Modern rubbers are killing the rotation in the topspin play

[Yurifi]

this week, during one of the practice sessions, as I was teaching how to impart good rotation on forehand topspin, I realised, why all the kids and youger players know how to hit the ball hard but lack rotation, and also, why everyone is saying - "with the plastic ball, there isn't so much rotation on the ball anymore ..." yes, because of modern tensor rubbers.

when I was a kid learning how to play good topspin, we had a choice - Butterfly Sriver and Tibhar Rapid. as we got better some more options opened, me, being top 5 kids in the country had the privilege to use Yasaka Mark V. you had to work hard with those rubbers. you had to do everything, that's how we learned how to create rotation. especially me, I had a great feeling for rotation, for placing the ball on the table with rotation than with power.

fast forward 20 years ...

I started playing table tennis after 20 years of hiatus. first thing my father, also my coach, told me, was - it's harder now, the plastic ball is tougher to create rotation. of course, after warming up, the first thing I wanted to do was - topspin. and everyone I played with was amazed by the level of rotation I was able to put into the ball. as I was playing I got the opportunity to be a sparing partner to younger players (U13, U15 and U17) and was shocked - yes, they all can create a lot of power, but rotation is lacking a bit ... so during preseason practices I kind of delved into topspin and how to teach them about how to put more rotation into the ball. and it is so hard with Tenergy 05 because it is so springy, there is basically no dwell time! ball just flies. some kids are now fitting Dignics09c and it is much less springy and I realised, it is the extreme tensor effect probably behind this saying - "with the plastic ball there is much less rotation ..."

so - I cannot put them back onto "Srivers and Rapids", some of them are not ready yet for the D09c (even though they want it, of course) - so which rubbers to use to teach them how to put proper rotation into their topspin strokes?

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Modern rubbers aren't killing it, they're responding to the ball that killed it. Spin isn't gone from the game, it just can't be the only thing you have in your shots if you want to play at a higher level.

 

[Tyce]

I remember. You used to have to choose between playing flat or playing with spin - and I absolutely loved it.
Serve with heavy spin, opening up, heavy, and when the time was right, flat hit the heck out of it to finish the point.

Nowadays, most attacks (in developed modern players) are power loops. Being able to block a 1st team player's loop was unimaginable back in the day, now it's standard.

I am one of those that just never got on well with tensors. Sure they're fun for flat stuff but it sucks to put heavy rotation on. Especially the faster ones (Tenergy).
What works for me is surprisingly simple: slow rubbers.
This can be tacky (my favourite option since there's zero tensor involved) but just as well the likes of Vega Europe, Rakza 7 soft. I wouldn't even use Rakza 7 regular for this, even though it's a great step up once you get the hang of it.
I'm so positively surprised by Mercury 2 on my BH that I'm keen on keeping it for competition. FH is Hurricane 3, slow as a donkey but so much power to learn to wield.

I also firmly believe that the transition between using tensors on an allwood or mild carbon blade, and sticking Hurricane on that same blade is way too big. It is much easier to use on a Viscaria type blade if your background is like that, simply because you will still have that initial bounce. The fact that it comes from the blade instead of the rubber actually makes it more reliable imo. Feels like a dependable backbone.

More backstory (lol). I have been dabbling with different rubbers and blades for quite a bit and with varying results.
On wood, the best ones for heavy spin have been Fastarc G1 and Rakza 7. I didn't like Hurricane until I was up to Clipper, which has that backbone because it's thick enough for it. (in comparison, Fextra is too weak for Hurricane but kinda worked with Mercury 2).
I have used 37d Hurricane 3 soft on a Korbel which did feel like a better combination than the 39d.
There's a guy in my club who plays very heavy, slow spin balls and does it quite well up to a level I will never be able to reach. He used Vega Europe, those balls were unblockable. Switched to Rakza 7, and it's even harder to block.

Bottom line, if the ball leaves the rubber too quickly, they need to slow down the rubber.

 

[piligrim]

Another nostalgic topic from 70+ old schoolers )))

 

[Yurifi]

Modern rubbers aren't killing it, they're responding to the ball that killed it. Spin isn't gone from the game, it just can't be the only thing you have in your shots if you want to play at a higher level.

will all due respect, it’s gone. I’ve seen plenty of matches where it was power vs. power. but the I saw that power being tamed by rotation and not so much power. twice. once in A. Lebrun vs. Park Gyuhyeon, where Park started playing with more rotation and less power and Lebrun was completely lost. same happened between Ovtcharov and Uda - Ovtcharov took away all power and Uda was completely lost.

many times I see that combining power and rotation is the key. everyone can play with power nowadays, bang-bang all out, but when you start mixing rotation and feel and reduce some power - they are in serious trouble.

