Shuki Development and Questions

[UpSideDownCarl]

Shuki, did you enter the U1900 too? Or just the U1700?

If your friend wasn't there and you entered U1700 and U1900, do you think you would have likely won both. Or is your training partner a level higher than you?


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[Shuki]

Shuki, did you enter the U1900 too? Or just the U1700?

If your friend wasn't there and you entered U1700 and U1900, do you think you would have likely won both. Or is your training partner a level higher than you?


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I would not have won the 1700 as I didn't lose to him in that. 1900 I lost in semi's to him so who's to know how I would do in the finals, he won pretty easily in the finals.

As for our level difference. He says we're the same level but I don't believe we are, I feel like he's a higher level than me. I can just read opponents better than him and have a few redeeming qualities of my game that outshine him. His form, control and pace are better than mine but he takes a while to adjust to opponents.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

In the 1700, how far did you get before you lost? Was it in finals? Semi-finals? Or earlier?


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[UpSideDownCarl]

In the end, in my opinion, if you played your event, one level up, and one level up from that, so, three events, that is okay, especially until you know your level for sure.

But I have to be honest with you, if the U1900 was too easy and the best player you faced was about 1750, that just means the people who should have been in the U1900 weren't there. And, unless 1900 means something different there than it does on the east coast, a real 1900 level player would rip through what I saw of your game.

Paul David--he's a Guyanese coach, who, when training is about 2500--one time he said to me, "1900 is a very good player. A lot of the time someone says 'so and so is 1900' and you look at their official rating and they are 1670." And it is true. A lot of times people will say, "that guy is 2100," when he is really 1890s.

The rating you earn is the one you have and it goes up as you earn it.


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[Shuki]

But I have to be honest with you, if the U1900 was too easy and the best player you faced was about 1750, that just means the people who should have been in the U1900 weren't there. And, unless 1900 means something different there than it does on the east coast, a real 1900 level player would rip through what I saw of your game.

I was unrated and my first game was against the 1750 player. He was the number 1 seed for the U1900. I think the group was just unlucky that it had nobody over 1800 in it.

 

[thekleifheit13]

We have the same problem in our tournaments in Ohio, everyone plays so far above their rating that the U1600 is more like a U1200. It turns it into a crapshoot as far as picking a division. I think in places where you don't see many tournaments you get that and it sucks for determining your actual rating.

 

[NextLevel]

Shuki,

Coaches like the Seemillers will point out what they believe are character flaws that are detrimental to winning. I said that your attitude to just playing and dissecting the game is great. I never said that your attitude to helping others during matches and telling them how to play you in real time would win you matches. That said, as we are not pros, what we look for and find in TT varies from person to person. As a pro, you want to win and cannot take as many risks with your actual game and how you handle things as a non-pro can. So trust me, your attitude is great as long as you are getting what you want. IF you want to win, you have to learn not to do the things that bring you losses. But I like the fact that there is an aspect of the game that you enjoy and focus on that will allow you to alleviate stress and take your mind of some of the petty stuff that the desire to win causes.

As a non-pro, always focus on the fun. Winning is fun for most of us, and if that is what is fun for you, then listen to the Seemillers. But if it is not, you are not paid to win, so you can do whatever you want. Some people just want to play beautiful shots. That is just as valid a reason for a non-pro to play.

 

[Der_Echte]

Sometimes, you just get a weak field, that is how I made my ONLY finals of an OPEN division ever. I was rated low 1900s and was so out of practice I was prolly 1700 level. Sometimes it works like that.

Also, sometimes a certain area simply doesn't have a an ocean taming with 1800 level players who at any time can win the U2000 or U2050. DC/Maryland area is one of those zones, so is USA Northeast region, so is San Jose and So-Cal area. MANY, like over 1/2 of the 1800-1900 USATT rated players he in Maryland/DC area are true 2000 level players, but everyone is a 2000 level player rated at 1800 and you cant win 'em all, so your rating suffers. You REALLY gotta play out of your ind two full levels higher to make SEMIS for these tourneys. The U2000 division I just played last weekend had 25 players rated 1800+ out of 40 in the field and ANY of them coulda went to finals. I was ranked #11 and made finals and lost by a point at duece, it is like that here.

Those who actually KEEP a 200 rating here have EARNED it.

