Shuki Development and Questions

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Yeah, I have to say, I am with NextLevel here. I actually almost did a Der_Echte style thread hijack with a story about the goon squad earlier today. But, I decided that it was a better use of my time to go back and work with the TTEdge App.


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Shuki, I would be lying if I said I understood a word of what you are saying. Losing is not fun. For me, I have my most fun when I play beautiful table tennis. Sometimes when I teach it too but mostly when I play it. And when I play tournaments, I enjoy the battle to win even if it requires me to win ugly. I learned the game relatively late and my health issues have always affected my form. So for me, it is a big deal to be able to beat people trained for many years with proper form.

I can't tell you what you enjoy but maybe I can. Sometimes, we are close minded for holding people to higher social standards. Sometimes, we are open minded for tolerating viewpoints different from our own. I will be a bit close minded - you aren't going to break 2000 by treating your opponent's like buddies while playing unless you have excessive talent. People are always out for blood at my level.

This game is difficult and you need something that makes you both focused and relaxed while playing to get your optimal performance. Reading your post, I am not so sure that what is not going on here is really a fear to open oneself up to the possibility of true failure. True failure happens when you go for something hard and give it your best effort but your best is not good enough. True failure is the most rewarding experience you will ever have if you are properly prepared to experience it I have never experienced it and I think in some ways my life has paid the price for that reason. Don't be like me and fail to give 100% because you are scared to fail. Do not insulate yourself from greatness with excuses.


Really like this post. It didn't even hit me that what could be causing me to have no fun with the win giving the game 100% of my focus could be a subconscious defense mechanism to future failure at the same level of focus.

Losing while giving it my all gives my brain no excuses, just simply that I'm not good enough. Not only is giving <100% focus easier, but it also gives me subconscious excuses.

Taking the game seriously all day and losing and playing poorly can make you feel like you wasted your day of play. But when you play for fun and all the games are fun the day doesn't feel wasted.
 
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And that idea of fear of failure and not wanting to commit fully to something, NextLevel really could be onto something there. It sure sounds like some of the behavior you are describing and how people are receiving your attitude could fit with something like that. But the truth is, only you really know if that is what is going on.


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Sorry my post got cut off. Basically the rest of it stated that if I give my all and do poorly all day I have what seems like a wasted day. If I play the game for fun, win or lose the day doesn't feel as wasted since it was after all fun.


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Sorry my post got cut off. Basically the rest of it stated that if I give my all and do poorly all day I have what seems like a wasted day. If I play the game for fun, win or lose the day doesn't feel as wasted since it was after all fun.


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The body is always learning so it is not a wasted day. IT's one of the common mistakes people make about putting honest effort and failure in proper perspective. It is good to use framing to protect the ego but not when it makes you give a sub par effort. But as you get older, you get more and more conservative and rely on these protective mechanisms more and more. Finding good ones at an early age is very important.
 
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Feeding the ego is never good.

Just convince yourself that "I tried my best, but failed this time." sounds better than "Yet again, I failed because I didn't try."

Trying your best - as in honest effort - is always a form of success.
 
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Another reason I don't give "my best" game, could also partly be be that my play style is also developed in a way that loses me the first game I want to say "on purpose" but I'm obviously not giving them the game.

Explaination: I play, testing all their defensive options against all my tools while also conditioning them a bit I play safe. I spend the first game as a way of collecting data and conditioning my opponent. Then I use the data collected and play a safe game that beats them with the tools I have rather than playing off my best tool.

Is this a bad approach to the game that could hinder me? I feel like it will help me develop all my strokes evenly to a higher level rather than develop one playstyle to a strong enough degree that would cover up my weaknesses.
 
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While the match is a best of 5, the first game still counts. Is this how you would play someone you know?

There are better ways to learn and read opponents as you get more experience. In the end though, you have to do whatever you do well at a higher and higher level as you get better and it is better to focus in that first as no one is good at everything.

The formula for most people at your level is to figure out first how they like to score points. Based on that, or knowing their strengths and weaknesses, they develop game plans and set ups to make people play into their strengths as higher level players will not give you what you want without your having to earn it.

Many players who get stuck at their level in the 1600-2000 range but have decent rally games are usually players who have not accepted that setting up players is a huge part of the game. No one is going to give you what you want just like that. And unless you are a pro, and pros do not do this, you don't have all the time in the world to get every part of your game to a high level.

