Side spin theory

[lucas.campos92]

Hello!
Recently I've played in a tournament against very strong players(2000+ TTR points in Germany), and I noticed just how well they use the sidespin to their advantage, using the wrist and going with/against the spin.
And I came across a question, for the 3rd ball attacks if you want to hit with your FH, it's better to do a Pendulum serve so the most common reply is for the opponent to go AGAINST the spin and change the spin so the ball with come more to your FH side.
But when you receive a Reserve Pendulum (or whatever BH service), people recommend to receive it with the backhand. I know the the natural angle for pushing is more comfortable, but wouldn't attacking the Reverse Pendulum with the FH fall into the same logic of serving a pendulum service + waiting for the opponent to push against the spin and then attacking it? So why use BH in these situations?

What do you think about it?

 

[igorponger]

MAGNUS RULES THE GAME.

A school teacher of Russia did clarify the whole issue. Lateral Magnus force accounts for the wobbling effect on the ball, under permanent load of gravity force.

Be happy.

 

[brokenball]

MAGNUS RULES THE GAME.

A school teacher of Russia did clarify the whole issue. Lateral Magnus force accounts for the wobbling effect on the ball, under permanent load of gravity force.

Be happy.

View attachment 29792

What school teacher? I am very skeptical of school teachers. They rarely have real world experience. They teach what they have been taught and often get it wrong.

The Magnus effect does not cause wobble. The Magnus effect makes the ball curve to the right or left depending on the spin.
The wobble effect would depend on the magnitude of Reynolds number.
I have a document that shows that some balls will wobble whereas other won.t.
It depends on the range of the Reynold's number.

Drag of a Sphere | Glenn Research Center | NASA

The aerodynamic drag on an object depends on several factors, including the shape, size, inclination, and flow conditions. All of these factors are

www1.grc.nasa.gov

Notice that the drag coefficient Cd increases rapidly at slow speeds. This is why balls appear to suddly slow down and drop at slow speed. Some on TT forums call it the "drop effect", it is real, but it isn't specific to any rubber.
Also notice the pictures of flow and the explanations. Case three is where the ball will wobble. If isn't in the two lower speed cases.

See this. Notice there is an equation for the radius of an arc of the trajectory. This is key topic for TT. There is an optimal spin to speed ratio force every shot.

Curveball Trajectory | Glenn Research Center | NASA

All that is necessary to create lift is to turn a flow of air. The airfoil of a wing turns a flow, but so does a spinning baseball. The details of how the

www1.grc.nasa.gov

 

[PaddyPolar]

Normally in the higher game, sidespin is sort of numbed out by back or topspin. What you want to do is to remember return patterns.

For example, normally a short touch is played down the line, while anything wide is often played crosscourt.

 

[blahness]

Hello!
Recently I've played in a tournament against very strong players(2000+ TTR points in Germany), and I noticed just how well they use the sidespin to their advantage, using the wrist and going with/against the spin.
And I came across a question, for the 3rd ball attacks if you want to hit with your FH, it's better to do a Pendulum serve so the most common reply is for the opponent to go AGAINST the spin and change the spin so the ball with come more to your FH side.
But when you receive a Reserve Pendulum (or whatever BH service), people recommend to receive it with the backhand. I know the the natural angle for pushing is more comfortable, but wouldn't attacking the Reverse Pendulum with the FH fall into the same logic of serving a pendulum service + waiting for the opponent to push against the spin and then attacking it? So why use BH in these situations?

What do you think about it?

Glad to see someone on the forum actually thinking about advanced TT. I posted about this some time back. It is super easy to get jammed if you serve reverse pendulum and try to pivot on 3rd ball. The opponent goes against the spin with the BH receive and the sidespin is curving to your BH which makes the angle wider and hard to pivot against, they can make the angle very awkward for a FH loop. plus this can be done with a lot of control so it's low risk for the opponent and high risk for you. For loops it is actually easier to loop with the spin than against the spin (with high spin balls) so this makes it doubly hard for a FH loop off a receive of a reverse serve. Whereas with BH as the ball is curving to your BH, it will naturally curve into your ideal hitting spot, even when targeted to your middle (it will curve towards your BH). And you can go with the spin with your BH loop making it easier to control the ball.

 

[blahness]

If you search for "spin theory" on TTD you will see the thread.

 

[lucas.campos92]

If you search for "spin theory" on TTD you will see the thread.