A mid 1900s guy just got to FINALS of U2300 in shark infested ringer area and earned his rating of 2060ish. I have defeated him pretty easy the last three time I faced him in League (which is every bit as competitive as a tourney) when i was rated in upper 1800s.

it is just like that here. Think if I face him next tourney and win, he loses 30 points. If I enter two events and defeat him twice, he loses 60 points. That is the life over here and it can get rough. The rating doesn't play the match, the player does.

 

[NextLevel]

Great info and story from NextLevel. Excellent comment from ttmonster. Solid comment from darnner. Lots to learn.

I obviously play guys a lot higher than me, a lot lower than me and my level.

When you play someone higher level the pressure is very different. If they win, it was to be expected. You can play lose with very little pressure. If you can pull off a good upset, it is a nice confidence booster. So, there is value to that.

Sometimes when you play guys lower level, your head goes out the window because you should win easily and if you don't win easily or if you lose it can be a lot more stress than playing someone your level or higher. Learning to stay focused and control those matches is a valuable learning experience that can help solidify your level. Like how NextLevel talked about how, after a certain point he stopped losing those matches that he really should win.

Playing people at your level is really valuable too. As your level goes up, your rating will follow. So as your level outgrows a bracket, what will happen is, you will win the finals of that level but you will also win enough matches in the next bracket up that your rating will jump past the old level to make the next level up the one that is your event. And then, at a certain point you win that one and so on.

Playing someone where it is a dogfight, the match goes to 5 or whatever the full distance is, and many of the games, and the match as well, are determined by critical decisions at crunch time of each game and who is able to come through in the clutch. THERE IS A HUGE AMOUNT to learn from that kind of match. And, win or lose, you want to have as many of those as possible.


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You are being too kind to darner123. Listen, playing people much higher than you is largely a waste of time for all the reasons ttmonster and yourself gave. The only value you get from playing with them is value that you could largely have also gotten by hitting with them for the same time, and the hitting would have been far more valuable as it allows you to understand what is happening in a structured environment. IF you upset them, you can't tell how genuine it was unless it happened under tournament conditions, but that should not be your dominant tournament experience. In club matches, by the way, playing someone stronger than you often at best helps you read them and gets similar to hitting with them. But doing just one match and then walking off with a bad loss is not going to get the job done.

So if a better player gives you a chance to play with them, try to see if you can use the opportunity to practice with them - you will gain twice the value for half the stress.

 

[NextLevel]

Question for Carl and NL. Do you think it would be unwise of me to compete in a higher level section like U2100. AS WELL as my lowest rated section possible? Being able to compete with players around 1800-1900 and winning 50% or more of my matches would surely be at least good practice.

I learn a lot more from close losses than close wins. As a player, I tend to look back at my losses and try and figure out what I could have done better or improve on. I don't as frequently look back at my wins and think "how could I have won that game better".

I'm convinced entering the lowest rated group possible is a good idea now. But could it have also been good to enter one where the games are challenging and close instead of mostly cake walks and then a few that were close?

It's not unwise. As ttmonster said, over time, you will catalog and learn from your experiences. You just started this so you have ways to go. I live about an hour to 1.5 hours from the major clubs in Jersey and two to three hours away from those in NY and DC so I have accessible tournament play every month and think it is the easiest way to get serious enough to improve rapidly - your weaknesses help focus your training and there is always someone better to play and who has to play you to advance (in clubs, people form cliques). I play at the club in Philly where we host the state championship (I honestly believe they should move the tournament to a more central location so that PA TT is better represented at the tournament) so we have some decent players for my level of play.

I sometimes play the event slate of my travel partners so that I can stay engaged rather than sitting around when they play and it may involve events where I am the worst player in the round robin stage - I usually only play events where I am the A or the B player or a high C player when two advance, and only events where I am the A or B player when one advances unless I have seen some amazing results that I think justify playing higher (I am in one of those modes now). Sometimes, I may play the Open when I know that the entry list is relatively weak (like what Der Echte was pointing out). The main point here is that if you want to get better as a competitor, you have to put yourself in situations where you are under pressure. Playing in situations where you are always the underdog doesn't put you under pressure. I can go into detail about the people who I see doing this kind of thing on a regular basis and how they turned out, but no need for another epistle - let's just say that it is hard to be good at what you never do. Just have fun, but note that if you duck playing lower rated players or any style consistently, the gaps in your game will always come back to haunt you if you go into competitions when you have to face those players or styles to advance. You should not underestimate the importance of experience dealing with situations and how it helps your perspective. And again, never feel bad losing to someone that outplayed you.