 

[Yurifi]

Another nostalgic topic from 70+ old schoolers )))

I am 43. 😉

 

[piligrim]

I am 43. 😉

Sound like 70 ))))

 

[ajtatosmano2]

this week, during one of the practice sessions, as I was teaching how to impart good rotation on forehand topspin, I realised, why all the kids and youger players know how to hit the ball hard but lack rotation, and also, why everyone is saying - "with the plastic ball, there isn't so much rotation on the ball anymore ..." yes, because of modern tensor rubbers.

when I was a kid learning how to play good topspin, we had a choice - Butterfly Sriver and Tibhar Rapid. as we got better some more options opened, me, being top 5 kids in the country had the privilege to use Yasaka Mark V. you had to work hard with those rubbers. you had to do everything, that's how we learned how to create rotation. especially me, I had a great feeling for rotation, for placing the ball on the table with rotation than with power.

fast forward 20 years ...

I started playing table tennis after 20 years of hiatus. first thing my father, also my coach, told me, was - it's harder now, the plastic ball is tougher to create rotation. of course, after warming up, the first thing I wanted to do was - topspin. and everyone I played with was amazed by the level of rotation I was able to put into the ball. as I was playing I got the opportunity to be a sparing partner to younger players (U13, U15 and U17) and was shocked - yes, they all can create a lot of power, but rotation is lacking a bit ... so during preseason practices I kind of delved into topspin and how to teach them about how to put more rotation into the ball. and it is so hard with Tenergy 05 because it is so springy, there is basically no dwell time! ball just flies. some kids are now fitting Dignics09c and it is much less springy and I realised, it is the extreme tensor effect probably behind this saying - "with the plastic ball there is much less rotation ..."

so - I cannot put them back onto "Srivers and Rapids", some of them are not ready yet for the D09c (even though they want it, of course) - so which rubbers to use to teach them how to put proper rotation into their topspin strokes?

Tensors has nothing to do with this. They are spinnier than the old rubbers were, it's just the ball. If you want to teach the kids to play a more spin based game, sure go for it. Tenergy is indeed pretty springy and D09c is expensive. Joining Tyce, I would say Fastarc G1 is a very good choice for serious beginners or some cheaper chinese rubbers. There is a ton of rubber which are suitable, check out the forum.

 

[CroneOne]

I wouldn't say that it's purely rubbers. It seems to me that any slow heavy spin that rises too high over the net can easily be clobbered through now. I think the game has moved towards removal of time from the opponent more than spin. I only played with the old ball for 1-2 years before the new ball but ai remember the old ball fizzing with spin and arc.

 

[jonol]

I don't really see this as being due to rubbers. The amount of spin that modern rubbers can generate is significantly higher than older generations.

The thinking also seems to have shifted a lot, where a lot of players base their game around countering.

If anything, it seems more like a combination of banning speed glue and changes to the ball than the rubbers. The innovations that have led to faster rubbers might have been fast-tracked by those changes, but I imagine there still would have been innovation over time to produce more modern types of rubber regardless.

 

[J-fed]

What works for me is surprisingly simple: slow rubbers.
This can be tacky (my favourite option since there's zero tensor involved) but just as well the likes of Vega Europe, Rakza 7 soft. results.
On wood, the best ones for heavy spin have been Fastarc G1 and Rakza 7.
There's a guy in my club who plays very heavy, slow spin balls and does it quite well up to a level I will never be able to reach. He used Vega Europe, those balls were unblockable. Switched to Rakza 7, and it's even harder to block.
.

Great to hear. Just got me a sheet of the soft and it’s going on a 5 ply.
V much looking forward to it now.
I agree that the young players are getting into loop monster rubbers too early too. Then they choose the max sponge. Youth gonna push the limits.
They seem to miss really long a lot.
Many young players start with Mark V here. It’s better than starting with tensors imo. Still seems hilarious to me who grew up with that rubber being an intimidating step up in technique.
Meh. Maybe I’m just too conservative.
I’m also thinking of putting together one really fast modern bat just to see if I can handle the heat. Some of the high throw loop stuff you can do is fun for sure.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

will all due respect, it’s gone. I’ve seen plenty of matches where it was power vs. power. but the I saw that power being tamed by rotation and not so much power. twice. once in A. Lebrun vs. Park Gyuhyeon, where Park started playing with more rotation and less power and Lebrun was completely lost. same happened between Ovtcharov and Uda - Ovtcharov took away all power and Uda was completely lost.

many times I see that combining power and rotation is the key. everyone can play with power nowadays, bang-bang all out, but when you start mixing rotation and feel and reduce some power - they are in serious trouble.

They may be in trouble for a match or two but when they adapt and can do all the same things but more powerfully they will win - this is how things work and the natural progression in most sports. I'm sure there are still sandpaper enthusiasts going on about how they play the "pure" and "tactical" game or whatever lol.

That's why you see the kids being trained the way they are - they are being trained to raise their ceiling and do what wins most of the time, not just what might bail you out from time to time, and those two things can exist in parallel very much.

