Russian Players should not be on tour during the War.

[M51]

So maybe fighting against ISIS was mistake? how many children died there? What abut german schools in WW2?

I see your point. We should definitely nuke Isengard.

 

[latej]

There is history and prehistory, and there is the decision that was made, and there is the implementation of this decision by russian people

Well, then go through the history...

I give you an example. When 68 year, Russia and other warsav-pact countries invaded my country, I was not yet born, and later on I learned about it and was more or less grown into hating Russians - btw. while still during communist regime - you understand that right, during comm. regime... But if you look deeper, it's not the russians we (at that time) should hate - it's our own collaborators... That's it... Don't look outside, look inside...

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

The root cause of the start and continuation of the war is the decisions of the russian leadership and the support of these decisions by the population of this country.

Unfortunately I fear you are blinded and in denial.

And the same can be said about Ukrainian side who wants to continue the war.

They were many occasions to make a deal and reach a peace agreement but the refusal didn’t come from the Russian side… and here we are years later with millions more of young men dead , millions who have fled and will never return.

Russia is also suffering with many dead , and economic decline.

Both countries are losing. However Warmongers and weapon makers and corrupt politicians are drinking champagne.

Im a neutral observer. I don’t think the life of a 20year old Russian boy is worth more or less than a 20year old Ukrainian boy .

I hope this conflict ends very soon because I’m really afraid it will turn into WW3 with nukes flying. Im very concerned there is no end in sight and things keep on escalating and that calls for more war are louder than those for peace.

 

[Egon]

And the same can be said about Ukrainian side who wants to continue the war.

We did not start this war, we are a peace-loving country that gave up its nuclear weapons for guarantees of non-aggression and security guarantees. We do not want the war to continue. We propose to stop at the front line that is now! There have been many such proposals, but russia is not going to do this, they want to take away more of our territories. They want our guys to withdraw from our Ukrainian territories, which have fortifications in fields where it is impossible to defend themselves. You hear about it - defend yourself!!!!!!!!!!! Do not attack, only defend yourself!!!!! We are defending ourselves, is this not clear?

 

[Egon]

Well, then go through the history...

I give you an example. When 68 year, Russia and other warsav-pact countries invaded my country, I was not yet born, and later on I learned about it and was more or less grown into hating Russians - btw. while still during communist regime - you understand that right, during comm. regime... But if you look deeper, it's not the russians we (at that time) should hate - it's our own collaborators... That's it... Don't look outside, look inside...

One does not interfere with the other - hating the invader and at the same time fighting internal enemies.

 

[Peter93]

So maybe fighting against ISIS was mistake? how many children died there? What abut german schools in WW2?

The reason ISIS exists in the first place is because the US invaded Iraq for completely bogus reasons, which then led to furthering divides between Sunni/Shi'a as well as general regional instability which allowed ISIS to seize on the power vacuum created by Saddam's removal.

It's also darkly funny to see people talking about this stuff being in "the past" when children continue to step on landmines or are born with birth defects because of the chemical warfare the US used.

 

[latej]

One does not interfere with the other - hating the invader and at the same time fighting internal enemies.

What do you mean by that?

Is the support for Zelensky going down? Are there voices asking for real negotiations? Are there even different views - like - are there people in Ukraine who see it in the way Takkyu described - that it's about enrichment of corporations?

What I get is more like 2 opposing views, but the reality will be more nuanced - and you will know these. I meet occasionaly Ukrainian people here, but I didn't speak with them about the war yet.

 

[piligrim]

The reason ISIS exists in the first place is because the US invaded Iraq for completely bogus reasons, which then led to furthering divides between Sunni/Shi'a as well as general regional instability which allowed ISIS to seize on the power vacuum created by Saddam's removal.

It's also darkly funny to see people talking about this stuff being in "the past" when children continue to step on landmines or are born with birth defects because of the chemical warfare the US used.

Sunni/Shi's where exist way before Sadam. Its not because US invaded to Irak. BTW it was sanctioned by UN and it wasn't only US but many other countries.
Is UN sanctioned war against Ukraine?

