Modern rubbers are killing the rotation in the topspin play

[jk1980]

I would not invalidate the point of the rubbers being "at fault" for the less spinny game. Remember that the equipment you play will influence what and how you learn to play. If it is significantly easier to win points by "powerlooping" with little spin, then that is what you are getting used to. There is this guy in one of the clubs i frequent who relearned the game with XiomVega X as rubber and even though that rubber is spinny enough, he does power loop 90% of the time. If that is enough for him to win points against the pushes he gets 99% of the time who should blame him for ending the point early with half power loop half smash? from the people he plays against i am the only one that actually applies backspin to the pushes so he does gift me 3 to 5 points per set simply by him not being able to loop my long push. If he started off with a less easy to generate power/speed with rubber he probably would have learned to spin first instead of resorting to power.

We do see similar patterns when i play against some of the youngsters from the youth and the women from the women team. in general the game is much less spin focussed there and they always watch their rubber in disbelieve if their loop technique that just works fine against no spin or very low backspin fails.

 

[J-fed]

I'd say missing long is the ideal type of problem to have for youth players who are being coached.

It means they're committing to shots properly, but probably not brushing the ball or closing the angle enough on the shot - both are easily corrected.

With coaching, they will adapt over time and get more consistent at landing their shots. More importantly, youth players need to enjoy the game to stay motivated, which will certainly make them much more motivated in the long term. Classic rubbers are boring, tensors are fun!

It’s a great POV too

 

[Tyce]

Interesting, ruminating on this.

I think it's a fair point to say that overriding spin has become a much more important skill than purely applying a lot of it.
Also, perhaps I'm just too stuck in the old mindset of using spin over power, and that could be a fair point as to why I'm not getting what I want out of most tensor rubbers.

There's just someting magical about producing a heavy-ass loop and seeing it dip down just on the white line, but chasing that might be as useless as chasing super hard third ball finishers all the time. After all, most progress is found in the basics: being in the right place, playing the ball with control and placing the ball accurately.

 

[Sriver1]

Bigger ball plus plastic almost killed the spin. This leds to play close to the table and powerloop every ball. We should go back to a smaller ball to bring back style variety.
It was fun when had to face different playing styles.

 

[vvk1]

Smaller ball plus plastic almost killed the spin. This leds to play close to the table and powerloop every ball. We should go back to a smaller ball to bring back style variety.
It was fun when had to face different playing styles.

"Bigger" ball plus plastic ...

 

[jonol]

This thread has me thinking it would be really interesting to see a Spinsight comparison between celluloid vs. plastic and different ball sizes.

Classic vs modern rubbers on the different types as well.

 

[darucla]

Not taking any side here, but I would like to add the table to the mix. I feel that of the tables I play on, the newest, made by Tibhar, are both the shiniest, and the fastest. I much prefer the older Butterfly tables, which seem to grip the ball better, and thus react to spin more positively. BTW, I am an old 75 year-old, so probably up for abuse from young kids, but on the other hand, I have only been playing for 10 years, and currently have Zyre-03 2.7 on my FH, with very good results.

 

[ttarc]

Not taking any side here, but I would like to add the table to the mix. I feel that of the tables I play on, the newest, made by Tibhar, are both the shiniest, and the fastest. I much prefer the older Butterfly tables, which seem to grip the ball better, and thus react to spin more positively. BTW, I am an old 75 year-old, so probably up for abuse from young kids, but on the other hand, I have only been playing for 10 years, and currently have Zyre-03 2.7 on my FH, with very good results.

ITTF finally requires a friction test and puts the tables in three ranges based on the coefficient of friction (I has the lowest CoF, III the highest) 1) (that's not the type shown in the list on https://equipment.ittf.com/#/equipment/tables one has to click on each table to see the friction range...)

1) M1: tables https://equipment.ittf.com/#/equipment/manuals

I wouldn't say that it's purely rubbers. It seems to me that any slow heavy spin that rises too high over the net can easily be clobbered through now. I think the game has moved towards removal of time from the opponent more than spin. I only played with the old ball for 1-2 years before the new ball but ai remember the old ball fizzing with spin and arc.

There are two seemingly contradictory findings:
1. without spin (just dropped onto a table/steel plate): 1) compared 40 mm celluloid with 40 mm seamed and seamless ABS balls. Bounce height: seamless > seamed (Nittaku > DHS) > celluloid. 38 mm celluloid vs 40 mm celluloid are/were around the same I would guess.
2. with spin (using a robot): 2) compared the "peak height after impact" on he table with spin and found that the plastic ball peaked lower (around 1.1 cm or ~0.43" less).

1) Effect of table tennis balls with different materials and structures on the hardness and elasticity https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11025803/
2) https://www.researchgate.net/public...c_responses_of_elite_versus_sub-elite_players

 

[zeio]

Celluloid - 122 rps
ABS - 115 rps
Likely Nittaku Premium 40 *** and Nittaku Premium 40+ ***, in collaboration with Japan Institute of Sports Sciences (JISS)

In short, a difference of 7 rps allows you to take the shot much earlier after bounce than what would've been possible.