 

[Shuki]

Newest dilemma needing advice or discussion:

So we've talked about how I really enjoy the game and enjoy losing as much as winning, as long as I get to play someone new and feel their ball I'm happy.

My game has really started to become extremely well rounded; hitting, chopping, looping, blocking, pace change are all there and tools I can use.

My mentality when I play makes it seem like I'm not trying and I'm just messing around, but that's really just how I play the game. I'm a talker, complimenting shots which comes across as rude to some people. My tone can be sarcastic at times when I'm thinking about a point so I seem dickish with the compliment. I also often have a look of disappointment when my opponent misses a shot because I really wanted them to hit it and get something going. This look of disappointment can be often seen as them seeing my thoughts being "did he seriously miss that, how much easier does it have to be for him"

This mentality has had 2 noticeable effects on my opponents. In games

1. It makes it hard for them to play seriously since they think that I'm not. It's a defense mechanism they use I'm sure, they can always look back and say oh well I lost because I didn't take him seriously. So I feel my personality in games takes my opponent out of their game.

2. The other noticeable effect I see on my opponents is more of them seeing me as "not trying" as a way of saying you're not good enough to beat me trying. They then proceed to trying to shove that ball down my throat and swing harder more irrationally than they normally would causing their downfall.




Now here's where things get interesting. Today I played a game where my personality seemed to have no effect on my opponent or their focus. This opponent is much better than me. He obliterated me in the first two games something like 11-5 11-3.

Then I did something I never do. I got serious, no more smiles, no talking just trying to play my strengths optimally. I won the next 3 games with EASE. I was looping heavy all over the table from both wings, following up with focus. No smiles.

After the game I looked back as I do on all my games and I noticed I was extremely unsatisfied. I couldn't figure out why. I beat a player that was way better than me and the turn around was convincing as hell.

Then it hit me. I had no fun. With my normal game of talking and smiles, playing to their weaknesses opposed to my strengths I have fun. Win or lose I enjoy it. But when I played with pure focus and playing to my strengths a win wasn't enjoyable.

I look back realizing I would have rather lost and played my normal nonsense with fun rallies, lots of smiles and talking even if the opponent isn't responding than win.

I do not have the competitive mentality needed to excel at this game.

The only time I truly play exceptional normally is with my coach when doing multiball and trying to actually improve my strokes. The focus is there and enjoyable in this situation but not when I play people.

What do? Any comments? Any advice?


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[Jaffar Lone]

From your post it seems that 1) You enjoy playing the game in a non-serious manner 2) You are not a fierce competitor 3) You might win if you play hard, but it may not necessarily translate as a fun thing for you.

Feeling such as this happen, it is not abnormal.. as long as you enjoy the game you should play it the way you want to.. whether you win or lose does not matter. You must love what you do, that is the main thing if you ask me

 

[Shuki]

From your post it seems that 1) You enjoy playing the game in a non-serious manner 2) You are not a fierce competitor 3) You might win if you play hard, but it may not necessarily translate as a fun thing for you.

Feeling such as this happen, it is not abnormal.. as long as you enjoy the game you should play it the way you want to.. whether you win or lose does not matter. You must love what you do, that is the main thing if you ask me

It's a bit disheartening though isn't it? Knowing you can play better and win but forcing yourself to play worse. It's kind of got me down, not wanting to play because I now know that I can be a better player but the expense is the enjoyability of the game.

The enjoyability is the reason we all play, maybe winning makes you enjoy it more, or improving. But knowing I can play better and purposefully choosing not to kind of deters me from even wanting to play right now.

I'm sure I'll get through this in one way or another.

 

[Jaffar Lone]

Well, you're right Shuki. The bottom line is that do you want to win all the time? Do you hate losing a single point to your opponent?
The thing that many of us table tennis lovers do not realize, is that playing table tennis, knowing table tennis, enjoying table tennis is a privilege.. it not something everyone can afford. Either due to lack of intelligence, lack of opportunity or whatever.. So any time you step on the table tennis arena you might want to rethink.. not everyone can play this game.
It is a pretty complicated game if you ask me

 

[Shuki]

So any time you step on the table tennis arena you might want to rethink.. not everyone can play this game.
It is a pretty complicated game if you ask me

Thinking about how not everyone can play the game sadly doesn't help me come to a decision or realization on much.

