Stats of CNT players against non-CNT players 2017

[rainneverever]

One point I would like to make is that if you want to know how CNT coaches commented on CNT players and how CNT players commented on themselves, you'd better watch the interview in Chinese but not the news translated in English. There is so much wrong/biased information after translation.


Two simple questions:
(1) Why did Zhang Jike lose to Wang Hao 1:4 in 2010 World Cup with his wonderful techniques, mental strengths and the ability to outperform in big tournaments?
(2) Why did Zhang Jike lose to Timo Boll 1:3 in 2012 London Olympic Games with his wonderful techniques, mental strengths and the ability to outperform in big tournaments?

 

[ping fun]

I think there are three issues getting confused here. They are separate issues.

1) ZJK's technique and skill.
2) ZJK's injuries.
3) ZJK's attitude.

They are not the same.

1) ZJK's technique is top notch. If he is in form and healthy he is one of the top 2 CNT players which is actually why LGL has bent over backwards for him.

2) ZJK's injuries: are they real or not? I think some of them are real. But I think that his attitude does allow us to question some of the withdrawals from matches. Why have there been so many tournaments he entered and then withdrew in the middle with the injury.

There are so many sorties of athletes who played through injuries and persevered. And there are many who had many unities and did not play through them and missed games their team was hurt.

Here is a story: the New England Patriots (American Football team) had this quarterback who was a great talent and expected to be one of the best quarterbacks in the league. His name was Drew Bledsoe. The coach of the Patriots, Bill Belichick, decided he no longer wanted Bledsoe on the team. He was injured to often and this, Belichick felt, undermined his role as the leader of the offense.

So, against all the traditional opinions about how Bledsoe would be a hall of fame quarterback and one of the best ever, Belichick dropped Bledsoe in favor of a tough kid who had not proven himself yet and who nobody, except Belichick, thought was all that talented. That rookie quarterback was Tom Brady who will go down, for sure, as one of the best quarterbacks ever.

Brady played though injuries. Game in, game out. He is a tough player and the kind of quarterback you would want leading your team.

In TT things are different. But ZJK has not been the guy who plays through injuries, never quits and never lets people know how hurt he is.

Different people are different. My guess is that most of the injuries are real. But add them to ZJK's attitude and you have the makings of a problem.

But don't confuse his injuries and his attitude with his technique, skillz and abilities. The skillz, abilities and technique are there. But the health and the attitude may be a problem.


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yeah your reply was complete . remember the time b4 olympic . every one was criticizing zjk and were telling he doesnt deserve to be in olympic and XX should go instead but there is a famous sentences among TT lovers : ( liu guoliang knows better ) . yess he really knows better. XX went and lost to jun mizutani ( as i know chinese are so sensitive losing to a japanese ) in the other hand zjk did super and got to the single final while he hid his injury from liu guoliang to not replacing him with FZD in team events . Zjk played in team events with that situation and won over yungsik the player who was close to win ma long .this is why he became more popular than ever . Be cause of that fighting spirit

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Two simple questions:
(1) Why did Zhang Jike lose to Wang Hao 1:4 in 2010 World Cup with his wonderful techniques, mental strengths and the ability to outperform in big tournaments?
(2) Why did Zhang Jike lose to Timo Boll 1:3 in 2012 London Olympic Games with his wonderful techniques, mental strengths and the ability to outperform in big tournaments?

In 2010 I personally don't think ZJK was complete. I think he was still working on things and on the rise. I am not really sure ZJK was fully there until right around that 2011 WTTC where all of a sudden his level jumped. I could be wrong about that. Perhaps he was ready 3 months earlier. But it didn't look like it to me.

ZJK vs TB in Olympic Team Event:

ZJK doesn't look so great. Perhaps he won the singles and did a little partying and came out and did not play so well. Perhaps he knew his teammates would carry the weight if he underperformed. Perhaps he underestimated Timo. Sometimes when you slack off it is hard to turn it on when the match is on the line.

