New Butterfly Hadraw 5

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This is what Sergio thinks :
"""The theory is correct, to stop vibrations from propagating you need to have a big difference in density between materials. The resonant frequency depends on mass, if you change the mass you change the natural frequency it vibrates at. In practice, this is more of a romantic idea... There are a lot of vibration modes occurring when you strike a ball, and how the blade vibrates is dictated by the construction, materials and shape. If the vibration you are feeling is for example at the tip of your index finger, changing the handle will do absolutely nothing about it. I've made blades with low density, hollowed wood, which had virtually no vibration, but I've also made blades with solid dense wood handles that had a lot of vibration. I've also swapped from one to another on the same blade without a perceivable change in feeling.

In the case of that specific blade, the biggest reason is that it has an extremely light Ayous core. Low weight is nice and all, but it has consequences on the feeling of the blade. An inner fiber blade with 83g and a balance of 2.4cm isn't common at all, but that low density core is also less stable. If the handle pieces were completely solid then I would say that there wasn't that could be done, BUT! they are indeed slightly hollowed. I still don't think it will make a big difference, but a dense handle might help to tame some of those vibration modes."""




www.sdcttblades.com / Insta: @sdc_tt_blades

Interesting 🙂 I agree 100% with Sergio about the shape affecting vibration -- if you change the shape, you're typically changing the length and dimensions of the medium that's vibrating (remember that blades vibrate in more than one direction - energy from the impact wave radiates out in all directions at once, and the blade vibrates as the energy propagates out through the wood's material). This has cascading effects on vibration at it alters the frequencies of the waves and this in turn affects the placement and behavior of the various nodes.

I also agree that vibration is related to mass, as you can't have increased density in wood without a subsequent increase in mass.

I disagree however about the notion that changing the mass and density of the handle will do nothing about vibration in practice / application. There will definitely be a difference in vibration, as the denser handle scales are creating a localised increase in resistance to vibration. Whenever physical wave energy in one medium encounters a denser medium, energy is lost through resistance... especially with a medium such as wood, which is anything but homogenous.

I admit any change in vibration will vary depending on other factors, such as the rigidity /MoR of the wood, as rigid mediums are more prone to transmitting vibration than flexible ones, as flexible materials have more resistance to vibration. As Ayous is a hardwood, it's mass is constructed of fibers and vessels, not trachids, and the cellular walls of the fibers are long and have multiple layers -- in cross section it looks a bit like a collapsed telescope. Because of its cellular construction, it is possible for your Ayous core to have both low density, and high rigidity - in which case it's still going to vibrate a lot, despite the larger number of air pockets / voids naturally present in the wood's cellular matrix. Wood differed enormously all the time in it's physical make-up -- between species, between trees, between boards from the same tree, and between different sections of the same board. (Wood is never EVER homogeneous in it's physical make-up like metal is...it's actually far more akin to something like bone.)

Long story short, while mathematically speaking there should *always* be a change in the vibration with denser handle scales, you may not necessarily (in every single case) be able to readily feel it, or discern the changed nature of the vibration simply through touch. The perception of vibration through your sense of touch is one thing, the actual presence / amount / amplitude / frequency of vibration present in your blade is quite another.

But if it's a practical / utilitarian outcome you're after, then it's a simple thing to fix: just swap out the handle scales for something heavier and denser, and see if there's any difference. 🙂 If there is, then great -- if there isn't or if it's worse, then put the original ones back on.

===

(EDIT: I added lots of biology stuff here later on, but decided to take it out.

I really do overthink things sometimes, to a stupid degree, and I can talk too much, too often.

Apologies everyone, apologies Lodro... I'm working on the problem I promise. 🙂)
 
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says Table tennis clown
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But if it's a practical / utilitarian outcome you're after, then it's a simple thing to do: just swap out the handle scales for something heavier and denser, and see if there's any difference. 🙂 If there is, then great -- if there isn't or if it's worse, then put the original ones back on.
Can't really lose that way so I shall do that.
Thanks for your kind and generous input.
Much appreciate it 🙏
 
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I've had raw chicken in an exclusive restaurant in Japan (I was very nervous, but it was actually OK). I doubt 'Had Raw Chicken' is a name that would gain much traction in the market though ;)
From what I know about food prep, it's good practice to always use the same chopping board for the same product to prevent cross contamination. So I guess this board is for cutting raw chicken
 
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I disagree however about the notion that changing the mass and density of the handle will do nothing about vibration in practice / application. There will definitely be a difference in vibration, as the denser handle scales are creating a localised increase in resistance to vibration. Whenever physical wave energy in one medium encounters a denser medium, energy is lost through resistance... especially with a medium such as wood, which is anything but homogenous.
I also agree with you, but you are only talking about vibration in general terms, namely the first vibration mode which is natural bending. However, there are many other vibration modes.