 

[NextLevel]

this week, during one of the practice sessions, as I was teaching how to impart good rotation on forehand topspin, I realised, why all the kids and youger players know how to hit the ball hard but lack rotation, and also, why everyone is saying - "with the plastic ball, there isn't so much rotation on the ball anymore ..." yes, because of modern tensor rubbers.

when I was a kid learning how to play good topspin, we had a choice - Butterfly Sriver and Tibhar Rapid. as we got better some more options opened, me, being top 5 kids in the country had the privilege to use Yasaka Mark V. you had to work hard with those rubbers. you had to do everything, that's how we learned how to create rotation. especially me, I had a great feeling for rotation, for placing the ball on the table with rotation than with power.

fast forward 20 years ...

I started playing table tennis after 20 years of hiatus. first thing my father, also my coach, told me, was - it's harder now, the plastic ball is tougher to create rotation. of course, after warming up, the first thing I wanted to do was - topspin. and everyone I played with was amazed by the level of rotation I was able to put into the ball. as I was playing I got the opportunity to be a sparing partner to younger players (U13, U15 and U17) and was shocked - yes, they all can create a lot of power, but rotation is lacking a bit ... so during preseason practices I kind of delved into topspin and how to teach them about how to put more rotation into the ball. and it is so hard with Tenergy 05 because it is so springy, there is basically no dwell time! ball just flies. some kids are now fitting Dignics09c and it is much less springy and I realised, it is the extreme tensor effect probably behind this saying - "with the plastic ball there is much less rotation ..."

so - I cannot put them back onto "Srivers and Rapids", some of them are not ready yet for the D09c (even though they want it, of course) - so which rubbers to use to teach them how to put proper rotation into their topspin strokes?

The older rubbers and Chinese rubbers are still on the market, use them and see whether they solve the problem as you describe it. Even Timo Boll complains about it a little, but unlike you he didn't blame the rubbers, he blamed the current ABS balls, which is far more in line with my experience. Once the balls stopped having cellulose, they just stopped reacting in the exact way we were used to in the spinny days.

 

[Der_Echte]

I am 60 and still spin first and ask questions later. Even the moderator of this forum will advocate to learn how to spin the ball in every possible situation for both safety and effectiveness.

Not everyone will spin first and spin heavy like I do and crave, nor like you, who are similar mindset with me.

Ironically, I spin the ball heavy on both wings with an real old gen tensor that was designed for more speed than spin.

Not every ball needs to be hit with spin, sometimes a LACK of spin is a good shot that wins, you need feel for the situation and opponent.

But I get it... it is a LOT more difficult to achieve a lot of spin with the ball and the kind of balls you get in rallies with modern trained players.

I am with you in spirit and on the table, I will spin first, even if it loses me some points and rallies. Everyone is getting better and adaptive, it is a nature of evolution.

This gen of plastic ball is by far the EASIEST to hit through spin... so many have adapted and evolved their tactics around staying at the table and hitting the crap outta the ball as early and hard and safe consistent as they can... and it is a profit.

TT has ALWAYS been about placement and consistency, with enough quality... now there is a different definition of quality and many have gotten abord that train... and train (pun intended) for that standard.

Even in the older days, so many kids were trained to pound that ball like they were going to the dog pound and learn touch and spin later... nowadays, it is simply moar severe, no big change in that regard really.

 

[Egon]

I want to add something about the blade. Without a blade with a large dwell time, it will be very difficult to achieve a high level of rotation. I will explain.
I have a friend who plays H3 without a boost on the forehand on the w968 blade. When he strengthens the tops, I and not only I have problems with blocking. There is a lot of rotation and in order to block the ball from him, the racket must be placed almost horizontally. And he also likes to inflate blisters on the forehand pads in a very short time and for him the quality of the rubber is determined by the time of play before the blister appears .
The other day we played with him and he took another faster blade with the Stiga Dynasty Carbon composition and the same H3. The speed became more, but the rotation became less. My problems with blocking disappeared..
His main blade w968 is not really fast and has a lot of lag due to the soft limba on the surface and ayous underneath. And the other blade has hard koto and carbon immediately underneath it, so the lag is much less.
I also noticed for myself that the further I go, the faster the blades I can play, respectively the speed increases and the rotation decreases.

 

[jonol]

I agree that the young players are getting into loop monster rubbers too early too. Then they choose the max sponge. Youth gonna push the limits.
They seem to miss really long a lot.
Many young players start with Mark V here.

I'd say missing long is the ideal type of problem to have for youth players who are being coached.

It means they're committing to shots properly, but probably not brushing the ball or closing the angle enough on the shot - both are easily corrected.

With coaching, they will adapt over time and get more consistent at landing their shots. More importantly, youth players need to enjoy the game to stay motivated, which will certainly make them much more motivated in the long term. Classic rubbers are boring, tensors are fun!

 

[v100ev]

For me the answer is simple - the ball.The proof - ask any defender (or remember playing a defender with the old ball and now). It just so much easier with the new ball. That's where I felt the difference first, and then later I discovered that with the new ball it's also easier to counter/control a slow heavy loop.
Because of the ball the styles changed also. Remember how Timo adapted - he had to change his game to not emphasize so much on hist first super spinny topspin, but to play with more placement cause the slow loop can be crushed/controlled much easier by the opponent.
Spin still works, obviously, but I would say that ball speed now takes the edge in TT.