went EJ'ing ... he told me after the match with words to the effect of, you did well, you won 80% of your your serves) PROPS AND RESPECT! i generally track loosely and think his push made it more than it didn't etc

Perhaps as I'm older and slower and/or was never good at pivot and 2nd ball FH loop, i generally 2nd ball push if short downspin, angling the return and looking for 4th or perhaps 6th ball attack. When I misread a nspin/topspin/sidespin serve as downspin and I push is where i mess up.

I have not had time generally to really watch videos especially world class players ... as they are professionals, rally way longer than me, more athletic than me and make fewer mistakes than me. But it is heartening to see someone like Xu Xin do similar things I do on 2nd ball. That is push on 2nd ball and wait for appropriate time to attack. I can't remember one point I watched where any of these 2 played each other: Ma Long, FZD, ZJK or XX -- they pushed and pushed, generally to short middle of the table and on 7th or 8th ball when one of them was able to open up with an attack.

I think the context of an aggressive 2nd ball return may have to be factored in also. Some matches let's say XX or Wang Hao is ahead - they may choose to aggressive RPB flip 2nd ball back as they can afford to lose a point if they mess up the shot ... but if they make it, they either win the point outright or leads to good position for their 4th ball attacks. Does this make sense?

edit: as i typed this i see ttmonster replied with WH RPB flip opening up more than XX.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

That being said, I watched this recent match of Xu Xin and I was surprised by just how many serves he returns passively. A lot of pushes & chop blocks.

Posting this without watching your video yet, but my reply is based on XX's practice with Ma Long.

https://youtu.be/UFEJ01dboBk

Not sure if your definition of passive push takes into account his placement of the push ... in the video I posted, you can see Ma Long serves FH pendulum to XX's middle with which XX pushes/places to ML's short FH.

I dont have the time now to find exact times for you.

But technically it may be a passive push, but I also think of placement of the push and although not passive but not aggressive, it's bordering on aggressive due to placement. Know what i mean?

 

[ttmonster]

Here's my two cents on this topic ... .
...the over the table Chiquita is such a dynamic shot that there are very few types of serves / placement of serves that are not returnable , for me the choice of which ball to flip and which one not too , depends on whether I have the footwork to come back from there back to my ready position. So chinese players like WH / ZJK can do what they want , I would still forehand flip / push those balls because I know I might not be able to come back in time for the 2nd ball ... having said that in doubles I use it more often because I have more time and normally I go for an aggressive opening so that we can win on that ball , the reason is I don't want my partner to deal with my side spin ...

 

[songdavid98]

Wang Hao used to open with the BH flip way more than Xu Xin ...

you completely missed his point. he stated that when a lefty plays a righty, there are more passive service returns. Xu Xin is a lefty, so it is not as great for him to try to backhand flip righty serves, whereas Wang Hao is a righty who will have an easier time to use his backhand flip on righty serves

As a lefty penholder myself, I do relate to this, as I try to short push a lot when I play against a righty that serves backspin on a regular basis.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Yes, for example look at this match vs Ma Long in 2013 ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXylJVNIoDQ

If I were a Penholder and wanted to learn RPB thats the guy I would try to emulate , Xu Xin's RPB does not cut it for me

Agreed to WH as to RPB emulation/inspiration!

Although for me, I'm not looking to be Wang Hao level - it's highly improbable I will get to his level. But at my level, if i can RPB successfully 25% of the time in gameplay, I'll work towards being successful with my RPB 50% during gameplay, then to 75% and not sure if it's probable for me to get to 100% success with my RPB, but at my level and given I'm probably going to be just a club player, if i reach 75% I would be halfway OK.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

you completely missed his point. he stated that when a lefty plays a righty, there are more passive service returns. Xu Xin is a lefty, so it is not as great for him to try to backhand flip righty serves, whereas Wang Hao is a righty who will have an easier time to use his backhand flip on righty serves

As a lefty penholder myself, I do relate to this, as I try to short push a lot when I play against a righty that serves backspin on a regular basis.

There are some rightys who short push righty's backspin serves too -- lazy slow me LOLOL

 

[mky]

There are some rightys who short push righty's backspin serves too -- lazy slow me LOLOL

I am in that club as well, only playing once a week is not good for me haha.

 

[suds79]

For sure Wang Hao RPB flipped way more serves than Xu Xin.

Shoot even watch newcomer Xue Fei and he also flips far more serves than Xu Xin. But he's also right handed.

I think there's something to it being left handed that makes it trickier. As stated before, on a righting pendulum serve, the ball is curving away from you. If you're right handed, the ball is coming to you.