Nevermind the names, I did this a while ago to illustrate how people perceive flexibility and hardness, but these are the deformed shapes for the first mode (bending), and 6th mode ( central deflection ). The first illustration isn't entirely correct, in this model the handle is totally pinned so you don't see any vibration there, but there will be some vibration transmitted to the handle. However, as you can see on the 6th mode, there is no movement on the handle.

uAjztfJ7I9GfD-W5liukhbs5km9nrJB6papwOx40_0z6yenJDwKmbbCa6aqArIKchSq0ilGyEtiDf7b-hZg900E=w1280

TT gear lab also base their analysis on these modes

howtomeasure_fig03.jpg


However, these are not the only modes being excited, a lot more may happen and some of them, like twisting modes, also don't affect the handle.

Contour-display-of-the-mode-shapes-for-a-table-tennis-racket-organized-according-to-the.png


So, if the vibration felt is in the area of the index finger, it's probably due to the 6th mode, or some twisting mode. Changing the handle will do absolutely nothing about it. If the vibration is being felt at the palm of the hand, then using a denser wood for the handle might help to attenuate it. In this case of this particular blade, because I know the construction, I'm inclined to say it's the first option. However, if he is so bothered by it then he has nothing to lose so he might as well just do it and see the result.
 
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I also agree with you, but you are only talking about vibration in general terms, namely the first vibration mode which is natural bending. However, there are many other vibration modes.

Nevermind the names, I did this a while ago to illustrate how people perceive flexibility and hardness, but these are the deformed shapes for the first mode (bending), and 6th mode ( central deflection ). The first illustration isn't entirely correct, in this model the handle is totally pinned so you don't see any vibration there, but there will be some vibration transmitted to the handle. However, as you can see on the 6th mode, there is no movement on the handle.

uAjztfJ7I9GfD-W5liukhbs5km9nrJB6papwOx40_0z6yenJDwKmbbCa6aqArIKchSq0ilGyEtiDf7b-hZg900E=w1280

TT gear lab also base their analysis on these modes

howtomeasure_fig03.jpg


However, these are not the only modes being excited, a lot more may happen and some of them, like twisting modes, also don't affect the handle.

Contour-display-of-the-mode-shapes-for-a-table-tennis-racket-organized-according-to-the.png


So, if the vibration felt is in the area of the index finger, it's probably due to the 6th mode, or some twisting mode. Changing the handle will do absolutely nothing about it. If the vibration is being felt at the palm of the hand, then using a denser wood for the handle might help to attenuate it. In this case of this particular blade, because I know the construction, I'm inclined to say it's the first option. However, if he is so bothered by it then he has nothing to lose so he might as well just do it and see the result.
Thanks for the info Sergio, all great stuff and very much up my alley :) Particularly fascinated by the various modes you're flagging in your research. Its a great visual reflection of the physical waveforms themselves and how they interact (lot of similar patterns are observable in the vibration nodes of classical guitar soundboards -- not surprising since there's quite a few blades out there that incorporate the same low-density tone woods that guitars use (eg: spruce, cedar & paulownia / kiri)

I confess I'm not familiar with this particular research paper you've cited above, and so I'm ignorant of its contents & proposition. I have seen & read a few similar modal studies of blade vibration after impact, which displayed moderately similar modal patterns to the ones above, The papers I've read however didn't extend their testing regime to see if these patterns were consistent with changing blade density or different construction types (I note for example there's no indication in your images above if these nodal patterns were generated by an all-wood blade or composite.)