「中字」仕事の流儀（行家本色）石川佳纯篇【一球入魂字幕组】
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Fs411F7WG?t=574
200810 プロフェッショナル 仕事の流儀 石川佳纯
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1rD4y1U7a1?t=851

2018/5/29
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/china-open-2018.17862/post-233369

Ishikawa seconds that. The 40+ and the subsequent ABS variants have taken a toll on her spinny style. Sayaka Hirano supports that notion as well, saying that "I may have to retire" when she first tried the 40+ ball.

 

[Yurifi]

many valid points! don't get me wrong - of course I know table tennis has changed a lot over the years, shifted towards power a lot. but I also forgot to mention - everytime I play with someone who learned to play with old(er) rubbers tend to produce more rotation with plastic balls than compared to someone who learned to play with tensors. might be a coincidence but that's one of my observations.

I know there is a lot more power now, I had to adapt, too, but still - the concept of my game is still the same - based on rotation. I just added more power. some new rubbers actually help with that (especially D09c and Rasanter C53) ... I would like to teach the kids how to do open-up with heavy loaded spin so they get the feel about how they even create rotation. after that we add power and combine the two. one kid is especially amazing and understands this concept and he actually started mixing power and rotation mid point and he made a big progress just because of that last season.

 

[Yurifi]

Celluloid - 122 rps
ABS - 115 rps
Likely Nittaku Premium 40 *** and Nittaku Premium 40+ ***, in collaboration with Japan Institute of Sports Sciences (JISS)

In short, a difference of 7 rps allows you to take the shot much earlier after bounce than what would've been possible.

「中字」仕事の流儀（行家本色）石川佳纯篇【一球入魂字幕组】
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Fs411F7WG?t=574
200810 プロフェッショナル 仕事の流儀 石川佳纯
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1rD4y1U7a1?t=851

2018/5/29
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/china-open-2018.17862/post-233369

I realised it also depends a lot on table / ball combo - last year during the national champs, me and my doubles partner, we started warming up with Nittaku ball on the Tibhar Smash 28/R table which had blue color. interestingly, in the club we have same table but in greyish green colour - in our club it's perfectly okay to play with Nittaku ball but here it was completely different. different bounce, especially after adding rotation. we changed to Tibhar balls and everything was okay. very interesting.

 

[zeio]

I realised it also depends a lot on table / ball combo - last year during the national champs, me and my doubles partner, we started warming up with Nittaku ball on the Tibhar Smash 28/R table which had blue color. interestingly, in the club we have same table but in greyish green colour - in our club it's perfectly okay to play with Nittaku ball but here it was completely different. different bounce, especially after adding rotation. we changed to Tibhar balls and everything was okay. very interesting.

Definitely.

FZD ran into exactly that issue a while ago.

 

[Gekko]

I think the biggest element that no one I see has touched on is serve return. After ZJK showing the world that you can BH chiquita any serve, and then the new ball came around, there is just no point in developing a spin based game anymore. You serve, you pick up the ball. Your only hope is to counter the flick with enough quality to stay in the point. Any deviation from that pace is met with....Yep, go pick up the ball.

 

[Tyce]

I have yet to encounter people in the club that can actually chiquita any ball. The amount of people who even attempt a flip is fairly low here.

 

[NextLevel]

I think the biggest element that no one I see has touched on is serve return. After ZJK showing the world that you can BH chiquita any serve, and then the new ball came around, there is just no point in developing a spin based game anymore. You serve, you pick up the ball. Your only hope is to counter the flick with enough quality to stay in the point. Any deviation from that pace is met with....Yep, go pick up the ball.

This is not relevant at the level most of us play at, but even if it was, I think a lot of things are being confused. The chiquita as a weapon was actually de‐fanged by the change to the new.ball because it became much easier to counter even if the lower spin mde it somewhat easier to play. When celluloid balls were around, spinny chiquita was threatening. Now, a power over the table backhand is susceptible to a good counter as is a spinny chiquita.

Today, at even at the world class level, no one is so monotonous as to chiquita every serve or even try, the ease of countering and blocking with the new ball has actually made attacking every serve with chiquita not very smart.

The main point is that no one should blame any spin or lack thereof in the current game on rubbers, a lot of it is really and very simply the ball. In fact, the modern rubbers are essentially trying to make it easier to spin the ball especially with pace.

 

[jonol]

Pretty sure if modern rubbers were available back with the celluloid ball, people still would end up using them over stuff like Mark V.

 

[NextLevel]

Pretty sure if modern rubbers were available back with the celluloid ball, people still would end up using them over stuff like Mark V.

I agree, with the caveat that speed glue was somewhat cheaper even if less healthy and I haven't test how optimized these new rubbers are for spinning and blocking celluloid balls.