Now if you just enjoy playing good shots and do not like to compete, by all means, practice forever. We have exercise TT players at my club and I think their money is as good as mine when supporting the club. But of you want to compete realistically, you have to get good at what you like to do and not waste time trying to get good at everything. Continue to build around your strengths based on your goals and see where it takes you.

But not using your strengths to win the first game because you are collecting data is going to lose you more than a few winnable matches.
 
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@nl

Interesting.

Do you find that when you spend the first game focused on setting up and hitting your shots it ends up being harder to study your opponent?

I've had players better than me get pretty upset after losing because after the first game when I turned up after collecting data they just weren't expecting the turn up and couldn't pull my momentum away. It's a mix of KNOWING that I'm going to play much better the next round and that giving me confidence, as well as my opponent turning down when they feel like I'm more of a low level.

They would get upset because of them turning down and not being able to turn back up. Which could truly annoy anyone who loses to a lower level player.


I've also had a high level player give me advice to ease up on purpose as a strategy setting up the opponents shots when you know the game is lost. Just be prepared for the next game. But this player was great in the time of the 21 point game and says it worked better back then. Now with a big deficit you can always come back since the games are too short. But back then if it's 16-6 it would be such a hard comeback that conditioning the opponent down would be more viable to prepare yourself for future games
 
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The stuff you are talking about and how often you talk about playing vs players who are higher level than you, getting them to think you are worse than you are, then winning after spotting them a game, well, I doubt that would actually work that often against someone who is really, actually better than you.

I mean, spotting a player a game in a best of 5 means you have to win 3 of the next 4. It means you have a very small margin for error. And collecting "data" when you are purposely not playing your best or even playing to your strengths, there is not much data you could collect from someone who really is better than you. Seeing what a player does vs junk does not tell you what they will do when you are giving them something that isn't junk.

If the player is actually better than you, spotting them the first game and expecting to come back, that is not usually going to happen.

So, to me, something sounds off about all of this. Sorry, but....that is how it seems. So to me it looks like: Either you are not being honest with us, or you are not being honest with yourself.

There are too many instances of purposely playing bad and spotting a better player the first game to "collect data" and then winning even though you are down a game and the opponent is better than you, for this to sound real, or me to take any of this seriously as reflecting anything that is based on actual circumstances.


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There used to be this club in NYC's Chinatown. The level of the players on a normal night would be anywhere from 1000-2200.

Every so often Tahl Leibovitz would walk in and he'd say, "oh, there are some good players here, good players!" And he'd be talking about the guys who were 1800-2000.

Now Tahl is 2450. But if he can get someone who doesn't realize who he is to play him a money match, he will take their money.

Or as Muhamed Ali once said: "If you wanna lose your money, be a fool and bet on Sonny!"

If you spot the guy the first game while clowning around and feeling out his weaknesses, and then win the match, he is not better than you. So what you are really taking about if it is even a real situation is tricking someone around your level or a bit lower into thinking they are better than you and then switching tactics.

But you shouldn't have to throw the first game to do that anyway.


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The stuff you are talking about and how often you talk about playing vs players who are higher level than you, getting them to think you are worse than you are, then winning after spotting them a game, well, I doubt that would actually work that often against someone who is really, actually better than you.

I mean, spotting a player a game in a best of 5 means you have to win 3 of the next 4. It means you have a very small margin for error. And collecting "data" when you are purposely not playing your best or even playing to your strengths, there is not much data you could collect from someone who really is better than you. Seeing what a player does vs junk does not tell you what they will do when you are giving them something that isn't junk.

If the player is actually better than you, spotting them the first game and expecting to come back, that is not usually going to happen.

So, to me, something sounds off about all of this. Sorry, but....that is how it seems. So to me it looks like: Either you are not being honest with us, or you are not being honest with yourself.

There are too many instances of purposely playing bad and spotting a better player the first game to "collect data" and then winning even though you are down a game and the opponent is better than you, for this to sound real, or me to take any of this seriously as reflecting anything that is based on actual circumstances.


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Remember when we played at spin and what I thought was lobbing you told me was actually fishing because the ball wasn't high enough to kill and it was placed strangely. Even though I was off the table sending it back slow you said they were good quality returns.

Those are the safe returns I'm talking about when I'm feeling the opponent out for the first game.