May I ask - is this your own research or was it from a published journal? In either case I would very much like to read it - are you able to direct me to it? :)
 
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Thanks for the info Sergio, all great stuff and very much up my alley :) Particularly fascinated by the various modes you're flagging in your research. Its a great visual reflection of the physical waveforms themselves and how they interact (lot of similar patterns are observable in the vibration nodes of classical guitar soundboards -- not surprising since there's quite a few blades out there that incorporate the same low-density tone woods that guitars use (eg: spruce, cedar & paulownia / kiri)

I confess I'm not familiar with this particular research paper you've cited above, and so I'm ignorant of its contents & proposition. I have seen & read a few similar modal studies of blade vibration after impact, which displayed moderately similar modal patterns to the ones above, The papers I've read however didn't extend their testing regime to see if these patterns were consistent with changing blade density or different construction types (I note for example there's no indication in your images above if these nodal patterns were generated by an all-wood blade or composite.)

May I ask - is this your own research or was it from a published journal? In either case I would very much like to read it - are you able to direct me to it? :)
Sorry to the OP for polluting the thread, but don't want to leave this question hanging.

The first example is from my own research that I did a while back, when I was still working as an engineer. I did a lot of seismic reinforcement analysis, and one of the steps was the modal analysis of the structure (by using FEM analysis), calibrated with ground tests and modal analysis of the structure itself (modes of vibration).

The vibration modes are an intrinsic property of the material, the deformed shapes stay roughly the same, what changes is the frequency they vibrate at, and the amount of deformation. You can change the shapes of the modes by changing the shape of the blade, or the density of the individual layers. They might become more or less elongated, bigger or smaller (aka sweetspot), but the order they occur in stays the same. To put it shortly, the patterns are always there, but they might vibrate at a frequency that's imperceptible to us, or it may also be the case that the energy required to excite them is out of the scope of a TT stroke.

The last image is from a published study and you can find it here: https://www.researchgate.net/public..._rackets_and_balls_The_acoustics_of_ping_pong
 
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@hipnotic: No problem at all.

And since you are a bat maker, I do have questions regarding "this type of blade" composition wise.

I hope you do not mind giving us the insights.

Here are my questions:

1. I notice that in the old day, Stiga Offensive Classic has composition of koto - spruce - ayous -spruce - koto, but later on Stiga changed it to limba - spruce - ayous - spruce - limba. Are there any good reasons why they use limba instead of koto later on? Is it a better combination with ayous and spruce?

I notice that Avalox P500 is a classic but they introduced Avalox BT555, which they said an improvement of P500. Is it true that limba outerply is better compared to koto for such compositions?

There are lots of other brands which have limba - spruce - ayous - spruce - limba blade also. But very few, who has that composition with koto outerply (I can only think of ITC Dynarc T5 and now Hadraw 5).

2. I notice that most limba - spruce - ayous - spruce - limba blades are in the range of 5.6 - 5.7 mm in thickness (Dicon, Avalox BT555, BTY Chuan Chih Yuan, Tibhar Drinkhall OC, etc). But lately, there are thicker blades around 5.9 - 6.0 mm (for example: Stiga Infinity vps and Hadraw 5).

What I feel when using this type of blades (let's say Dicon), they are rather stiff but springy. When you increase the thickness, it becomes stiffer but more springy. What do you think is the optimum thickness before you lost much control (because it becomes too springy)?

3. Dicon and BTY Chuan Chih Yuan have rather solid feel but Stiga OC and Infinity vps have rather hollow feel. However, their composition are the same. Is it because of the hollow handle of Stiga? Dicon has kind of hollow handle as well. I believe that BTY CCY also has hollow handle. What makes the blade felt solid or felt hollow?

I hope that I don't bother you with these questions. Thank you.
 
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@hipnotic: No problem at all.

And since you are a bat maker, I do have questions regarding "this type of blade" composition wise.

I hope you do not mind giving us the insights.

Here are my questions:

1. I notice that in the old day, Stiga Offensive Classic has composition of koto - spruce - ayous -spruce - koto, but later on Stiga changed it to limba - spruce - ayous - spruce - limba. Are there any good reasons why they use limba instead of koto later on? Is it a better combination with ayous and spruce?

I notice that Avalox P500 is a classic but they introduced Avalox BT555, which they said an improvement of P500. Is it true that limba outerply is better compared to koto for such compositions?