But I wonder what would have happened if someone else was struggling and having a bad day and it was on ZJK's shoulders to win that match or risk losing the team event for China. Would it have been different? We will never know.

Bottom line, he won the 2011, 2013 WTTC Singles events. He won the 2012 Olympic Gold in Singles. It often happens that there is a little bit of a let down after winning something so big.

I give Ma Long credit for playing his heart out in every event always. ZJK was never like that. He always had ups and downs. But his ups happened to occur in the 2011 WTTC singles ,2012 Olympic singles, 2013 WTTC singles and 2014 World Cup. [emoji2] And when he was off, to me it looked like he didn't really care and wasn't giving his all. I could be wrong but that is what it seems like to me.

And since his World Cup win against Ma Long it seems like he is not so interested during international play. But in the 2015 and 2016 China trials for WTTC ZJK also did place 1st. And that may be the hardest tournament there is.




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[TTFrenzy]

One point I would like to make is that if you want to know how CNT coaches commented on CNT players and how CNT players commented on themselves, you'd better watch the interview in Chinese but not the news translated in English. There is so much wrong/biased information after translation.


Two simple questions:
(1) Why did Zhang Jike lose to Wang Hao 1:4 in 2010 World Cup with his wonderful techniques, mental strengths and the ability to outperform in big tournaments?
(2) Why did Zhang Jike lose to Timo Boll 1:3 in 2012 London Olympic Games with his wonderful techniques, mental strengths and the ability to outperform in big tournaments?

Translations may not be 100 % accurate but we get the point. That's the purpose of translation. You talk about biased information yet in all of your posts you seem to provide only specific type of information and questions. Carl and I at least tried to "examine" the subject from every angle without being biased or categorizing any player as worse or better in terms of technique or mentality like you did

I dont think there is any point of continuing this discussion because you are answering questions with questions and we analyzed many times in here why ZJK lost or ML lost .

So if you want to really go at this type of conversation

1. Why did ML lost to koki niwa

2. Why did wang hao lost 4 times to ZJK

3. Why did wlq and ma lin lost several times to below top 50 rated players

4.Why did ML lost to lee sang su, samsonov and boll

5. Why did ZJK lost to lundqvist taku takakiwa and chen chien an

6. Why did ML lost to wang hao

7. Why did XX lost to mizutani

Dont get too excited with statistics, XX was also undefeated in team events just like ma long but he lost the most crucial match of the year and that matters and hurts a lot more than losing in a pro tour.

 

[TTFrenzy]

One point I would like to make is that if you want to know how CNT coaches commented on CNT players and how CNT players commented on themselves, you'd better watch the interview in Chinese but not the news translated in English. There is so much wrong/biased information after translation.


Two simple questions:
(1) Why did Zhang Jike lose to Wang Hao 1:4 in 2010 World Cup with his wonderful techniques, mental strengths and the ability to outperform in big tournaments?
(2) Why did Zhang Jike lose to Timo Boll 1:3 in 2012 London Olympic Games with his wonderful techniques, mental strengths and the ability to outperform in big tournaments?

Also many chinese people in this forum and in mytt are fluent in english and translated chinese interviews manytimes and this has been validated by other chinese members. One can also verify in google translator without so much accuracy of course, but when chinese members validate tranlsaltions made by other chinese , why care in the first place if its 100 % or not.

 

[rainneverever]

Please provide the links of interviews/news about this part, especially Ma Lin.

LGL has stated several times that characters like ML WLQ WH were highly affected and sad when the coaches/fans addressed their mistakes/results or scholded them , others like ma lin or ZJK were pissed off and they wanted to prove them wrong

 

[TTFrenzy]

There are several other videos in jagged translates youtube channel with LGL speaking , interviews and also matches in 2013 trials for WTTC. Do a bit of searching and you will find out many comments like that

Now im waiting for the matches and explanation about ZJK's inferior technique and mentality

 

[TTFrenzy]

Obviously I wont provide time in video and comment for every player, I just remember comments here and there that impressed me . But since you are so meticulous about such things, I will need you to validate your points also. So far all you do is ask .