Thanks, I read your thread and most of it makes sense to me.. I wonder if you got your theory about it from this video:

So would you agree with this conclusion to summarize? (Sorry to ask you in this thread)

1. Receiving against the spin is the easiest way to CONTROL the incoming ball( I feel this is easier with side/backspin), but not so good way to add spin to it. That would be, receiving a pendulum serve with my FH, hitting the RIGHT side of the ball. And the same applies to receiving a reserve pendulum serve with the BH, hitting the left side of it in the natural angle, this all goes against the spin.
2. Adding spin is best done when going WITH the spin, that would be doing a FH fade against Pendulum serves and doing a hook FH against a reverse pendulum, and this also is more safe, since the rubber doesn't exceed its "spin limitation"
3. Receiving Reverse pendulum to your BH is best done with an again of "swiping" from left to right (same as when you are doing top-spin on the BH and you want to go parallel with the spin curving to the opponents forehand) but then, again, we would have to hit more on right side of the ball to have this spin continuation...
4. Against a very heavy counter topsin is better to use a little bit of sidespin to control the ball, so you don't need to add a lot of topsin to it

With these base cases I guess we can reverse engineer the rest
Would you agree with these points?
Btw, I read your thread and I don't agree that balls against backspin has more spin, it actually has less spin than a top-top rally, I've tested it and this thought is just an illusion because of the low speed
I'm friends with some people from spinsight and I have access to the app since I'm a software engineer myself, I guess I will need to do some more experiment when I'm able to set-up the app and see how much spin-continuation really adds to the ball, comparing with a against-spin loop.
But also, this all is taking with a grain of salt, there are so many examples of professional players going against the spin for example, when receiving a long serve to the BH corner, they just pivot and go parallel with their FH doing a bit of a hook action with their wrist and still can control the ball, but this from the theory, would be the riskier shot there is, but TT is also about risk and decision making

 

[blahness]

Thanks, I read your thread and most of it makes sense to me.. I wonder if you got your theory about it from this video:

So would you agree with this conclusion to summarize? (Sorry to ask you in this thread)

1. Receiving against the spin is the easiest way to CONTROL the incoming ball( I feel this is easier with side/backspin), but not so good way to add spin to it. That would be, receiving a pendulum serve with my FH, hitting the RIGHT side of the ball. And the same applies to receiving a reserve pendulum serve with the BH, hitting the left side of it in the natural angle, this all goes against the spin.
2. Adding spin is best done when going WITH the spin, that would be doing a FH fade against Pendulum serves and doing a hook FH against a reverse pendulum, and this also is more safe, since the rubber doesn't exceed its "spin limitation"
3. Receiving Reverse pendulum to your BH is best done with an again of "swiping" from left to right (same as when you are doing top-spin on the BH and you want to go parallel with the spin curving to the opponents forehand) but then, again, we would have to hit more on right side of the ball to have this spin continuation...
4. Against a very heavy counter topsin is better to use a little bit of sidespin to control the ball, so you don't need to add a lot of topsin to it

With these base cases I guess we can reverse engineer the rest
Would you agree with these points?
Btw, I read your thread and I don't agree that balls against backspin has more spin, it actually has less spin than a top-top rally, I've tested it and this thought is just an illusion because of the low speed
I'm friends with some people from spinsight and I have access to the app since I'm a software engineer myself, I guess I will need to do some more experiment when I'm able to set-up the app and see how much spin-continuation really adds to the ball, comparing with a against-spin loop.
But also, this all is taking with a grain of salt, there are so many examples of professional players going against the spin for example, when receiving a long serve to the BH corner, they just pivot and go parallel with their FH doing a bit of a hook action with their wrist and still can control the ball, but this from the theory, would be the riskier shot there is, but TT is also about risk and decision making

Yes you are completely right on all points.

I guess the loop vs backspin thing is also maybe an illusion. I was testing my own stroke too and I am also increasingly doubtful that loop against backspin is spinnier. It is just that it is easier to generate high spin to speed ratios with opening loops against backspin, but it is not necessarily actually spinnier. Fang Bo did a test and showed that the loopkills are much spinnier compared to brush loops.

 

[NextLevel]

Hello!
Recently I've played in a tournament against very strong players(2000+ TTR points in Germany), and I noticed just how well they use the sidespin to their advantage, using the wrist and going with/against the spin.
And I came across a question, for the 3rd ball attacks if you want to hit with your FH, it's better to do a Pendulum serve so the most common reply is for the opponent to go AGAINST the spin and change the spin so the ball with come more to your FH side.
But when you receive a Reserve Pendulum (or whatever BH service), people recommend to receive it with the backhand. I know the the natural angle for pushing is more comfortable, but wouldn't attacking the Reverse Pendulum with the FH fall into the same logic of serving a pendulum service + waiting for the opponent to push against the spin and then attacking it? So why use BH in these situations?

What do you think about it?

And I came across a question, for the 3rd ball attacks if you want to hit with your FH, it's better to do a Pendulum serve so the most common reply is for the opponent to go AGAINST the spin and change the spin so the ball with come more to your FH side.