There are lots of other brands which have limba - spruce - ayous - spruce - limba blade also. But very few, who has that composition with koto outerply (I can only think of ITC Dynarc T5 and now Hadraw 5).

2. I notice that most limba - spruce - ayous - spruce - limba blades are in the range of 5.6 - 5.7 mm in thickness (Dicon, Avalox BT555, BTY Chuan Chih Yuan, Tibhar Drinkhall OC, etc). But lately, there are thicker blades around 5.9 - 6.0 mm (for example: Stiga Infinity vps and Hadraw 5).

What I feel when using this type of blades (let's say Dicon), they are rather stiff but springy. When you increase the thickness, it becomes stiffer but more springy. What do you think is the optimum thickness before you lost much control (because it becomes too springy)?

3. Dicon and BTY Chuan Chih Yuan have rather solid feel but Stiga OC and Infinity vps have rather hollow feel. However, their composition are the same. Is it because of the hollow handle of Stiga? Dicon has kind of hollow handle as well. I believe that BTY CCY also has hollow handle. What makes the blade felt solid or felt hollow?

I hope that I don't bother you with these questions. Thank you.
Following the thread, and my 2 cents are,(though unwarranted...) it's just simply more of the trend to use Limba in 5ply blades nowadays with the 40+ ball in mind but would definitely want to hear what Sergio has to say about it :)
 
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Just circling back as I have now used the Hadraw for a few sessions - mine is 89g and I have Aurus and Aurus soft on it. By way of comparison my main blade is a Franciska with the same rubbers and have also been trying out a really nice Avalox BT777.

It has not blown me away - whilst I really like the handle, which is similar to the Franziska, the feel of the blade itself is a little underwhelming. It is slower and less dynamic than the Franziska and probably similar in speed to the 7 ply Avalox, but it lacks the superb feel of the Avalox and feels like it is not generating as much spin.

There is nothing it does wrong, but I had hoped for more. My son plays with a Falcima, and this stood out as a more dynamic and direct blade that was a little like an all wood Viscaria - faster than the Hadraw.

I may need to try it with some different rubbers, but right now the other two blades I am playing with are better in my view.
 
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Just circling back as I have now used the Hadraw for a few sessions - mine is 89g and I have Aurus and Aurus soft on it. By way of comparison my main blade is a Franciska with the same rubbers and have also been trying out a really nice Avalox BT777.

It has not blown me away - whilst I really like the handle, which is similar to the Franziska, the feel of the blade itself is a little underwhelming. It is slower and less dynamic than the Franziska and probably similar in speed to the 7 ply Avalox, but it lacks the superb feel of the Avalox and feels like it is not generating as much spin.

There is nothing it does wrong, but I had hoped for more. My son plays with a Falcima, and this stood out as a more dynamic and direct blade that was a little like an all wood Viscaria - faster than the Hadraw.

I may need to try it with some different rubbers, but right now the other two blades I am playing with are better in my view.
I knew this would happen and anyway, I would have only bought the Hadraw for the great looking handle. 😂
My 5 wood blade from TSP, now available as a Victas came alive with a couple of Neo, a 37 on the BH and a 40 on the FH.
 
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Butterfly's line of products, previously named Hadraw Series (VK, SK, etc.) have been discontinued if I recalled correctly.

However, I just saw a new Butterfly Hadraw 5 recently at Butterfly Global Site (website) and I think that it is beautiful.

If I asses correctly, it is made of koto - spruce - ayous (or kiri?) - spruce - koto, with thickness of 5.9mm and head size of 157x150 mm. I think it is an improved Avalox P500 (and also BTY Kong Ling Hui allwood 5-ply, which is only 5.6-5.7 mm in thickness).

Picture is as follows:

View attachment 28835

According to BTY's description, speed is 10.7 (which means that it is similar to BTY Petr Korbel).

So, I am curious, if anybody here have tried this blade?

Thank you.
I think the oddly colored layer underneath the first layer of wood is what the earlier Hadraw "S" series wood as "Wenge". I own a Hadraw SR blade. The grain on the side looks exactly like the wenge layer. So my guess is they're "immitating" the construction of a 5ply carbon blade but using a layer of wenge instead of a layer of carbon.

Havent used Hadraw 5 but wenge wood is stiff. I think players who like getting their dwell time from the wood instead of the rubber will feel that difference.
 
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