Question about Shakehand variations

[UpSideDownCarl]

I'm not sure if I ripped Smash fan a new one. The score indicated that... I won 3-0 and Carl saw a lot of the action and antics... but it felt like Smashfan was toying around (and paying for it) and not even half serious until game 3.

In SF's favor, it IS kinda tricky to play vs me the first time, especially on serve receive. When opponent is dead set to serve to my BH, I can make them pay. So first match and Rambo first blood don't really have much relevance in the long run.

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Yeah. You guys are very similar in level and play style. And when he is on he can be outrageously good. But he is a streak player where he goes for things no matter what. And when his timing clicks in he is kind of unstoppable. I have seen him start clicking and beat 2300s.

But it is high comedy to see someone come off a loss and start recommending equipment to improve the other player's game. Hehe.

Trust me, SmashFan is one of my favorite people ever. But he definitely makes me laugh.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

Carl, I'd really want to play some (genuine) 1200's. You'd be surprised because they're damn near identical to the people I do already play.

1200s would not be the issue. Playing a 1700-2100 level players would be worth it for you because you would feel weight of the ball when someone knows how to spin. Or playing with a real coach who can actually help you with technique. The stuff that will open your eyes to how much you just have not experienced would be valuable for you since you are so comfortable thinking you understand things because you THINK you understand the theory.

Personally, I suck. But I can see things and my technique is not why I suck. [emoji2] I am the guy who people watch and think I am really high level because the technique is good. And then I play a match and my serve and receive, my game skills and strategy are just not as good as my rally skill fundamentals. And I am okay with that. Because at 51, with other things going on in my life, I can do exactly what I like and want when I play.



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[UpSideDownCarl]

So, here are some photos.

This is what I sort of think is my standard grip:

This is what I think is my BH grip:

This is probably what it is more like:

Sometimes when I commit to more spin on BH or for flipping (this is the extreme BH grip):

FH grip:

Some of the variations of how my hand position changes and where my thumb is shifts:

Video of how the grip naturally shifts as a result of the changes in wrist position; you can see the hand, the fingers, the grip shifts as my hand moves; it sort of has to:

I thought a second angle on the hand and fingers needing to shift as the wrist moves might be helpful. Surprisingly, I think I got better footage when I held the camera while holding the racket. But there are things you can see about what my fingers have to do as my wrist changes position that you may not be able to see in the first video:

So, if your grip is relaxed, and you change your wrist position for different shots, I have a feeling your grip will just naturally change. And that is actually how you want things to be.



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[NextLevel]

I was once 1200 and I am not sold that Archo would beat a 1200 player. Technique is not everything. And I was not the training and looping 1200 player either - I was a hitter and blocker with some coaching.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I was once 1200 and I am not sold that Archo would beat a 1200 player. Technique is not everything. And I was not the training and looping 1200 player either - I was a hitter and blocker with some coaching.

Agree. It would also be worth seeing Archo play a guy like JP Kadzinski or Mark Berg. That would be a different wake up call than playing a 2000 looper and what spin is.


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[NextLevel]

Agree. It would also be worth seeing Archo play a guy like JP Kadzinski or Mark Berg. That would be a different wake up call than playing a 2000 looper and what spin is.


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JP is way too advanced (Mark is too, but at least, his age and style allow for discussion). There is an old lady in my club that I wish he could play. Her max rating is 1600 and she is really more like 1400 if you know how to play pips, but I am sure Archo will not get a game. Maybe Boogar may get to play her if he comes on a Sunday afternoon.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

JP is way too advanced (Mark is too, but at least, his age and style allow for discussion). There is an old lady in my club that I wish he could play. Her max rating is 1600 and she is really more like 1400 if you know how to play pips, but I am sure Archo will not get a game. Maybe Boogar may get to play her if he comes on a Sunday afternoon.

For me, the comedy would be seeing Archo not know which way is up and seeing them play without trying and have him mystified as he keeps getting pounded by some old guy who isn't even moving and seemingly has no technique. [emoji2] But I'm up for seeing Archo play an old lady.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

Plus, the commentary from either of those two crazy big-mouths would be worth the price of admission.


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[Shuki]

I would love to give archo a go at some of our advanced basement players. One is hilarious with his talking, "under hands" his strokes. One side anti spin, one side spinny nonsense. Red is dead sometimes but he has the same setup with black being the dead. He often warms up with one racket and then plays with the other just for the lulz. He's gotten to 1800 and held it for a few tournaments. But he'll say he's never been to a club before or he'll say he's around 1200 just to frustrate the opponent more.

arch would play someone like him and be like "how could I lose to someone that bad" when in reality he's just gotten good at his style.

underhand stroke= imagine someone bowling, idk how to describe it.

 

[Archosaurus]

NL, if the 1200 I'd be playing has a clear strategy of what he's going to do and really wanted to kick the shit out of me, I'd probably not beat him. Like Carl says, I've never *really* struggled to try to win and improve against someone who is on their game or above mine even. All my games have just been playing out drills.

Now, we will see what would happen after a week or two. I'm not so stubborn after I've experienced something.