I find I can RPB flip serves in doubles much greater. That's because there's this small area the ball must land and I can get in my stance. But in singles? Just harder IMO. Court can be pretty wide.

There's another pretty good left hander penholder I somewhat follow (honestly not a ton of lefty penholders out there to reference) named Pu Zheng (2600 ish I believe) who largely returns serves the same way as Xu. You don't see him RPB flipping a lot of serves.

 

[Ranger-man]

"I've talked about in the past how I think this dynamic is different for a lefty facing a righty than a righty facing a righty. In a righty vs righty, the over the table BH flip the ball is coming towards you. As lefty, it's probably curving away from you and you're kinda chasing the ball."



Suds79, That comment you made about the backhand flip curving away from the right-hander if you are a lefty making a RPB made me think about how I do it and what happens. I am a righty and I play TPB. Not sure if I do it right but it is pretty effective and I am very consistent with my backhand topspins and smashes. I also tend to attack serves with it, especially underspin serves. But when I do it tends to curve away from the right-hander, after the bounce. I am not sure why it does this, but I don't mind because it always surprises players. It goes in a straight trajectory and only deviates after the bounce, and quite noticeably so.

 

[ttmonster]

@songdavid98 : You are right that I missed that point . I thought he was talking only about over the table Chiquita for penholders.

@OSPH : I am not saying that you will be at Wang Hao's level , but if I were trying to learn RPB , I would emulate him for learning, his grip etc. than Xu Xin's grip. There has to be some technical reason why he has taken so much time to incorporate RPB in his game, it can't just be mental.

@suds79 : Since the sample set of Lefty Penholders playing against righty's are small , you can look at Righty Penholders playing vs lefty's , e.g Timo Ball vs Wang Hao ...

you completely missed his point. he stated that when a lefty plays a righty, there are more passive service returns. Xu Xin is a lefty, so it is not as great for him to try to backhand flip righty serves, whereas Wang Hao is a righty who will have an easier time to use his backhand flip on righty serves.

As a lefty penholder myself, I do relate to this, as I try to short push a lot when I play against a righty that serves backspin on a regular basis.

 

[suds79]

@suds79 : Since the sample set of Lefty Penholders playing against righty's are small , you can look at Righty Penholders playing vs lefty's , e.g Timo Ball vs Wang Hao ...

Right. It's a good point I'll have to reference since as stated there simply isn't a ton of left handed penholders. There's also this cool Chrome extension tool that lets you flip the video on youtube. Called Mirror Tube.

Guess in the future I'll be flipping a lot of Xue Fei vs lefties once Xu Xin is done.

2:09 in the video you posted:

This is a serve I miss all the time.
Wang Hao starting to cheat over to his right, serve is short and to his BH. WH steps back left and RPB flips it. The greatest RPB of all time makes it look easy.

I suppose it's something I should practice. A RPB flip where the step and lean is not moving towards my FH side a la FZD. But rather back to my BH side for those down the line serves.

I suppose I'll have to take it as a case by case basis. Right now vs some people who are easier servers at club, I have no problems RPB their serves. But for higher quality servers, it's simply more challenging.
But I'll work on it. I think that's part of the problem. I've never practiced the motion moving & leaning back towards my BH side.

It is interesting to note how much more WH played middle of the table on service return than XX. With XX's style, I could RPB flip those balls that come directly to me. But then you have to be quick on those wide FH serves in getting there. Given I don't have the same athleticism i did in my 20s, I'd probably be best to adjust to more of WH's stance and just work on it.

That being said and while it'll have to be something I work on, I think for now it'll just have to remain something I use as I have confidence in. If I feel one's serves are easy? Sure go for it. If I feel they are more challenging? Probably better to play it safe.

While we all want to grow and improve, I have to play smart when in matches also. I mean if someone serves to my RPB and there's a 50% chance I'm able to RPB flip it in (that might be generous right now vs good serves) then of that 50% I do get in, they'll get it back X % of time. I'm losing the vast majority of those points.

Conversely, If I play pushes or touch shots vs those tough serves while rarely mixing in an attack just to keep them honest, maybe I can safely push or return those serves 80% of the time. Sure they might have the opportunity to 3rd ball attack some of those but my opponents won't be hitting 100% either. IDK. I think for my intermediate level, playing a little more safe might be best for me and continuing to practice the harder stuff when not in matches.

I guess it's all part of that balance of playing to your game and what comes naturally well to you. And playing the game you'd like to play. :/ Sometimes (or often times) for me, they don't really line up.