A different way to think about it is that the pendulum serve from backhand if the racket is held neutral by the opponent has sidespin that wants to go back to the server. So when served into the backhand side of the table, unless the opponent makes massive adjustments, the returns will naturally come back to the backhand side of the table and popped as well. Going against the spin doesn't so much move the ball towards the forehand as it prevents the ball from going off the backhand side of the table - the serve hit the left side of the ball so you hit the same side (right for the receiver) so the spin doesn't veer off the backhand side. It is easier to hit the right side of the ball with the forehand of a right hander so this is why the forehand is commonly used to return such serves with pushes in the past. So when a pendulum serve is delivered into the backhand side of the table, what the server is trying to is limit the opportunities the returner has to play into the wide forehand and make sure the attempts to do so are more obvious and harder with the backhand. The server possibly also has a preference for attacking a certain kind of sidespin with his strokes based on his typical training. But it is not so much about preferring to attack with the forehand, you can prefer to attack with the forehand with any service, the issue is what the sidespin limits in terms of placements and what spins you prefer to attack behind. People who are good at using their backhands to touch the right side of the ball sometimes use their backhand to push such serves, but it is delicate and requires good spin reading and timing to avoid popping up the ball.


But when you receive a Reserve Pendulum (or whatever BH service), people recommend to receive it with the backhand. I know the the natural angle for pushing is more comfortable, but wouldn't attacking the Reverse Pendulum with the FH fall into the same logic of serving a pendulum service + waiting for the opponent to push against the spin and then attacking it? So why use BH in these situations?
Reverse sidespin, the server hit the right side of the ball so the ball if the angle is held neutral will want to go towards the forehand side. This spin is easier to keep from veering off the side of the left table if you touch the left hand and side of the ball, and it is easier to touch the left hand side of the ball with your backhand. So the logic is to use the backhand because it controls the left side of the ball naturally. People who are good at touching the left side of the ball with their forehands also use their forehands to return such serves. Because it is easier to push a pendulum serve to with the forehand and a reverse pendulum serve with the backhand, the usual practice is to serve pendulum serves into the backhand and reverse pendulum serves into the forehand both with the strategy of attacking with the forehand, but the preference for a reverse pendulum server is to attack from the forehand side of the table and the preference for a pendulum server is to attack from the backhand side of the table with their forehands. There are other configurations but this is the general logic.

I know you agree on the ease, but where I am confused is when you say "wouldn't attacking the Reverse Pendulum with the FH fall into the same logic of serving a pendulum service + waiting for the opponent to push against the spin and then attacking it?" Not sure what you are asking here.

 

[lucas.campos92]

And I came across a question, for the 3rd ball attacks if you want to hit with your FH, it's better to do a Pendulum serve so the most common reply is for the opponent to go AGAINST the spin and change the spin so the ball with come more to your FH side.

A different way to think about it is that the pendulum serve from backhand if the racket is held neutral by the opponent has sidespin that wants to go back to the server. So when served into the backhand side of the table, unless the opponent makes massive adjustments, the returns will naturally come back to the backhand side of the table and popped as well. Going against the spin doesn't so much move the ball towards the forehand as it prevents the ball from going off the backhand side of the table - the serve hit the left side of the ball so you hit the same side (right for the receiver) so the spin doesn't veer off the backhand side. It is easier to hit the right side of the ball with the forehand of a right hander so this is why the forehand is commonly used to return such serves with pushes in the past. So when a pendulum serve is delivered into the backhand side of the table, what the server is trying to is limit the opportunities the returner has to play into the wide forehand and make sure the attempts to do so are more obvious and harder with the backhand. The server possibly also has a preference for attacking a certain kind of sidespin with his strokes based on his typical training. But it is not so much about preferring to attack with the forehand, you can prefer to attack with the forehand with any service, the issue is what the sidespin limits in terms of placements and what spins you prefer to attack behind. People who are good at using their backhands to touch the right side of the ball sometimes use their backhand to push such serves, but it is delicate and requires good spin reading and timing to avoid popping up the ball.


But when you receive a Reserve Pendulum (or whatever BH service), people recommend to receive it with the backhand. I know the the natural angle for pushing is more comfortable, but wouldn't attacking the Reverse Pendulum with the FH fall into the same logic of serving a pendulum service + waiting for the opponent to push against the spin and then attacking it? So why use BH in these situations?
Reverse sidespin, the server hit the right side of the ball so the ball if the angle is held neutral will want to go towards the forehand side. This spin is easier to keep from veering off the side of the left table if you touch the left hand and side of the ball, and it is easier to touch the left hand side of the ball with your backhand. So the logic is to use the backhand because it controls the left side of the ball naturally. People who are good at touching the left side of the ball with their forehands also use their forehands to return such serves. Because it is easier to push a pendulum serve to with the forehand and a reverse pendulum serve with the backhand, the usual practice is to serve pendulum serves into the backhand and reverse pendulum serves into the forehand both with the strategy of attacking with the forehand, but the preference for a reverse pendulum server is to attack from the forehand side of the table and the preference for a pendulum server is to attack from the backhand side of the table with their forehands. There are other configurations but this is the general logic.