Sadly, there wouldn't be any two sided smacktalk. I've always been humble to whoever's ever beat me or lost to me. Don't think I'm such a prick to disrespect people who would want to play with me, win or lose. My reservation for being a prick is booked here.

Shuki, I've played a player like that. There's no way I would think they're bad: I'd be surprised how badly they could beat me with such rubbish technique, and not even breaking a sweat. Makes you wonder how good they'd be if they got trained "properly".

 

[Shuki]

Shuki, I've played a player like that. There's no way I would think they're bad: I'd be surprised how badly they could beat me with such rubbish technique, and not even breaking a sweat. Makes you wonder how good they'd be if they got trained "properly".

Here's how training works. more match experience will make you better. you'll learn to deal with more types of balls using your style regardless of what your style is. a "proper" technique isn't required to reach a high level. All that "proper" technique does, is increase the limit that your level can get to.

So say you train for 5 years doing your own basement style and play against another player who's been trained properly for 5 years but has very little match experience. You would reck them with your basement style because you actually have the experience against different balls while they do not.

this is a big reason why "rate this player" threads never work out. a 1200 kid practicing with their coach with impecible form would be rated by people like 2000. while an actual good player in comparison to the kid with not "proper" form like next level would be looked at and said to be rated like 1600-1700. Looking at someones stroke means nothing about how they do in games.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I'm gonna give Archo the credit he deserves for standing in their with our ribbing banter.

But I will say, when you haven't had the experience and these guys do what they do, you can't understand what it is, what being totally mystified is, not knowing what the hell is coming at you, how it came at the angles it did and how the spin that was on the ball got there.

It's like trying to describe daylight to someone whose lived in a cave and never seen the outside world. He might come to think that the dim glow of a candle 30 meters away on the other side of his subterranean home is what the light of the sun is like. But some things you can't understand until you have experienced it.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

Okay. I thought about it and I've got two stories.

This guy is about 2000. His official rating is 1974. He really could be a solid 2050 if he stopped goofing around and then losing to guys who were under 1800. But back when these two stories happened, this guy had just broken 1900.

So, he is playing Edmund, who is really a goofball with serious ADHD. If Edmund payed attention and cared, he could be 2300 and has been 2250.

So, most of the time, this guy and Edmund split matches fairly evenly and he thinks they are the same level. And I ask Edmund if I can tell him that Edmund clowns around. Edmund says: "let's keep that a secret. I like practicing on his 3rd balls."

So, now I am watching them play a match and Edmund is just spinning the hell out of the ball. And this guy loses the first game at 3 and he's getting mad and upset with himself and he saying things like, "I don't know why I'm playing so bad." But the amount of spin Edmund is putting on the ball is crazy. And in the second game Edmund is up 7-1 and this guy is just about ready to cry and can't figure out why he can't get his racket on the damn ball. So, Edmund sees how this guy is falling apart and on his way to a nervous breakdown and Edmund stops spinning the hell out of the ball and starts doing "normal" loops. And all of a sudden this guy can handle what is coming at him. And he starts saying things like, "okay, now I'm playing better." And he has no idea what was going on.

So, same guy. Tahl Leibovits plays two matches with each of us. But Tahl plays us with his left hand. Now he plays me and I get 7s and 8s. I know he is being nice so I thank him. Tahl is about 2100-2200 with his left hand.

Tahl plays this guy and this guy gets 8s and 9s and starts saying, "wow, I'm playing pretty good. I think I could give you a kind of tough match if you played lefty." So Tahl goes, "Oh yeah, you are playing really good. You'd be a tough opponent if I had to play you a real match with my left hand." This is Tahl's style with something like this.

The next game, the score was 11-1 and the one point was at 10-0.

[emoji2]

Sometimes there is more than meets the eye going on. And until you know it, you just can't understand what that is.


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[NextLevel]

Brett likes to say that if you read the spin correctly, you can do almost anything to the serve. Sometimes, when I play my junk style against better players, I do much better than if I play with straight topspin. It's pretty simple to explain why. When they see straight topspin, they can react quickly because their brain is on autopilot. When I play my junk game, you see wristy flat hits and blocks with occasional topspins and sidespins, long backhand topspin serves followed by smashes and punches if you do not load the ball with heavy heavy topspin and bumps instead of pushes. People do not train against those things so their brains just slow down.

It's one thing playing bad players you are used to. But it is another playing a junk player or even a weird spinner who is experienced in dealing with players like you but you have none dealing with players like him. The number of times I just serve to players like archo and they put the ball in the net is funny to watch.

You have to play these players until you have enough experience switching back and forth between their junk and topspin balls. Adapting your stroke to the spin is not an easy process at the speed of table tennis.

In any case we have had this conversation many times before and archo will only get it when he sees it.

I play fewer weird players these days but it would be nice to let archo see what 1400 players can do, both the fake and real ones. For example, I was a fake 1400 player when I beat Mark Berg in my backhand match. But even the real ones can be tuff. Mrs Wilson has beaten 1800 players in competition before. Archo should just stop rating himself until he see the insides of a real club.