Edit: and I'm not throwing the first game. I put the quotes around it because I didn't know how to describe it.

I just rarely win the first game as I spend the majority of my focus on data collecting than on hitting my strengths. Sure if I find something in the first few points that's working out really well I'll abuse it from the start and win the first game. But I generally lose the first.

Aren't there some player's with styles that excel more once they adapt and some that excel harder until adaptation? Could it be possible that the way I play is the prior?
 
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More on why I play the data collecting, and conditioning comes from my background. I used to play a pretty popular video game called street fighter and a pretty damn high level. In that game at high level there's very little execution error and the player who collects data quickest and conditions their opponent into thinking they'll do one thing in a situation and then actually do another will always win.

That's the approach I took toward table tennis which may be wrong since I'm not at a high level in this sport, but it's the way my brain worked through other competition so I went the same way with this competition


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Most players at a high level have their game. You don't see ZJK, Boll, Ma Long or Dima use 25 different serves. Theyuses 2 or three with variations. They have worked out most of the returns to these serves to a high level so they know what to do them and how to read most of the opponent's responses so they are on auto-pilot. This is the advantage of doing what you do at a high level. Maybe the first time someone pushed their backspin serve or even reverse topspin serve short, Dima might have looked stunned. But at his current level, his body will anticipate it unless you do it at a 3000 level.

The basic strategic framework for an attacking player is based on playing the first topspin if they can or being ready to defend it if their opponent gets it. IT's also based on analyzing the first five shots of the rally/point. I have written about this elsewhere so I will just cut and paste it here after I finish this post.

If I am playing you without any knowledge of you, my goal is to play the first topspin. Therefore, I need you to push long or pop up my serves. IF you serve long, I will topspin. If you serve short, the quality of serve dictates my response. I don't move that well, so I need to try to get the placement of the serve to place that don't give me unpredictable balls.

I mostly serve backspin no-spin and pendulum and reverse pendulum sidespin with different motions. I usually serve short and fast. So I may start off a match with a heavy backspin serve. If you push that long then I have something to work with as I can loop on both sides. IF you drop it short, then I have to work harder. So therefore, I serve lighter spin to make it harder for you to drop it short and to challenge your ability to read the spin. By serving this to the forehand and the backhand, I am doing things I practice and collecting info about the opponent. This is how I intend to play. I see if their push or flick is weaker vs backspin from either side. I then adapt accordingly.

I am not a great spin reader, but I adapt throughout the match. I see what my opponent serves and get an idea of what his serve and recovery patterns are. Where does he like to attack to etc.

My point is that as an attacker, these game reads arise organically out of how I play and my adaptations to how I think my game is coming across to my opponent. If I have served short just about all the time, and my opponent is playing me for the first time, then he might not be able to read any easy tells that I am about to serve long, so I will do it when I know he is coming in for a short ball but with a first bounce similar to my short serve so that the serve goes half long. MY focus is first and foremost on my style. Based on my style, I can look at what gives the opponent trouble within my style. I am not open-ended and if I lose playing my style, so be it. I do push and block if my opponent's opening is not powerful enough to go through me, but I am not really a fisher or a lobber or a chopper. If I do those things, my game is falling apart - I might step back to retrieve one ball, but I am not mobile enough to consistently fish down 2000+ attackers. I would rather counter/punch block those balls and lose the point.

And if you beat me doing something I haven't seen before, this is where I hope my videotape will inform my idea of what I should have done. If not, it's okay. I am not 2700. Even players at the world class level have issues playing against styles they do not practice against regularly. But if you think that you can play that style at a low level and beat them, think again. Most players will not struggle enough to lose with an unorthodox style from a player 200 pts below them, so whatever you do, make sure you do it at a high level. And make sure it is something you can structure the development of a point around.

OR you can just mess around and get lucky.
 
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Article 1 - the short summary:

So, to cut a long story short, always be aggressive against the passive and easy ball. Your ability to make more and more returns from your opponent attackable is what determines your level as an attacker. It takes practice but if you train that way and don't play that way, especially on serve, return and third ball, you are wasting your time.

