Question on stepping around

[Baal]

I can do a reasonable backhand but I need to be in the right position and if the ball moves sideways I find it hard to adjust. On the forehand it is easier to connect with a ball that has spun further away or closer than I expected. Also it is much easier on the forehand to disguise the direction (though top players like Liam Pitchford seem to be able to completely fool opponents on the backhand).

Excellent point. It is possible to hit powerful spinny FHs from many less than ideal positions. That is almost impossible from BH side. The ball needs to be coming at whatever your ideal spot is (for me somewhat above the outer margin of my left hip). Trying to rip shots from an even slightly suboptimal BH position relative to the ball makes one erratic. And say you make the shot and the next one goes to BH corner? Bad tactics.

 

[Der_Echte]

But doesn't it go both ways? You can say the same for a step around on the backhand side with forehand attack too. If you watch Ma Lin plays, he did it a lot. When his opponent blocked it back with a wide angle to his forehand side, he usually lost the point. So it is like a win or nothing kind of shot to some extend because sometimes he could still save the point if he was fast enough to do a hooking forehand loop.

That was the argument that carl was making. He said that during a backhand stroke, your arm only moves a short distance(assuming that you directly facing the table or your shoulder is parallel to the table). However, I replied to this issue with the question of why not stand sideways(stepping around) such that your right shoulder is facing the table or even slightly showing your back so that your upper arm have more room to accelerate when swinging outward. Plus, now you can use your waist more by turning and use weight transfer which are not possible when standing parallel to the table with a short stroke.

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I think nivekkan is seriously MISUNDERSTANDING how to generate kinetic energy (movement), amplify it (impulse at right time and be loose), and transfer to ball (timing, grip firm at impact, use of leverage) in how it applies to the common FH and BH situations. (Yoass main points)

As zieo pointed out, sometimes a BH can be just as powerful as FH. Anyone in the path of my BH hit or power loop in 2019 will know... and I do not use much of a long swing... mostly compact, sometimes as short as under a foot to get Fh smash power.

As many have pointed out, it may be desirable to use a BH on a ball in your FH zone... like say if you already committed to use a BH and are out of zone... then you could adjust quickly by stepping forward or to the side with hitting leg/foot to get the ball in center of prime impact zone.

Many also pointed out that recovering from that shot for a ball that goes back to your BH is a very difficult thig.

You asked later in thread about the difficulties in getting to a ball on your wide FH after stepping around BH corner... here you show that you do not appreciate how dynamic a FH crossover step can be.

Once you get some good footwork training, you will discover and feel these things for yourself.

Yes, there IS a BH crossover footwork and yes, I use it too, mostly in doubles to bait someone to go to the BH corner when I am on other side of table... I cover those balls pretty quickly and attack with surprise. In singles, you would use it to get to a ball blocked to BH after hitting a ball on your wide FH.

OP shapes up to be a learning player without experiencing a lot of what he is talking about, a lot of us did in our early TT lives. He has a lot to glean from these threads.

 

[Ilia Minkin]

If you want to see the cross BH footwork in action, watch the point at 2:21. Dima is a master of hitting bachkahnds on the run. Most people in those situations start fishing/lobbing.

 

[nivekkan]

If you want to see the cross BH footwork in action, watch the point at 2:21. Dima is a master of hitting bachkahnds on the run. Most people in those situations start fishing/lobbing.

Yes.That is very hard to do on the run.

I think this is the closest to what I mean4:45

 

[zeio]

It is interesting that europeans and chinese focus on very different things. Almost culture shock for me when came to my club our coach. But he have been a reallly really good player. But he is around 50 years of age so i can imagine he teach some old school things. Yes, bh cross step is the same thing But in the other direction. Have also learned me that We should move and hit at the same time. He mean that the euorpean way of move first then hit is to slow.

When i clicked on the thread Link i came to youtube. Is this correct?

On moving and hitting simultaneously, here's a short clip from Li Sun's clinic. CNT players have also mentioned the European style tends to have a slower pace.