 

[Archosaurus]

Well, I haven't exactly rated myself recently. In all the videos I've shown, I'm sub 1000, so there's not much going on.

The first time I played someone who could spin well enough to really pressure you with the topspin, I couldn't even get the bat on the ball. And of course, I lost every time they looped. It wasn't like magic: my brain just wasn't accustomed to it.

So I'm pretty sure I would get my shit kicked in if I played someone with a solid conventional style. Hell, I always play new people to 3 - 11 or whatever first set to find out how they like to attack and see if I can deal with it. If they're a bit above my level, I'll have some problems one or two games.

But, it's a fast adaption. I doubt I could beat solid 1400+ players in under a month, unless I get the best coaching on the planet and become enlightened at the same time, but I'd be taking games in a week or two, I can tell you that.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Archo, look, trust me, if you haven't played with someone where your brain tells you the ball wobbled in the air even though it probably didn't, or you swing at where you think the ball is, but you can't really see it right because your brain is playing tricks on you, and you are swinging where you think the ball is, only its not there, then you might not know what we are talking about. If you've never went to hit the ball thinking it was going to go one place and the ball jumps off your racket at a completely different angle than you ever would have expected, then you can't know what it's like to swing at what you think is backspin and have the ball fly straight up or to swing at what you think is topspin and have the ball go to the left and down. All I'm going to say is, if you haven't experienced high level spin and high level deception, you really are in that dark cave and two weeks won't get you out. So, come on, please don't try and pretend you know what you don't. It only makes us derail a perfectly good discussion on grip and how your grip changes subtly from shot to shot.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

Okay, another story comes to mind.

So there is this guy at SPiN, very much a geek. 6 months ago, perhaps his level was Negative-500, I mean, really bad. At that time as he was starting and he was just starting to take lessons.

A friend was talking to him and saying that the game is deceptive and it takes a long time to get good. So this guy made a bet that within 6 months he would be able to beat...and he picked this guy who is between 1400-1500....let's call him Joe. Let's call the learner Lenny. So Lenny said, "In 6 months I will be able to beat Joe." And Lenny insisted on making a bet on this. And he wanted to bet a lot of money. But the guy he was trying to bet, let's call him Greg, Greg said he did not want to take that much money from him. So they bet $100.00.

The original bet was that in 6 months Lenny would beat Joe. Now, 6 months have passed and Lenny has delayed the bet claiming that the woman he takes coaching from had to go away on business trips a few times. He got sick. The excuses start sounding like, "my dog ate it; my cat peed on it", which were the stock middle school missed homework joke excuses.

I said to him "when she was gone, why didn't you take lessons from any of these other coaches? You may have learned something new."

But, anyway, now he has postponed till end of August (so 8 months for what he originally insisted on betting would only take 6 months) and now the bet is that he can get ONE game in a best of 7 match. And there is still no way he will win the bet unless Joe goofs off. He could play Joe 20 games and unless Joe is goofing around or being nice, Lenny will not get more than 6 points in any game.

This game takes time to learn and reading spin and tracking ball trajectory with different spins takes time for your brain to be able to process the information. From a scientific standpoint it has to do with growing more myelin around certain nerves. It doesn't happen over night and it happens more slowly in a 20 year old than an 10 year old. And much more slowly for a 30 year old than a 10 year old.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

And back to the subject. In playing around with moving my hand and my wrist around while holding the racket, even though I am not sure you could see from the videos, I felt how my fingers subtly shift as the position of my wrist shifts.

It was interesting to observe and analyze. It reminded me of something about skateboarding.

I started skateboarding when I was about 8. When I was a kid I went to skate parks and rode ramps and pools and just was in love with skating.

Now, when I ride a board, even if I haven't been on one in a few years, my feet sort of know what to do. As you ride, your feet make subtle adjustments, shift position on the board for different things. I never remember learning that or trying to learn that. But things like what you do with your feet to pull the board off the ground on an Olie, or how you do something slightly different for an Impossible or a Kickflip: at some point it became second nature and you don't even know how to do it. You just think the trick and do it.

I think it is the same thing with grip and shifts in grip. At a certain point those things just happen organically without you realizing the shifts in grip.

I think that is really more what those subtle grip changes are like for a seasoned player. You don't even realize you do it.


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[NextLevel]

I think that is really more what those subtle grip changes are like for a seasoned player. You don't even realize you do it.


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Someone once asked a top player whether he holds the racket the same way for forehand and backhand. The player said yes. Then the person asked the player to show the forehand. The player showed it. Then the person asked the player to show the backhand. The player showed it. The person laughed inside and thanked the player.

 

[NextLevel]

This game takes time to learn and reading spin and tracking ball trajectory with different spins takes time for your brain to be able to process the information. From a scientific standpoint it has to do with growing more myelin around certain nerves. It doesn't happen over night and it happens more slowly in a 20 year old than an 10 year old. And much more slowly for a 30 year old than a 10 year old.


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And the 10 year old almost always plays everyday. Who wants to bet that the 30 year old does the same?