Aggressive TT Strategy – Earlier Shots Matter More

Since the style I play is controlled offensive with some blocking/counterhitting on defense, most of this post will discuss the game strategy of an offensive player. Some of the points will apply to other styles, some will not.
No matter what your style is, ball control and shot quality come into play. The reason why we train in TT is primarily to become better and better at making quality shots on balls that we find difficult to make quality shots against. Shot quality can be measured by spin, speed, their combination (power), placement and over many points, consistency.
You win a point when your opponent fails to make a return either because he missed your shot completely or he returned your shot long or into the net. As a player gets better, most of his important shots are a result of being posed a tricky question by the opponent’s shots and not just a careless error. Since opponents will not often want to give us easy opportunities to win points, we need plays/patterns in our arsenal to make them give us what we want.
The most important principle of offensive play is to introduce your weapons early in the point in the hope of getting the advantage early. An advantage is generally the ability to play a first good topspin attack or to play a point winning stroke. The reason we try to do this is that we assume that our opponent is also an attacker and if we do not introduce our weapons, he will. However, since we don’t always control the point from the outset (we do not serve first), we need some weapons to prevent our opponent from attacking first. Finally we need some defensive/counterattacking weapons so that our opponent will not win easily with (soft) attacks
Recently, I have coached matches and noticed that some things that I assumed were general knowledge were not. I would watch a player loop the ball and get a blocked return that sat up in the middle of the table. The player would then reloop that ball and get another block return. And eventually the player would loop a ball long. Even worse, a player would serve, get a long push to his forehand, and then push the ball back because of a fear of missing the loop vs. backspin. This would happen on many points. While this general approach might work against players who are not aggressive or players who struggle with consistent play, this approach usually guarantees that a player will remain at the 1600-1800 levels for a very long time especially if they learned to play seriously as an adult. The reason why these players play that way is that consistency tends to win at the U1500 levels. That said, the U1500 level players who transition best into higher level play are the aggressive attackers (usually coached juniors) who play the proper way but improve their shot quality.

An aggressive player needs to be looking for opportunities to play aggressive shots. When a block comes, an aggressive player is trying to either end the point or play a shot that the opponent will struggle even more to return. An aggressive player is not playing for a rally – he is playing shots to pose problems to his opponents in a variety of ways. He is playing loop drives or smashes on predictable balls. He is looping for the corners and not the center of the table. He pushes short or pushes wide in order to make his opponents struggle to attack him.
An aggressive power player who attacks almost every ball will often have a few misses when playing players of his level. But such a player will accept that as being part of his game style.
He accepts the misses as part of being the proper way of playing. Do note that he is usually missing because his opponents are generating balls that pose him problems. When playing opponents below his level, the shots are less problematic so his accuracy rate goes up. Moreover, if the aggressive player has played this way for a while, he actually had to practice against those lower level shots to get to his current level and therefore developed weapons for attacking them.

Moreover, an aggressive player may be missing as he figures out what the quality of his opponent’s ball is – once he gets tuned to the ball quality and reads the opponent better, or finds ways to adjust those opportunities to his strike zone, those misses become makes if the opponent continues to present the attacker with the same opportunities.
Since the earlier a stroke is, the more important the stroke is for your TT success, let’s look at some of the goals that an aggressive player should have when playing his first 5 TT strokes in a point. The most important thing to note here is that these are mostly INSTINCTS, not strokes. If you lack the strokes to implement this, you should still be implementing a form of these instincts and be developing your strokes to support them. If you develop the right instincts, a coach only has to fix your strokes. If you develop the wrong instincts, then you have to fix your instincts and your strokes. To be fair, instincts and strokes are not completely independent – it is clear that people take weaker shots to keep the ball on the table rather than good shots and risk missing. However, this is the easiest way to keep your level low if you are seriously improving your shots in practice, as the weaker strokes will stay in your game even if you have developed good offensive strokes. If you are missing a shot that your instincts tell you that you should be making, speak to your coach or look at the footwork and stroke and the sequence of shots that leads up to it and see what is missing. Then rebuild the shot so that it works in matches. Not taking the right shot will only make your weaker stroke better and keep you from playing table tennis at a higher level. In general, playing a lesser or more controlled version of the right stroke is better than playing a consistent version of the wrong stroke as the former is easier to build upon than the latter.