Yes, that link should take you to the playlists under "Clinics, Tutorials & Interviews".

 

[Baal]

The thing about Kreanga, Karakasevich and Dima is that their BHs are freakish. A big question is wht the rest of the top pros over the last 30 years don't routinely step around to hit BHs? The thread above gives lots of reasons.

Among amateur players, I have occasionally seen very BH dominant players. Almost always this comes from really bad FH technique they're not able to correct (including. footwork). They learn to compensate. Almost always this pattern emerges early on in players who start as adults.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yep. And Kreanga and Karasevich are not really looking to step around their FH. They just have amazing BHs and use them freely.

 

[ttmonster]

Sometimes ... I think we should just make up a rule where people posting such questions don't get an answers from the Goon Squad unless they post videos of their playing ... case in point .. this thread .. also I saw another thread where somebody was saying they are using Hurricane 8 on both their backhand and forehand and experienced that they cannot make shots when they are out of position away from the table and was asking for suggestions for a faster blade to help solve the problem .. I saw it and then after reading some of the replies from the OP .. I just gave up .. knowing that there is no point sharing experience or tips gained from hours of painstaking drills and match play with somebody who will not see the value of it and get offended just because they don't realize they are being given information that takes years to realize ... for free ...

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I think nivekkan is seriously MISUNDERSTANDING how to generate kinetic energy (movement), amplify it (impulse at right time and be loose), and transfer to ball (timing, grip firm at impact, use of leverage) in how it applies to the common FH and BH situations. (Yoass main points)

As zieo pointed out, sometimes a BH can be just as powerful as FH. Anyone in the path of my BH hit or power loop in 2019 will know... and I do not use much of a long swing... mostly compact, sometimes as short as under a foot to get Fh smash power.

As many have pointed out, it may be desirable to use a BH on a ball in your FH zone... like say if you already committed to use a BH and are out of zone... then you could adjust quickly by stepping forward or to the side with hitting leg/foot to get the ball in center of prime impact zone.

Many also pointed out that recovering from that shot for a ball that goes back to your BH is a very difficult thig.

You asked later in thread about the difficulties in getting to a ball on your wide FH after stepping around BH corner... here you show that you do not appreciate how dynamic a FH crossover step can be.

Once you get some good footwork training, you will discover and feel these things for yourself.

Yes, there IS a BH crossover footwork and yes, I use it too, mostly in doubles to bait someone to go to the BH corner when I am on other side of table... I cover those balls pretty quickly and attack with surprise. In singles, you would use it to get to a ball blocked to BH after hitting a ball on your wide FH.

OP shapes up to be a learning player without experiencing a lot of what he is talking about, a lot of us did in our early TT lives. He has a lot to glean from these threads.

 

[Baal]

Yep. And Kreanga and Karasevich are not really looking to step around their FH. They just have amazing BHs and use them freely.

And even with Dima the question is HOW FAR does he move to occasionally favor a BH? Now compare that to how far Gatien or Wang Liqin would move to hit a FH from their own BH corner -- and how often they did that..

 

[nivekkan]

And even with Dima the question is HOW FAR does he move to occasionally favor a BH? Now compare that to how far Gatien or Wang Liqin would move to hit a FH from their own BH corner -- and how often they did that..

I do notice that. I really am not trying to make the case that backhand is better than forehand in the general. I'm trying to find if the are situation where is tactically favored to use BH over FH and I was not sure about why BH has to have a short stroke that doesn't involve the legs and hips, though now I think I have some idea why from 4 pages comments and thinking it and testing it myself.

So please don't think that I'm defending something that I'm not.

The thing about Kreanga, Karakasevich and Dima is that their BHs are freakish. A big question is wht the rest of the top pros over the last 30 years don't routinely step around to hit BHs? The thread above gives lots of reasons

Same thing again. I won't say it again. But just want to add something to the topic. I think most people enjoy athletes that flourish via more unconventional ways, for example the penhold style, which is rare nowadays, of xuxin makes him more awesome than he would have.

