Spin theory

[Dr Evil]

It definitely helps to experiment with spin continuation, especially on short serve receive. It's a great way to get a more precise feel for how different serves are actually spinning. The spin axis can be quite different between backhand, hook and tomahawk serves, for example, even though they all have reverse-pendulum-type sidespin.

 

[blahness]

It definitely helps to experiment with spin continuation, especially on short serve receive. It's a great way to get a more precise feel for how different serves are actually spinning. The spin axis can be quite different between backhand, hook and tomahawk serves, for example, even though they all have reverse-pendulum-type sidespin.

I think one can be almost forced into spin continuation by the serve placement and spin type. For eg you're almost forced to do spin continuation if you want to do a FH short push against reverse pendulum, or a BH short push against FH pendulum due to the grip limitations (unless it's against underspin serves)

 

[pingpongpaddy]

Ok I'll bite.

You need to sink the ball into the sponge to generate an increasing normal force on the ball in order to engage it with high friction (similar to locking in gears) - after engaging it then the tangential force can spin the ball hard.

When going against the spin (topspin vs topspin), the problem comes when the ball already has an immense amount of spin on it and you're trying to forcefully brush it instead of allowing the rubber to do its job to reverse the spin. What this leads to is a very high amount of ball tangential speed relative to the racket (100 + 100 = 200) in your example, which happens before the ball is sinking into the sponge. Because there's not much normal force at this point, there is also not much friction capacity so it's easy for it to just slip off resulting in a bad contact. So for control, it's better to focus on a thicker contact to sink it into the sponge and let the inverted rubber invert the spin much like a tangential trampoline.

But however, if you're doing spin continuation and forcefully brushing (for eg with topspin against strong backspin), the tangential speed of the ball relative to the ball is low (105-100=5 for example), which reduces the frictional demands of the rubber at the beginning stages of the contact before the ball is sunk into the sponge. This allows you to brush hard and still maintain control of the ball.

The idea, of course is that if you're doing spin continuation with inverted rubbers you should be brushing hard to at least match the incoming ball spin, but if you're going against the spin it's better to let the rubber do its job of inverting the spin and focus more on controlling and carrying the ball to where it should be.

it sounds rather complicated.
With a tangential impact I don't expect the ball to sink into the sponge very much at all but with blocks and flat kills it occurs to some extent I suppose though with the harder sponges it won't be very much.
But I have never come across any experienced players who talk about adjusting their control of the ball by changing how much the ball sinks into the sponge. That's the kind of thing you read on internet forums along with European style vs chinese style. The most I have heard refers to players using thinner sponge because they like to 'feel the wood' But they don't have complicated theories about it. I am all for players playing flatter shots on occasion and not doing pure brush strokes just for the sake of it. indeed a typical drive shot is combination of force and brushing. and there are many blocks and push techniques and other examples of playing with feeling to absorb opponents power or spin but they skills which are acquired through. more of an intuitive process than wrestling with ideas like "continuation" Buzz words are no compensation for skill and experience derived through practice.

 

[blahness]

it sounds rather complicated.
With a tangential impact I don't expect the ball to sink into the sponge very much at all but with blocks and flat kills it occurs to some extent I suppose though with the harder sponges it won't be very much.
But I have never come across any experienced players who talk about adjusting their control of the ball by changing how much the ball sinks into the sponge. That's the kind of thing you read on internet forums along with European style vs chinese style. The most I have heard refers to players using thinner sponge because they like to 'feel the wood' But they don't have complicated theories about it. I am all for players playing flatter shots on occasion and not doing pure brush strokes just for the sake of it. indeed a typical drive shot is combination of force and brushing. and there are many blocks and push techniques and other examples of playing with feeling to absorb opponents power or spin but they skills which are acquired through. more of an intuitive process than wrestling with ideas like "continuation" Buzz words are no compensation for skill and experience derived through practice.

If you're too lazy to read or think why did you even participate in this thread? This thread is obviously not for you. Anyway you're now on my ignore list for constantly trying to derail threads to suit your narrow understanding of TT.

 

[pingpongpaddy]

one of the nice things about internet forums that they leave an accurate historical record of what has occurred good and bad by all parties. I aim happy to stand by the record of my contribution to the forum in the past and intend to continue to contribute in the same way in the future.

 

[zeio]

Bumping this up with an example from XTWC 2023.

On at least 2 occasions, Miwa tried to return WCQ's hook serve with a stroke known as 撇 in Chinese (probably named after 1 of the 8 Yongzi strokes), which I think is said to be first used by Waldner.

WCQ seemed to be aware of Tanaka's comment and served way more backspin now when using that serve.

Fail
https://youtu.be/BKHxXTEraWs?t=1151
Success
https://youtu.be/BKHxXTEraWs?t=2261