Serve

An aggressive player is looking to get a weak return to attack or a predictable ball to use to set up his point. An aggressive looper will usually serve variations of short backspin and short no spin in other to get relatively slow returns that he can attack or get his opponent to push into the net. He may disguise the backspin with a little sidespin. He serves short because a long serves gives the opponent the opportunity to attack with a full stroke. Therefore, serving long is mostly a surprise and should be deep and fast to prevent the opponent from attacking aggressively.
He will serve topspins as a variation in order to keep opponents honest, to restrict the options of good pushers and to get easy pop-ups when he can as it is easier to powerfully attack high weak balls than low weak balls. While it might seem like he is trying to win points on his serve, his main priority is that his serve does not get attacked – he is okay with a passive return from his opponent or a predictable return. What he truly dislikes is an aggressive return that leaves him unable to attack or continue the rally with a stroke in his play book.

Return

The aggressive player is looking to return the ball in a way that is either an attack or a control stroke that prevents the opponent from attacking. Therefore, short serves are returned with well placed deep pushes, well placed flicks or short pushes. Long serves are always looped. An aggressive player will avoid playing shots that facilitate his opponent’s attacks unless he believes that the attacks are not strong enough to get through him and that he can counterattack them confidently. An aggressive opponent will continue to look for the locations on the table relative to his opponent’s current position where he can cause trouble for his opponent by putting the ball there. An aggressive player will note what kinds of returns are causing the opponent problems and what kinds are not.
Aggressive returning puts pressure on your opponent’s serve game, so it is valuable to be able to attack serves offensively if they drift long or are not disguised enough to slow you down. Causing an opponent to think consciously about the quality of his serves will make him miss more of them as most people serve unconsciously and make mistakes when forced to make conscious changes.

Third ball

Third ball attacks are the hall mark of a true offensive player. An offensive player’s energy levels are at the highest immediately after the serve and in anticipation of the third ball. This is the first and earliest chance to end the point if the opponent makes a passive or weak return, and the probabilities the opponent will do this off a decent serve he is unfamiliar with are fairly high. Moreover, an opponent might play a good return but this return might still be controllable given the right level of alertness so the third ball attacker realizes this this is the stroke that may make or break his serve. Finally, if the opponent plays an extremely poor but tricky receive, the attacker must position himself to handle it. This is one of the common mistakes made by lower level attackers – they often assume the weakness of the return relieves them of the responsibility to approach it properly with good movement. The other common mistake here is to not begin moving the instant the ball begins to pop off the opponent’s racket – allowing the ball to bounce on your side before moving loses time and makes handling the ball harder.
Many third ball attackers get free points off their serves not because of the serve itself, but because of what the attacker does to passive returns. A barrage of aggressive third ball attacks forces the receiver to improve the quality of his return or lose the point.
For most third ball attackers, the most important strokes are the loop drive and the slow-controlled loop. These are utilized when the opponent can’t return the ball short or with sufficient aggression to restrain the attack. Most third ball attackers will loop drive their easy or practiced opportunities and will slow loop trickier balls, the slow loops having more spin and margin in order to remain consistent. Some will loop with sidespin to drive their opponent wide to either the forehand or the backhand to make the return weaker and set up an easy next shot. The slow topspin on third ball followed by a strong 5th ball shot vs a block or passive return is sometimes called the 5th ball strategy.
What if the receiver plays the ball short? Then the stroke is usually a flick, a short push, or a long push to either the wide forehand or wide backhand or fast to the elbow. Of course, other than the long push, such options are usually the hallmark of an advanced player. But the point of this article is to say what the instincts a player should be building are if they want to play the offensive style.
What a player should not be doing is simply pushing back slow long receives to the middle of the table or floating the ball across the net. While this may work against a player who cannot attack such balls, it can be habit forming and instinct ruining.

Third ball attackers have many shot options because any offensive shot has many placement opportunities.
A final and often underestimated aspect of third ball is that it is often directly linked to the serve even beyond such obvious statements as serve backspin to get a backspin return and then loop it. Serves may also be used to get returns to where you like them, or to move the opponent or challenge his footwork. Serving to the forehand will usually produce returns back to the fore forehand and serving to the backhand will usually produce returns back to the backhand. If you draw an opponent over to the forehand side, he may be slow to recover to the backhand and vice versa. An attacker can even serve short to the forehand and push(!) wide to the backhand against many players with positive results.

