SpinSight users post your experience and reviews

[Tyce]

I wonder how easy the dot pattern is to reproduce with a sharpie on some cheap training balls...

Or even better, 3d print a "mold" you can use to spray the pattern onto the ball

 

[Haito]

I wonder how easy the dot pattern is to reproduce with a sharpie on some cheap training balls...

Or even better, 3d print a "mold" you can use to spray the pattern onto the ball

If someone sends me one of those balls, I will create said mold.

 

[NextLevel]

I wonder how easy the dot pattern is to reproduce with a sharpie on some cheap training balls...

Or even better, 3d print a "mold" you can use to spray the pattern onto the ball

As with all things like this, we tried to just do *something* and the basic something didn't work as planned. So while it is likely possible, it isn't trivially easy. Speed measurements came through (as those can be done on any ball) but spin was inconsistently measured and often wrong when measured with the sharpie ball. So probably replicating with the precision of a mold with be the best bet to safely work unless there are subtle details tied to the luminosity of the material used for the dots.

 

[pong99]

Have you used it before and what was your experience? How did this error rate factor in?

Haven't tried it yet. Still looking for my tripod. When I find it, I'll order some balls and give it a shot.

The ball discussion brings up the topic of whether it gets less accurate as the balls wear or maybe the balls will break before that happens.

I advocate taking this data for what it's worth. Have fun with it, just know what it can and cannot do. Worst case +-5% accuracy means a 10% wide error bar so factor that into your interpretation of results.

 

[dingyibvs]

Tried it with some clubmates last week! My typical FH loop against block comes in at ~130 rps, topped out in the low 140s, with the "power meter" thing typically in the 110s. I didn't specifically try to generate spin, so not sure where it'd land at. Interestingly as @NextLevel found out it didn't change too much with different equipment. With D05 + Harimoto ALC my shots do end a lot more shallow, but speed/spin was easier to generate. I had FZD ALC and Q968 with the same rubbers and they had similar speed/spin measurements.

 

[Tyce]

I love seeing this. Several people are already telling stories that equipment doesn't matter much in terms of spin generation and it makes so much sense. I would *love* to see people doing this for some epic lineups like Sriver/Rozena/Tenergy/Glayzer/Dignics.

 

[Haito]

I love seeing this. Several people are already telling stories that equipment doesn't matter much in terms of spin generation and it makes so much sense. I would *love* to see people doing this for some epic lineups like Sriver/Rozena/Tenergy/Glayzer/Dignics.

I think people are not talking enough about the "freshness" of the rubber. I am not sure if I am the only one, but I kill FH rubbers constantly. I have a friend who is my rubber barometer. If he tells me my spin is lacking time for new sheet. I always keep telling myself, its not rubber, its your technique, but then I change the rubber and then the loopage is childs play again.

I've met a fair bit of people using old rubbers, with pips showing up from sheer usage. I think not enough people are talking about the state of their rubbers in proportion to people talking about "which" rubber they use. I've swapped before between Battle 2 / K3 / C53 (I think I got like two sheets of that one) and now ZGR. As long as they are similar type of rubber, then after 1h with a robot running through all the strokes, I can play same as before. It might be because I am not the best player 🤷 That being said all the best players, that handed me my butt, they all had one thing in common. "I got this racket from my coach, I just hit the ball". I am not really sure wether I crossed into some zen region when I started following this philosophy or started to decline. I sure win a lot more (and I mean a lot more).

 

[NextLevel]

I love seeing this. Several people are already telling stories that equipment doesn't matter much in terms of spin generation and it makes so much sense. I would *love* to see people doing this for some epic lineups like Sriver/Rozena/Tenergy/Glayzer/Dignics.

I think matters will be about what those extra revs give you. Because there were extra revs on 09c and 03 vs 80 but what does that mean and how is that compensated for by 80s speed? but it wasn't like out of the world extra revs, maybe 5% and what does 5% mean in a TT match? The practical implications are likely significant but we will have to do more to find out what it means for each of us.