 

[ping fun]

Obviously I wont provide time in video and comment for every player, I just remember comments here and there that impressed me . But since you are so meticulous about such things, I will need you to validate your points also. So far all you do is ask .

I'm sure its the best conclusion for this thread . continuing this discussion after this point is nonsense . The End

 

[rainneverever]

In Ma Lin's session in the video you provided (6'41''-16'38''), Liu Guoliang said nothing about “others like ma lin or ZJK were pissed off and they wanted to prove them wrong”. To my knowledge, Liu Guoliang and Wu Jingping (Ma Lin's coach) never commented Ma Lin like that or compared the personality between Ma Lin and Zhang Jike. If you mean that some players like Ma Lin and Zhang Jike wanted to prove themselves against criticisms, I would say so did Wang Liqin, Ma Long and Wang Hao, because none of them gave up after losses in crucial matches and surrounded by doubts and criticisms.
In the interview above, not chosen to attend 2000 Sydney Olympic Games, Ma Lin told his mother that he did not want to play any more; in an interview after 2014 World Cup, Ma Long said he thought about retirement. But neither Ma Lin nor Ma Long quitted and they finally proved themselves as Olympic champions in singles.

Obviously I wont provide time in video and comment for every player, I just remember comments here and there that impressed me . But since you are so meticulous about such things, I will need you to validate your points also. So far all you do is ask .

 

[rainneverever]

It is interesting that when I asked what are the explanations to Zhang Jike's losses in the big tournaments in his good days (no not-caring-about-small-tournaments or injury issues), people asked me why Ma Long, Xu Xin, Wang Hao and so on lost to other opponents. Do Ma Long's three losses to Wang Hao in WTTCs, Ma Long's loss to Timo Boll in 2010 and Xu Xin's loss to Jun Mizutani in 2016 have anything to do with Zhang Jike? And I said Ma Long and Xu Xin were not tough enough technically and/or tactically and/or mentally at those moments. No one disagreed. When I applied the same theory to Zhang Jike at those moments, people were mad at me because they thought I regarded Zhang Jike as inferior which I did not.

 

[lawrence.monsieurr]

So, to summarize what has been said already:

1) Nobody thinks that ZJK is inferior, his attitude is just really bad (sometimes) and his 'injuries' tend to raise questions.
2) Everybody agrees that ML is probably the best player of the last few years, maybe even decade. Especially if you look at his statistics.

One point about ZJK's injuries though: Why would he fake an injury? What's the point? He's one of the most celebrated Chinese players ever. He doesn't need to prove anything. The fact he still wants to continue, even though his record nowadays is shit and he loses to players far below his level, together with the injuries, speaks much about ZJK's heart,and whether he cares about winning or losing. You simply wouldn't continue playing with those injuries if you didn't care.

LGL lets ZJK try his hardest, his best time and time again. He did great in Rio, as we all know. Sadly, he got injured... Again. But here comes the question: Despite ZJK's injuries, despite his 'looking bored', losing matches he shouldn't lose and what not; why hasn't LGL dropped him from the CNT?

Is it because he believes ZJK can come back? Is it because LGL thinks there is no one to replace ZJK? Is it because ZJK can actually win another WTTC or World Cup? We don't know. We know a fraction of all the information available, that is shared to us kindly, by Youtubers and other Chinese native speakers who can translate these articles/videos in English.

Therefore, I don't think it is very wise to jump too quickly to conclusions. Is ZJK's time over? Maybe. Can he win a WTTC? Maybe, if LGL sends him there, everything is possible. ZJK has proven that time and time again. Are his injuries really that bad? Maybe. Why is he shooting publicities, playing basketball and what not, and can't perform in the stadium, as he is then "suddenly" injured? We don't know.