Fourth Ball

Fourth ball play is another key to higher level table tennis. The importance of the third ball attack has made the ability to return the third ball a big aspect of table tennis. Let’s assume that the opponent has made a quality third ball topspin (loop or loop drive). Then the main options here for an attack are to block, punch-block/smash or countertopspin (defenders can chop here as well).
Against a slow third ball loop, the attack is actually waiting for a block so that he can attack an easier 5th ball. So against a slow loop, the usual options are to block low and short/wide if possible (very difficult vs. heavy topspin) or to punch block/countertopspin with authority. Some players block deep and step back to give themselves room to countertopspin/defend the next ball which may work depending on the quality of the 5th attack. The ideal instinct here is an aggressive countertopspin of some sort or a tricky block to slow the opponent down.
Against hard third ball topspins, the block is the usual weapon as it uses the pace of the opponent. Opponents with good anticipation and mobility may also step back and fish/lob early.

Fifth Ball

The fifth ball depends on the 3rd and 4th ball. The biggest mistake I see amongst players below 1800 I coach in matches is the inability to quickly anticipate and play a strong shot vs. slow or high 4th ball blocks on the 5th ball. Some of them do not do it because they want to remain consistent. The key way to think about this is to realize that people usually play better when you don’t put pressure on them and that your shots should always be trying to put pressure of some form on your opponent. Just as importantly for those with long term goals, the inability to think about positively posing problems on the 5th ball will cap your game. Remember, if the instinct is right, all that has to be fixed are the strokes and shot selection options.

Strong shots include well placed heavy slow topspins, loop drives, smashes or even sidespins to difficult places (wide or into the body, all depending on the context).

The Rally

Okay, so you and your opponent had defied the odds and gone beyond the first 5 shots of the point. You are now in the rally. The rally is the one place where you can decide to win with consistency or with superior shot making (usually a combination of both). Given the way TT works, it is important to have good rally skills, but it is far more important to realize and focus on the shots that come before this as the earlier will usually define the match. Most rallies begin with a player having the advantage coming out of the first 5 shots, though that advantage may shift depending on who the better rally player is. You could argue that a defensive player is really a player who plays for the rally so he can win with consistency, though that is not the common definition. To summarize,
an offensive player needs rallying skills, but those skills should not be treated as replacements for trying to get an advantage in the first 5 shots of the point if the player wants to get better.

Conclusion

This is a high level view of what kind of shot selection an aggressive player should be doing. The reason modern offensive players loop is that it the loop/topspin is the most controllable and versatile shot in the playbook. Most/all of your returns of long shots should be topspins.
Each player is unique and some players may have special shots or plays that they can use. Do remember that to continue to get better, these special shots or plays must be able to put pressure on better players. As long as your instincts are correct, continue to work on your plays and strokes. As those get better, your level will rise automatically. If your primary concern is putting the ball on the table, even if you can run down and block/retrieve every ball, your progress will be limited by the difficulty of playing that way - it is always easier to win by doing things that create problems for the opponent,
 
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This is more up Shuki's alley:

THE 5 SHOTS + RALLY FRAMEWORK

Most TT matches at the high levels have a paradoxically low shot average per point, usually less than 4. Yet most players trying to improve paradoxically spend most of their time on rally shots rather than serves, serve receives, first attack and counter attack. It's one of those facts that is easy to explain but still hard to completely rationalize.

However, one of the most underutilized tools for analyzing a match is to apply the 5 shots + rally framework to each point to see how the points evolved. If you do so, certain things become clearer.

So what is the framework? The framework is to take each of the first 5 shots of the the point and see how the patterns are evolving. In this way, you get a better read on what is happening in the match. This is even before you get to the rally.

The reason why this framework is not consciously used by people is that sometimes, the strengths/weaknesses that show up in the rally are very similar to the strengths and weaknesses that show up in the first 5 shots so some people just assume that a general strength is always a general strength (wow he has a good forehand) and a general weakness is always a general weakness (he has a bad backhand). However, a nuanced analysis of the first 5 points and the actual sequence of shots can lead to new ideas and opportunities if you take your time to look at them. This can help you figure out why you and/or your opponent are winning points and moves you from the land of ignorance to the land of awareness. Sometimes, your opponent may be doing things to you that you are not aware of and that is fine - there are subtle things that are not easy to spot. But as long as you add to your toolkit for understanding the game, you will always know what you need. Some of these will actually help you see that people may have weaknesses, but that they only show up in transition/footwork, and not on base strokes.