 

[jkugin]

They were many occasions to make a deal and reach a peace agreement but the refusal didn’t come from the Russian side… and here we are years later with millions more of young men dead , millions who have fled and will never return.

There were indeed many attempts to secure peace. Agreements were even signed twice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements). However, on both occasions, Russia violated the agreements and attacked Ukraine again. Even now, the President of Ukraine is proposing a halt to hostilities along the front line, yet Russia is once again refusing. Perhaps you see a way to stop the fighting? Please share your thoughts here.

 

[Angerer]

If it has history then ok. Lets kill people then

You're arguing with a conspiracy bozo, he genuinely believes "russia is defending" and spammed the "WEST IS BAD" message incessantly.

 

[latej]

You're arguing with a conspiracy bozo, he genuinely believes "russia is defending" and spammed the "WEST IS BAD" message incessantly.

I don't see piligrim's messages, I save time ;-) And it's reassuring other people recognize the same about him (see https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...-be-on-tour-during-the-war.39636/#post-581263) and yourself.

 

[tzifos]

The reason ISIS exists in the first place is because the US invaded Iraq for completely bogus reasons, which then led to furthering divides between Sunni/Shi'a as well as general regional instability which allowed ISIS to seize on the power vacuum created by Saddam's removal.

It's also darkly funny to see people talking about this stuff being in "the past" when children continue to step on landmines or are born with birth defects because of the chemical warfare the US used.

And the funny thing is that US left Syria to ISIS hands, and now they are cooperating with the ISIS-Syria government as ALLIES!

The "independent" media shout about democracy, the civil rights, and women rights like in IRAN but no one speaks about some US-business-in-oil-Allies governments and their laws that treat women as dogs. It is ALL about money!

 

[jkugin]

What do you mean by that?

Is the support for Zelensky going down? Are there voices asking for real negotiations? Are there even different views - like - are there people in Ukraine who see it in the way Takkyu described - that it's about enrichment of corporations?

What I get is more like 2 opposing views, but the reality will be more nuanced - and you will know these. I meet occasionaly Ukrainian people here, but I didn't speak with them about the war yet.

1. Support for Zelenskyy is declining—not because of the war itself, but due to internal corruption, which leaves us with less money for the war effort.
2. Yes, there are calls for negotiations—including from Zelenskyy himself, which is precisely what draws criticism from many. Yet in Russia, they simply laugh at his appeals and continue bombing civilians.
3. There are diverse viewpoints in Ukraine. However, I have never heard a perspective like Takkyu’s from Ukrainians; I have only seen that kind of view on Russian TV.

 

[Egon]

Is the support for Zelensky going down? Are there voices asking for real negotiations?

Zelensky is the elected president of Ukraine and trying to do something with him now is the path to chaos inside the country. This is exactly what russia wants, because it cannot conquer our country militarily, so chaos inside Ukraine is their desire.
We want real negotiations, but negotiations require the will of both sides - and russia does not want to end the attack, war and killings. They do not want any negotiations except the surrender of Ukraine. This is the same as wanting negotiations with a crocodile that has bitten off your hand and is holding your leg in its teeth.

 

[latej]

1. Support for Zelenskyy is declining—not because of the war itself, but due to internal corruption, which leaves us with less money for the war effort.
2. Yes, there are calls for negotiations—including from Zelenskyy himself, which is precisely what draws criticism from many. Yet in Russia, they simply laugh at his appeals and continue bombing civilians.
3. There are diverse viewpoints in Ukraine. However, I have never heard a perspective like Takkyu’s from Ukrainians; I have only seen that kind of view on Russian TV.

About the Minsk - it was said the Merkel herself said the Minsk was a charade, just to buy time... If this happens, and Russians see it this way (I mean the new "stop of hostilities", but in fact just buy time), it's not surprising they don't want to repeat the mistake again, esp. now, when they are winning or making advances...

I wish some oposition to Zelensky would be strong enough, and try to negotiate. But you says Russians would not accept, that sounds bad.

Thank you for your answer, it seems honest to me.

Finally, you noticed there was some tension between Poland and Ukraine because of Bandera. What's your view on that?