I can work on it and it is totally possible for it to go well for you. Even if you find it will not be something useful in match play. That does not mean it won't be a success to work on it. It would still actually help your BH.

And you could always look at players like Kreanga. He successfully used his BH almost like a second FH:

Not many can pull that off in match play. But that does not mean it won't be useful or successful to work on and try it. No matter what, it would make your skill with BH better.

I think carl makes a really good point here. At most you can learn something from them. If nothing else, at least you can enjoy the their style.

Earlier you told me that me saying I would look forward to seeing your success was somehow not a nice "world". Perhaps there is a language issue. I do know everyone interprets things in their own way. And some people are more easily offended.

guess I have to buy an I phone now for the built in auto correction.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

guess I have to buy an I phone now for the built in auto correction.

iPones can get you to write the funniest things because of that auto-correction feature too. Sometimes it guesses wrong.

 

[Baal]

Nothing wrong with experimenting a little. Then you will see what you can do and what you cant. A weird weapon is always a good thing if you can develop one. One thing I strongly recommend developing is a very reliable BH flick you can use to attack short balls

 

[Der_Echte]

...I do notice that. I really am not trying to make the case that backhand is better than forehand in the general. I'm trying to find if the are situation where is tactically favored to use BH over FH and I was not sure about why BH has to have a short stroke that doesn't involve the legs and hips, though now I think I have some idea why from 4 pages comments and thinking it and testing it myself...

1st big and bold... It can take years of experience to learn the "when" and "why" and "how" of calculating risk. Nothing wrong asking questions, experimenting, or questioning "authority" on that stuff. It is a personal journey.

There are some "no shyt" situations where it would be favorable to use a BH over a FH. Traditionally, the Koreans use a BH control shot to stay in the point, avoid pissing away the point, and to get the chance to step around for the FH finishing "Quarter Pounder" they understand their game and how BH and FH link and do not overthink anything. It allows them to play an efficient game more free of dumb risk or errors compared to wild swinging risk takers.

This stuff about how to go about stuff is entirely personal and can/should evolve.

2nd big and bold... The BH doesn't require much space to generate bat extreme bat speed.

You can do that in a tiny space by CREATING MOVEMENT - (This is starting kinetic energy) that can be from simply moving upper and lower arm towards the strike zone you wish to set. It can also be from a short step forward to get to the desired strike zone middle (this creates much more kinetic energy to be amplified/transferred to ball).

You continue the energy flow by staying loose throughout, then stopping the upper arm before impact. If you are loose, the kinetic energy generated will flow through the elbow and to the forearm... the forearm will begin to move by itself. You just made the elbow a pivot and leverage point. Once the arm begins to move with this energy, you AMPLIFY the energy by adding an impulse to the lower arm (with tricep) making it go forward with more motion (energy). You stay loose and allow the energy to the wrist. As energy goes to wrist and it begins to move, you impulse with the meaty part of the lower arm to add even more energy. At IMPACT, you firm up the grip pressure to MAXIMIZE the ENERGY TRANSFER to the ball.

On the BH wing with a tiny step in, you can generate FH smash power with a 4 to 6 inch stroke. That assumes you got everything right. Position and timing everything is crucial. So is being loose. So is getting everything in the right part of impact zone. That is a lot of "if" to get right. The BH is not as dynamic as the FH, which can handle balls out of perfect position way better than BH.

So you got the "IFs" to go along with Movement, Amplification, and Transfer. That is the essence of a whip.

Think of how difficult it is to generate power or suddenly add power to a mass that is at rest. Damn near impossible and takes a lot of HP to do it. However, it is SO EASY to add energy to something already moving. If you are seated and try to get up with just your legs (no moving waist or arms forward... tough. If you swing arms forward and bend waist forward and then engage legs to get up... it is so much easier to get up. You are borrowing and channeling the energy of movement.