A common example is when someone is said to have a good backhand - what does that mean? Is the backhand good vs all shots? Is it good vs backspin or good vs topspin? Is it good at making the opening shot, good in a rally or both? I have played players with good backhands vs. backspin but poor backhands vs topspin, such that if you served backspin to their backhand, you would get killed, but if you served topspin, you would get a poor return. And there are players who can make a good first shot with their backhand, but if you survive that shot and return the ball back to the backhand, all you get are weak rally shots. The same logic can be applied to the forehand as well. Of course, having good opening shots is better than having good rally shots in the bigger scheme of things because a good opener has to be returned to get into the rally. But the distinction helps because it shows you want you have to survive to get into the point.

There are also players who have imbalanced games in specific ways. For example, I have played a lefty junior often in my TT career who struggled with fast balls to his forehand and slow balls to his backhand. Therefore, if you wanted to push or slow spin, you were better off going to the backhand, while if you wanted to attack hard, you were better off going to the forehand. On his backhand, he blocked well but could not loop underspin. On his forehand, he countered badly, but had a large and powerful opening stroke which he could use pretty well against slow blocks.

Sometimes, people with good strokes have strokes that fall apart when forced to move. Against another lefty junior, I was losing badly in a tournament match. He had been looping the ball off both sides with spin and power and my countering game was dreadful. I also couldn't do much with his serves and often missed them outright. In a moment of inspiration. I decided to serve short to his forehand (it's a usual strategy for me, but because he was a lefty, I was doing it wrongly initially), and when he pushed the ball back, I pushed into his backhand. The backhand loop he had been making all day prior to this began to fall apart as he missed loop after loop. Nothing his transition problems, I used this play and other in-and-out plays which forced him to move to get back into the match. Had I just accepted that he had a good backhand loop rather than seeing whether he could make that loop while moving to the ball, I would have lost that match easily. In other words, serving underspin directly to the backhand failed, but serving to the forehand, getting a return and pushing to backhand worked. Details do matter.

Such details help you see how your opponents score points against you. It might not just be serves to your forehand, but topspin serves to your forehand that you miss. OR your opponent might realize that if he serves you long to the backhand, you recover poorly to the forehand. OR your opponent might always attack the third ball crosscourt which you can use to your advantage if you realize this is what he does. OR he might always return the serve cross court as well, which you can use to anticipate the return and gain time setting up your third ball. Sometimes, the understanding lets you know what needs to be done or what needs to be practiced to beat a particular player.

I mentioned a few of the common points but there are many more dimensions as well. As you experience and stroke quality improves, many more ideas become possible and accessible. However, that will never change the need to think in terms of the first 5 shots of a point. Your goal should be to get an advantage in this initial battle as early as possible. There are too many possibilities for spin misreads beyond this that are too uncontrolled. Also, using this framework, you will become more aware of how many points are won after you play the first attack and this will inspire you to attack earlier. You may also appreciate more how often you lose when you don't play the first attack.

The first 5 shots tend to be relatively familiar territory for most people who practice. And if you can turn it into familiar territory for you but unfamiliar territory for your opponent, you have won half the battle!


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So the 5 shots + rally framework is to look at both your serve points and your opponent's serve points and answer the following:

1. SERVE

The key thing here is that the serve must get a passive and/or predictable return from the returner. If the serve wins the point outright, that is good but not necessary. IF the receiver has too many options to confound the server, then serves must be adjusted to restrict those options based on what the receiver seems to not do well.

What spins are being serve? (spin)
Where are the serves being placed? (placement)
Are they high spin or low spin, fast or slow? (Speed/power)
Are the serves low or high? (bounce height)
Where are the serves being served with? (forehand or backhand side of racket)
Where are the serves being served from? (left or right court)
What is the server trying to do? (goal)
Who is winning the points or getting the advantage post receive?

2. RETURN

The most important general question here is whether the return permits third ball opportunities or puts the server under pressure by denying an attack or creating a quality ball that may win the point outright. The details of this are often based on looking at how a specific serve was returned.

What kinds of receive are being used? (spin)
Where are the received being placed? (placement)
Are they aggressive or passive? (speed/power)
Are the returns low or high(height)?
What side of the racket/stroke is being used? (forehand or backhand)
Does the receiver have to move and if so how? (movement/footwork)
What kind of placements are typical against a particular kind of shot (anticipation)?
What is the receiver trying to do? (goal)
Who is winning the points or getting the advantage post receive?