 

[suds79]

As with all things like this, we tried to just do *something* and the basic something didn't work as planned. So while it is likely possible, it isn't trivially easy. Speed measurements came through (as those can be done on any ball) but spin was inconsistently measured and often wrong when measured with the sharpie ball. So probably replicating with the precision of a mold with be the best bet to safely work unless there are subtle details tied to the luminosity of the material used for the dots.

When you say this, I'm assuming your test was essentially taking a while ball and with a black sharpie coloring similar circles all over it much like the official spinsight balls? And it wasn't successful?

Just curious as to a workaround. I haven't tested it but another person in this thread talked about the worry of stepping on these rather expensive balls.

As someone who runs our local club and think they'd find this interesting, balls accidentally being stepped on happens somewhat frequently.

Anyways, I was wondering if the sharpie make your own balls worked.

 

[NextLevel]

When you say this, I'm assuming your test was essentially taking a while ball and with a black sharpie coloring similar circles all over it much like the official spinsight balls? And it wasn't successful?

Pretty much. The original ball has variation in dot sizes and positioning for tracking and how it works with the Spinsight data processors is an open question. But just marking up a ball with dots is not going to work easily without either replicating the pattern on an existing ball precisely or understanding what drives the processing so you can build the right pattern.

Just curious as to a workaround. I haven't tested it but another person in this thread talked about the worry of stepping on these rather expensive balls.

As someone who runs our local club and think they'd find this interesting, balls accidentally being stepped on happens somewhat frequently.

Anyways, I was wondering if the sharpie make your own balls worked.

I bought 24 balls and I already feel the pain of losing 1 (not even breaking it, just not finding it physically) after the first practice. They cost over $3 per ball so it hurts. But you can be vigilant about taking care of balls, I was a bit overconfident in using 12 balls. I will probably limit practices in the future to just 6 or less.

The sharpie made the camera pick up something for spin, but the numbers were not accurate.

 

[IB66]

This is starting to get really interesting!!!

As more time passes, more data gathered it will get even more interesting.

People will have the ability to see how the performance of a rubber degrades over time in real time, rather than having to rely on what they ’see’ or how a playing partner experiences the incoming balls.

It already seems that there are differences in performance of rubbers, albeit smaller than imagined. However, a 5% difference is a significant difference, especially when the user is of a high level with excellent technique.

A comparison of different generation rubbers as Tyce suggested, is a must. If I had SpinSight I’d do it ASAP

Can any current user help on this?

 

[ToH]

It would be interesting to look at a used old rubber before and after a threatment in the No tuning airbox from Soulspin.

 

[Zezima]

I am not a big fan of dhs balls I wish there would be also with the nittaku premium 3 star balls aswell. Or just nittaku training balls so we can buy it for cheaper. Doing Multiball with 3 star balls is not exactly cheap.

 

[dingyibvs]

This is starting to get really interesting!!!

As more time passes, more data gathered it will get even more interesting.

People will have the ability to see how the performance of a rubber degrades over time in real time, rather than having to rely on what they ’see’ or how a playing partner experiences the incoming balls.

It already seems that there are differences in performance of rubbers, albeit smaller than imagined. However, a 5% difference is a significant difference, especially when the user is of a high level with excellent technique.

A comparison of different generation rubbers as Tyce suggested, is a must. If I had SpinSight I’d do it ASAP

Can any current user help on this?

I do wonder if the small differences actually matter a lot more than we think. I mean, the weakest loopers of our group, maybe a 12-1400 level player using a G1, had spin in the 110's, while the strongest with H3 or D05/D09c was ~130, so really just a 10-15% difference. We all know that technique matters much more, so perhaps it's not unreasonable that different equipment only accounts for low single digit percentage differences, at least when it comes to loop vs. blocks.