I know you agree on the ease, but where I am confused is when you say "wouldn't attacking the Reverse Pendulum with the FH fall into the same logic of serving a pendulum service + waiting for the opponent to push against the spin and then attacking it?" Not sure what you are asking here.

I agree with your first two statements, general rule from what you said is pendulum attack from more of the left hand side and reverse pendulum more on the right side of the table, and also the preference that the serve has to which sidespin he likes to attack more, even seen some players (rarely, that serve reverse pendulum and still likes to attack with the FH, one example is this "Ma Jinbao" guy from the US Team)
What I was asking is that the RESULTANT side-spin of a reverse pendulum serve is the same as the combination of someone serve a Pendulum serve and the other guy receiving against the spin. These 2 combinations has all a resultant of a spin going to the Right of the table, but the placement is where it differents, the first case it will probably go more to the right side of the table and the latters more on the left side of the table.
So my question was, if a reverse pendulum is reverse to your BH side (which doesn't happen often) would it be just as benefitial as hitting a 3rd ball attack with your FH as if you had served a pendulum serve. Since both of them the ball will have right-side spin and you could use your FH to go WITH the spin and attack strongly the FH side of the opponent (with a hook-like FH stroke)
Idk if it makes sense now, or if this premise is wrong

 

[NextLevel]

I agree with your first two statements, general rule from what you said is pendulum attack from more of the left hand side and reverse pendulum more on the right side of the table, and also the preference that the serve has to which sidespin he likes to attack more, even seen some players (rarely, that serve reverse pendulum and still likes to attack with the FH, one example is this "Ma Jinbao" guy from the US Team)
What I was asking is that the RESULTANT side-spin of a reverse pendulum serve is the same as the combination of someone serve a Pendulum serve and the other guy receiving against the spin. These 2 combinations has all a resultant of a spin going to the Right of the table, but the placement is where it differents, the first case it will probably go more to the right side of the table and the latters more on the left side of the table.
So my question was, if a reverse pendulum is reverse to your BH side (which doesn't happen often) would it be just as benefitial as hitting a 3rd ball attack with your FH as if you had served a pendulum serve. Since both of them the ball will have right-side spin and you could use your FH to go WITH the spin and attack strongly the FH side of the opponent (with a hook-like FH stroke)
Idk if it makes sense now, or if this premise is wrong

Reverse pendulum and attacking with the forehand is more common than you realize, unless you mean reverse pendulum and like to pivot when the ball comes to the backhand, that is pretty rare if the serve is into the forehand, but also not that uncommon if the serve is into the backhand.

IF I serve pendulum (clockwise) and they return against the spin, the ball is spinning anti clockwise.
If I serve reverse pendulum (anti-clockwise), the ball is spinning anti clockwise, but it is on the other side of the table. What am I missing here? If I return it with the backhand against the spin, then it should come back clockwise but if I go with the spin, it will come back clockwise, but if I go with the spin, it will come back anti-clockwise. which is similar to serving a pendulum serve and getting a push back. That you can hit a variety of shots that work with anticlockwise spin and yes, it would be similar to serve pendulum and get forehand sidespin push against the spin back.

 

[longrange]

It's a little difficult to understand, but let me try.

And I came across a question, for the 3rd ball attacks if you want to hit with your FH, it's better to do a Pendulum serve so the most common reply is for the opponent to go AGAINST the spin and change the spin so the ball with come more to your FH side.

If you mean that it's better to receive a pendulum with FH, then it's correct. But if you serve into opponent's middle or not so deep/wide into BH that he can pivot, then he'll blast this ball along the line or inverse diagonal. Do you mean to play counter attack against this ball? I prefer avoiding this and serve pendulum into deep or wide BH.

If you mean short pendulum into FH, then it's easy to push short back to steal your third ball.

But when you receive a Reserve Pendulum (or whatever BH service), people recommend to receive it with the backhand. I know the the natural angle for pushing is more comfortable, but wouldn't attacking the Reverse Pendulum with the FH fall into the same logic of serving a pendulum service + waiting for the opponent to push against the spin and then attacking it? So why use BH in these situations?

Reverse pendulum is usually served into short FH, because otherwise you get chiquita into you. OTOH receiving RP with FH is awkward.