 

[Der_Echte]

Change of pace still works, but sheer rotation without change of pace doesn't protect nearly as much as it used to on the celluloid ball (38mm even more so), meaning that the window to produce a spin-first ball that is very hard to put away is much reduced, and the window to return it aggressively or at least with quality is much wider. That's the crux of the issue, not rubbers, and indeed they're mostly a consequence of the ball change.

In terms of measurements, power loops are actually when the ball is observed to have most rotations per second. The default contact is now less tangential than it used to be, so that the high spin to speed loop is less used than before, because it's easier to hit through. Doesn't mean it doesn't work anymore, or that it's not possible to achieve high enough rotation that it gives trouble to the opponent. Recent rubbers (say, last 8 years) got harder because of the way the new ball reacts and that change of contact to have a larger hit component.

Regarding your observations, pace still matters and so does spin-to-speed ratio. At lower level, it's still common to see that a slower loop is harder to block than a faster one, because it requires blocking more actively, whereas the fast loop is easier because it can be blocked passively. Same for counter looping, because of deficiencies in timing (the example zeio gave). Every player still has a certain comfort zone in terms of pace, that you can play with to throw them off.

Bran is IMO correct to note that change of speed of ball is a good variation, I can ague that at U2200 USATT level, that is the most effective variation, better than spin variation.

 

[Der_Echte]

Bigger ball plus plastic almost killed the spin. This leds to play close to the table and powerloop every ball. We should go back to a smaller ball to bring back style variety.
It was fun when had to face different playing styles.

Noooooooooo !!

Think of all the professionally trained Chinese and Inian kids training in the USA would do if they had to face even MOAR spin from adults and that dreaded VARIETY ???!!!

Those kids' parents would have their mind explode if we went to a smaller cell ball. Quadruple haha.

 

[zeio]

Pretty sure if modern rubbers were available back with the celluloid ball, people still would end up using them over stuff like Mark V.

Not necessarily.

The "ecosystem" was different back then. Back in late 2008 (with the imminent glue ban 2008/9/1), glued Sriver (1/1967), despite pushing 42, was still the default BH rubber for the majority of members at my club. Therefore, speed glue was the equalizer. Butterfly has admitted that initial reaction towards Tenergy was poor because of that. The Tenergy craze didn't catch on and peak until late 2009, when the price of Sriver started rising due to the appreciation of yen that using it no longer made logical sense and that's what gave ESN the opening to make significant inroads into the mainstream markets, particularly East Asia...

常識を疑え その2
https://www.butterfly.co.jp/story/front_runner/vol6_02.html

「スプリング スポンジが本当に良いものだという手応えを感じたのは、実は『テナジー05』の発売以降なんです。それまでは不安の方がずっと大きかったんですよ」（細矢）。それは研究開発チームのスタッフの率直な心境だった。独特の打球感と重量感、従来のラバーとの軌道の違いによって、『テナジー』の試打評価は低い時期があったのだ。
「例えばシュラガー選手は『ブライス』にグルーを塗って使っていたので、彼にはスプリング スポンジよりも『ブライス』や『ブライス スピード』のような従来のスポンジの方が良いとはっきり言われました。カーボン系の硬くてブレないラケットが好みなので、打球時にバイブレーション（振動）がある『テナジー』は合わない。ラケットがブレて安定しない気がするという意見でした」（細矢）

今になって考えてみれば、スピードグルーが使える時代に『テナジー』の試打評価が低調だったことは、当時の選手の打法にひとつの原因があるのだろう。
『スレイバー』や『ブライス』をグルーイングして使っていたトップ選手たちの打法は、ヨーロッパ選手に多く見られるボールを「厚く」とらえる打法が主流だった。ボールを「薄く」とらえたときのグリップ力を生かし、前陣でのカウンター、後に大流行するチキータに威力を発揮する『テナジー』の特長は、当時の打法にはフィットしなかった。だが、2008年9月にスピードグルーが禁止され、打法が変化していく中で『テナジー』の評価は一気に高まっていく。

("We only really felt that Spring Sponge was a good product after the release of Tenergy 05. Before that, we were much more anxious," says Hosoya. That was the honest feeling of the R&D team staff. Due to its unique feel and weight, and the difference in trajectory compared to conventional rubbers, Tenergy had a period where its evaluation in test play was low.
"For example, Schlager used Bryce with glue, so he clearly told us that conventional sponges like Bryce or Bryce Speed were better for him than Spring Sponge. He prefers hard, stable carbon rackets, so Tenergy, which vibrates when hitting the ball, didn't suit him. He felt that the racket was unstable and wobbly," says Hosoya.

Looking back now, the fact that Tenergy received low ratings in trials during the era when speed glue was permitted likely stems in part from the playing styles of the players at the time.
The playing styles of top players who used glued Sriver or Bryce were predominantly those of European players, who focused on hitting the ball "thickly." Tenergy's characteristic grip, which is effective when hitting the ball "thinly" and is powerful for counter-attacks at the net and the later popular chiquita, didn't fit the playing styles of the time. However, with the ban on speed glue in September 2008 and the resulting changes in playing styles, Tenergy's reputation soared.)