I think the drive for most players is initially wanting to get better than your friends. Then it gets to a point where you improve so much that those peers don't really want to play anymore. But in the mean time while you were trying to improve you went to a club and made some new friends to try and get better than.

These club friends eventually fall behind you as you were more ambitious and put in more and better time into the game.

I'm at a point where the best players at my club are out of reach by such a distance that it's not even a goal. It would be like those first friends trying to get better than me in a short period. What I'm enjoying now is teaching new players. I'm not a good player but I find that in person I'm a pretty damn good teacher.

But what ethos does a 1700 player hold. I want to develop ALL my strokes equally and be well rounded to the level of a 2000 player as my new goal. Breaking 2000 with the capability of playing multiple styles at that level is surely respectable in my eyes and I'd definitely listen to someone with that accomplishment when they try to give me advice.

New goal created, passion for the game restored. As my mind rambled around I found my happiness again. Thank you for the help

 

[Boogar]

Hey Shuki

I can feel you very much with this problem. I as well smile all the time and compliment my opponent. And in the same way as you i came to realise that im playing far worse this way.
As you may have seen in my videos i almost always have a smirk on my face.
However i find it hard to get in that full focus state and if im finally in it I can play alot better and beat better players.

My advice for you is to try and play some more of those focused games and maybe you will be able to find fun in that too.

 

[ttmonster]

There is a lot going on in what you said Shuki. However, I would try to break this down if I can. When you go up to the table you have to decide whether you want to play for fun or you want to compete. Once you make that decision, you have to make sure you did all that you could to back up your decision. In the game you described, you played the first two games for fun and then the last three to compete. I don't see anything wrong with, I would be very satisfied that I could turn it on when needed, and you know what , the guy would have been thrown off by your sudden turnaround and then if he is so much better than you he should have been able to raise his level when you did , if he did not, then on that day and on that game he was not better than you. Bottomline, results don't lie.

Now , what to do against players who you know have a weakness you can exploit easily . If I decide to have fun , I would give easy balls to his weakness to keep the rally going and then have some fun against his strength , and really see how much good I have become in having fun . I would pit my weakness which otherwise he cannot exploit against his weakness and see if I can have some fun , if not I will let it lie for the time being ...

If I have to compete, I would pit my strength against his strength first and try to go as hard as I can to beat him in his own game . If I figure out that I cannot win this way I might decide to go all the way or change tactics depending on what my mood is.

What I have learnt though , is that winning is a habit , so even when you are playing weaker players, you should not let them win too easily all the time , just make sure you don't lose your habit , you don't have to become obsessed with either winning or having fun , just keep it healthy and balanced ... that you will keep improving and having fun ...

 

[Boogar]

Btw the video of you playing isnt visible anymore

 

[Shuki]

Btw the video of you playing isnt visible anymore

Correct, a player in the background saw the video and requested I take it down.

But that's fine anyway, that video wasn't reflective of much anyway. I played someone nowhere near my level so I got away with nonsense that wasn't a way I usually play. I also have completely fixed quite a bit of issues since then. Thanks for the reminder that I need to record another one soon.

 

[NextLevel]

Shuki, I would be lying if I said I understood a word of what you are saying. Losing is not fun. For me, I have my most fun when I play beautiful table tennis. Sometimes when I teach it too but mostly when I play it. And when I play tournaments, I enjoy the battle to win even if it requires me to win ugly. I learned the game relatively late and my health issues have always affected my form. So for me, it is a big deal to be able to beat people trained for many years with proper form.

I can't tell you what you enjoy but maybe I can. Sometimes, we are close minded for holding people to higher social standards. Sometimes, we are open minded for tolerating viewpoints different from our own. I will be a bit close minded - you aren't going to break 2000 by treating your opponent's like buddies while playing unless you have excessive talent. People are always out for blood at my level.

This game is difficult and you need something that makes you both focused and relaxed while playing to get your optimal performance. Reading your post, I am not so sure that what is not going on here is really a fear to open oneself up to the possibility of true failure. True failure happens when you go for something hard and give it your best effort but your best is not good enough. True failure is the most rewarding experience you will ever have if you are properly prepared to experience it I have never experienced it and I think in some ways my life has paid the price for that reason. Don't be like me and fail to give 100% because you are scared to fail. Do not insulate yourself from greatness with excuses.