 

[Angerer]

I don't see piligrim's messages, I save time ;-) And it's reassuring other people recognize the same about him (see https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...-be-on-tour-during-the-war.39636/#post-581263) and yourself.

You are both trolls, well, you're simply so stupid that it pains, LOL.

Thanks for teaching Ukrainians about how life in Ukraine is. Pretty sure your "Russia Today" viewpoint is very helpful in understanding that the victim is bad and the perpetrator is good.

There are dive However, I have never heard a perspective like Takkyu’s from Ukrainians; I have only seen that kind of view on Russian TV.

Pretty much sums up views of Latej and a couple more people living in their bubbles, yet believing they're the enlightened "neutral truthseekers"

 

[Peter93]

Sunni/Shi's where exist way before Sadam. Its not because US invaded to Irak. BTW it was sanctioned by UN and it wasn't only US but many other countries.
Is UN sanctioned war against Ukraine?

Colin Powell literally lied to the UN in a speech that was prepared for him by the White House, which even the CIA said differed from the conclusions they had made.

More than half a million Iraqis have been killed since invasion - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"More than half a million Iraqis have been killed since invasion"

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

We did not start this war, we are a peace-loving country that gave up its nuclear weapons for guarantees of non-aggression and security guarantees. We do not want the war to continue. We propose to stop at the front line that is now! There have been many such proposals, but russia is not going to do this, they want to take away more of our territories. They want our guys to withdraw from our Ukrainian territories, which have fortifications in fields where it is impossible to defend themselves. You hear about it - defend yourself!!!!!!!!!!! Do not attack, only defend yourself!!!!! We are defending ourselves, is this not clear?

unfortunately its more complicated than that.

From the Russian PoV , Ukraine was supposed to be a buffer state (already a big loss from USSR days); not one hosting military bases to the benefit of hostile states which it had already started to become. They could not tolerate that there would be all kind of last generation missiles and weaponry pointed at them from Ukrainian territory and US fleet in Sebastopol in 5-10 years. It was a casus belli. Not to mention all the strategic resources that could be controlled in case of a successful campaign.

Ukraine is a sacrificial pawn in a big game of chess. The US/CIA fomented a coup in Ukraine, financed your current govt, raised the stakes and provoked Putin into the war. From the Russian PoV they are defending themselves just like the US is expected to defend itself if Russia had fomented a coup in Mexico.

Not saying Putin is a saint or a good guy. But he is acting rationally and I believe he is one who genuinely believes he is acting in his country own interest while it is rather obvious the Zelensky clique is just trying to cash in as many billions of USD as they can before the war is over (hence the need to make it last till the last Ukrainian standing) and they can all retire in places such like Monaco, Italy, Bahamas etc where they already have many 8-9 digits usd properties.

Not saying that its a "right" thing that smaller countries destiny is to be bullied or to be slaves of the bigger country. Its just the way the world has been for thousands of years. Cards are not being dealt equally.

What happened happened. So now what do belligerants want ? if both sides can't agree to an agreement that could be expected to last decades and not a couple years, then more grief.

As a EU citizen i don't support the official policy of supporting financially and militarily Ukraine, i believe it may lead to a more generalized conflict. I don't want my children to fight for your country. I don't believe it is our war. I believe our politicians didn't act for your true interests but for their own interest ie. virtue signaling (to win votes) + corruption taking a cut with money flowing back from Ukraine to their pockets and they don't care at all about young Ukrainian dying + making a power grab. I believe this war could have never happened and if we could stop this insanity and be all friends again, we would be a prosperous continent.

Instead Europe is falling into social and economic chaos, and now war, and from where i live in Asia, whereas 35 years ago i felt Asia was the 3rd world compared to Europe; now i feel exactly the opposite...and its becoming worse every year at an accelerating pace.

 

[M51]

I'm honestly a bit baffled that the mods allow this thread to go on.

Nothing is likely to come out of it other than bad blood among board members.

 

[latej]

Ukraine is a sacrificial pawn in a big game of chess.

This is exactly the point. It's insane and I expected, @Egon or @jkugin would say that at least some Ukrainians see it that way.