3. THIRD BALL
Is the server aggressive on his third ball opportunities? (goal/speed/power)
Where are the third ball opportunities being placed? (placement)
What kinds of strokes are being used? (spin)
What side of the racket/stroke is being used? (forehand/backhand)
Does the server have to move and if so how? (movement/footwork)
What kind of placements are typical against a particular kind of shot (anticipation)?
Who is winning the points at this stage?

4. FOURTH BALL
Is the return aggressive on his fourth ball opportunities? (goal/speed/power)
Where are the fourth ball opportunities being placed? (placement)
What kinds of strokes are being used? (spin)
What side of the racket/stroke is being used? (forehand/backhand)
Does the returner have to move and if so how? (movement/footwork)
What kind of placements are typical against a particular kind of shot (anticipation)?
Who is winning the points at this stage?

5. FIFTH BALL
Is the return aggressive on his fifth ball opportunities? (goal/speed/power)
Where are the fifth ball opportunities being placed? (placement)
What kinds of strokes are being used? (spin)
What side of the racket/stroke is being used? (forehand/backhand)
Does the server have to move and if so how? (movement/footwork)
Who is winning the points at this stage?
What kind of placements are typical against a particular kind of shot (anticipation)?

6. RALLY
Who is winning the rally points when the first five shots are over?
What kinds of shots are being used? (use all the dimensions in previous questions)
What kind of placements are typical against a particular kind of shot (anticipation)?
 
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Remember when we played at spin and what I thought was lobbing you told me was actually fishing because the ball wasn't high enough to kill and it was placed strangely.

Strange. Sometimes someone says something and the other person hears something else. I am not sure. I can't really remember exactly what I said.

You kept on calling those shots high balls and lobs. I am not sure that I distinguish between high balls, lobs and fishing because they are parts of the same thing or different ways of describing the same thing.

The shots you were talking about were about 1.5-2.5 feet above the table as they passed the net. They were short so they were slow. And they were angled enough towards the BH side that they were awkward for me to crush them with my BH. I wouldn't call them lobs, fishing or high balls. And I think I was confused by you calling them high balls when I didn't see anything that I would think of as high balls. But they weren't loops or drives. So I am still not so sure what to call them. I actually can't even remember if they were somewhat dead or had spin. But they were placed well to make them awkward for someone to take with the BH.

I think perhaps the most meaningful thing I said was that, if I wasn't being lazy because of my eye injury that I would footwork to my FH and crush it with a high angle (that weekend I got a cut on my eye: the Drs called it a corneal abrasion and I could not see out of it all of Saturday and most of Sunday. We played Monday when my vision was still a bit blurry but it no longer felt like someone was sticking a knife in my eye). Whereas, what I was doing was just reaching in and swinging at it with my BH. In a real match, if I let one of those go to my BH and did not footwork to my FH where I can reach over the table and hit they ball into next week, there is no way I would be anything but angry with myself. And if I let it happen twice.....those are balls that are easy put-aways with a FH. But they are awkward with BH. And they are coming slow enough that it is easy to footwork to the FH.

But the more important issue with those balls is, if you do one of those against a good player who knows what to do to them, you will definitely be backed up to where you would have to fish or hope for a ball you can counterloop to get back to the table.

In any case, let's see some video footage of what you are talking about.

Trying to put words to a complex series of actions usually doesn't work. Get a match that shows what you are talking about on video. It will be fun to watch.

Till then, keep trying. As far as I am concerned, I think the goon squad is trying to track you down and it is a good thing that Der_Echte used his infamous honey trap on those guys and got them to fall through a secret trap door, on the Brooklyn Bridge, into a subterranean holding tank under the east river, right before they were about to get hot on your trail. So once again Der_Echte comes to the rescue and until I see video footage that shows otherwise, I am going to assume that is really what is going on with what you are talking about.

Here, look, I even got footage from while we were on the bridge. But if I show any more of it, it will reveal secrets that could risk the security of the entire table tennis world:

c20253486067ed6bcc35139d29486c0f.jpg
 
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Thanks for all the helpful responses guys. I won't be bumping this until I get some new footage. Multiball footage Sunday. But no gameplay footage opportunities for a week or so I believe


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