I can also see other variations that may affect the results. For one, it's possible that against higher energy incoming balls there might be a greater difference. That is, there might be a greater difference on the higher end. On the opposite end, what we perceive as higher speed/spin may actually be how easily speed/spin is generated. That is, there might be littler difference on the higher end but with some equipment it's just easier to achieve the higher end of speed and/or spin.

 

[ttarc]

Pretty much. The original ball has variation in dot sizes and positioning for tracking and how it works with the Spinsight data processors is an open question. But just marking up a ball with dots is not going to work easily without either replicating the pattern on an existing ball precisely or understanding what drives the processing so you can build the right pattern.

I've linked the patent application before

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/ttd-team-spin-challenge-with-world-champion.38450/post-553251

or

EP4121779B1 - Table tennis ball with marking enabling to measure the ball spin - Google Patents

It includes information about the dot distribution, dot sizes, number of dots, infrared varnish and/or specific color of the dots (just skimmed through the patent).

Maybe ask the Xiaoqiu project team that measured Xu Xin at 176.65 rps without special balls but a 3000 fps camera...

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[Zezima]

I do wonder if the small differences actually matter a lot more than we think. I mean, the weakest loopers of our group, maybe a 12-1400 level player using a G1, had spin in the 110's, while the strongest with H3 or D05/D09c was ~130, so really just a 10-15% difference. We all know that technique matters much more, so perhaps it's not unreasonable that different equipment only accounts for low single digit percentage differences, at least when it comes to loop vs. blocks.

I can also see other variations that may affect the results. For one, it's possible that against higher energy incoming balls there might be a greater difference. That is, there might be a greater difference on the higher end. On the opposite end, what we perceive as higher speed/spin may actually be how easily speed/spin is generated. That is, there might be littler difference on the higher end but with some equipment it's just easier to achieve the higher end of speed and/or spin.

I dont think rating cares about your quality of spin. Especially not the 10-15%.

Consider 2 players and tell me who is more likely to win:
Both around the same age (experience wise) ->
Player A: anticipates better -> gets into position (good footwork) -> pressures with that Topspin
Player B: anticipates worse and/or bad footwork (standing still) -> is forced to do an awkward or more passive shot back and doesn't really actively force his opponent into errors.

ofc there are more variables such as placement of your shots, how good you can block (active good placement blocks) etc. but in the grand scheme and thats my point is at a certain quality (and I consider 100+) the placement of your shots is more important than hitting 10% with more spin.

When I watched FZD he made his points mostly with placement and speed of the balls. Who cares about the spin on the ball if you can't even get to hit the ball?

So should we really care about those small benefits in spin?

 

[IB66]

I dont think rating cares about your quality of spin. Especially not the 10-15%.

Consider 2 players and tell me who is more likely to win:
Both around the same age (experience wise) ->
Player A: anticipates better -> gets into position (good footwork) -> pressures with that Topspin
Player B: anticipates worse and/or bad footwork (standing still) -> is forced to do an awkward or more passive shot back and doesn't really actively force his opponent into errors.

ofc there are more variables such as placement of your shots, how good you can block (active good placement blocks) etc. but in the grand scheme and thats my point is at a certain quality (and I consider 100+) the placement of your shots is more important than hitting 10% with more spin.

When I watched FZD he made his points mostly with placement and speed of the balls. Who cares about the spin on the ball if you can't even get to hit the ball?

So should we really care about those small benefits in spin?

Perhaps we shouldn’t care about those small benefits in spin, but you have a wider range of spin available to use. If you can vary the spin within those wider margins it is likely that your opponent has to make an additional range of adjustments to return the ball.
How much difference the adjustment is ?? how does 5% extra spin on a serve relate to a serve receive?? I’m not sure!!
When playing, you can’t say ‘I’m going to push the ball with 5% or 10% less spin’ you can make an estimation.
I just think that having a larger range of spin available is better than having less!!!

You mentioned FZD’s speed and placement of shots, the spin and speed sort of go together, the spin brings the ball onto the table, and kicks the ball forward. The ‘kick’ is usually more noticeable on slower shots but is still there on faster balls. What we don’t really see is the levels of spin the Pro’s can put on the ball, to do that you need to be on the receiving end!!

 

[NextLevel]

I do wonder if the small differences actually matter a lot more than we think. I mean, the weakest loopers of our group, maybe a 12-1400 level player using a G1, had spin in the 110's, while the strongest with H3 or D05/D09c was ~130, so really just a 10-15% difference. We all know that technique matters much more, so perhaps it's not unreasonable that different equipment only accounts for low single digit percentage differences, at least when it comes to loop vs. blocks.

I can also see other variations that may affect the results. For one, it's possible that against higher energy incoming balls there might be a greater difference. That is, there might be a greater difference on the higher end. On the opposite end, what we perceive as higher speed/spin may actually be how easily speed/spin is generated. That is, there might be littler difference on the higher end but with some equipment it's just easier to achieve the higher end of speed and/or spin.

Of course the small differences likely matter a lot, if you looked at their statistics at spinsight, you can see where they place you based on your average spin. And I don't think technique matters as much as you think it does, it might distinguish two players of equal athletic ability, but athletic ability to swing fast counts for quite a bit as well especially explosive strength. It has never surprised me that the players I struggle against the most are either the most athletic or the physically strongest, it just adds another dimension to their ball quality. And the best ones can use it to attack with more safety under a variety of conditions or to bring the ball back during a rally. You can't get good spin without good swing speed so it isn't a completely mutually exclusive proposition.

 

[NextLevel]

I dont think rating cares about your quality of spin. Especially not the 10-15%.

Consider 2 players and tell me who is more likely to win:
Both around the same age (experience wise) ->
Player A: anticipates better -> gets into position (good footwork) -> pressures with that Topspin
Player B: anticipates worse and/or bad footwork (standing still) -> is forced to do an awkward or more passive shot back and doesn't really actively force his opponent into errors.

ofc there are more variables such as placement of your shots, how good you can block (active good placement blocks) etc. but in the grand scheme and thats my point is at a certain quality (and I consider 100+) the placement of your shots is more important than hitting 10% with more spin.

When I watched FZD he made his points mostly with placement and speed of the balls. Who cares about the spin on the ball if you can't even get to hit the ball?

So should we really care about those small benefits in spin?

You make it sound like FZD doesn't have likely the highest spin ball in table tennis. The reason why he can stay so consistent while hitting so many shots is the amount of spin he puts on the ball on most shots. With the new balls, the reason why the top players remain top players isn't because their spin is unblockable, it is because their spin makes them extremely consistent, Timo showed this when he won the Korean Open in 2017 or so when they introduced the new ABS ball for the first time, in a major Open, he just was so consistent it was impossible to get through him. Of course you can try to play flat with Fan's style but don't underestimate his athletic reserve and the amount of rotation he is using to remain consistent. It isn't slow spinny rotation, but it is a lot of rotation.

 

[backspacer]

I think people are not talking enough about the "freshness" of the rubber. I am not sure if I am the only one, but I kill FH rubbers constantly. I have a friend who is my rubber barometer. If he tells me my spin is lacking time for new sheet. I always keep telling myself, its not rubber, its your technique, but then I change the rubber and then the loopage is childs play again.

I've met a fair bit of people using old rubbers, with pips showing up from sheer usage. I think not enough people are talking about the state of their rubbers in proportion to people talking about "which" rubber they use. I've swapped before between Battle 2 / K3 / C53 (I think I got like two sheets of that one) and now ZGR. As long as they are similar type of rubber, then after 1h with a robot running through all the strokes, I can play same as before. It might be because I am not the best player 🤷 That being said all the best players, that handed me my butt, they all had one thing in common. "I got this racket from my coach, I just hit the ball". I am not really sure wether I crossed into some zen region when I started following this philosophy or started to decline. I sure win a lot more (and I mean a lot more).

I play my rubbers for a year and recently someone I lost against at a tournament asked me after the match how old my rubbers were because the balls had an unusual arc or whatever lol