Only time will tell if ZJK's time has run out, and if it was wise of him to continue. I for one, still believe that ZJK can return. To name a reason, only to really challenge ML. Who's gonna steal ML thunder in the WTTC and the coming year or two? FZD? XX? Not really, though. And secondly, I just want to see the old ZJK back, the ZJK who could produce magic at key moments in a WTTC or Olympics. If ZJK's time really is up, then yeah, that's just really sad.

 

[TTFrenzy]

In Ma Lin's session in the video you provided (6'41''-16'38''), Liu Guoliang said nothing about “others like ma lin or ZJK were pissed off and they wanted to prove them wrong”. To my knowledge, Liu Guoliang and Wu Jingping (Ma Lin's coach) never commented Ma Lin like that or compared the personality between Ma Lin and Zhang Jike. If you mean that some players like Ma Lin and Zhang Jike wanted to prove themselves against criticisms, I would say so did Wang Liqin, Ma Long and Wang Hao, because none of them gave up after losses in crucial matches and surrounded by doubts and criticisms.
In the interview above, not chosen to attend 2000 Sydney Olympic Games, Ma Lin told his mother that he did not want to play any more; in an interview after 2014 World Cup, Ma Long said he thought about retirement. But neither Ma Lin nor Ma Long quitted and they finally proved themselves as Olympic champions in singles.

once again, I said that these are comments here and there and the videos are too many to remember exact time.

You did talk about ZJK's inferiority in mentality and technique, me carl and pingfun didnt degrade anyone in the CNT. No one is mad at you but , at least for me , sometimes it is a bit annoying when people present one sided facts and not the whole story and the basic point behind the story. And the story is WH ML XX and ZJK are all undeniably great players and the pinacle of chinese modern TT team.

They will all go down as legends..XX also, even though he (probably) wont clinch a world title (champs or olympics i mean). There I said it and Im ready to eat my tongue if he proves me wrong in the future, in fact I look forward to it !

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I think part of the problem with this discussion is that it is going around in circles. In part this is the result of someone who is writing in English where English is not your first language so some things are misunderstood or misinterpreted. I do think you are doing well for someone where English is clearly not your first language. But there is too much pointless arguing.

It is interesting that when I asked what are the explanations to Zhang Jike's losses in the big tournaments in his good days (no not-caring-about-small-tournaments or injury issues), people asked me why Ma Long, Xu Xin, Wang Hao and so on lost to other opponents.

And where does this comment come from. I see a comment directly answering your questions below. Where did I talk about other people losing? Didn't I give what I felt was an answer to your questions?

In 2010 I personally don't think ZJK was complete. I think he was still working on things and on the rise. I am not really sure ZJK was fully there until right around that 2011 WTTC where all of a sudden his level jumped. I could be wrong about that. Perhaps he was ready 3 months earlier. But it didn't look like it to me.

ZJK vs TB in Olympic Team Event:

ZJK doesn't look so great. Perhaps he won the singles and did a little partying and came out and did not play so well. Perhaps he knew his teammates would carry the weight if he underperformed. Perhaps he underestimated Timo. Sometimes when you slack off it is hard to turn it on when the match is on the line.

But I wonder what would have happened if someone else was struggling and having a bad day and it was on ZJK's shoulders to win that match or risk losing the team event for China. Would it have been different? We will never know.

Bottom line, he won the 2011, 2013 WTTC Singles events. He won the 2012 Olympic Gold in Singles. It often happens that there is a little bit of a let down after winning something so big.

I give Ma Long credit for playing his heart out in every event always. ZJK was never like that. He always had ups and downs. But his ups happened to occur in the 2011 WTTC singles ,2012 Olympic singles, 2013 WTTC singles and 2014 World Cup. [emoji2] And when he was off, to me it looked like he didn't really care and wasn't giving his all. I could be wrong but that is what it seems like to me.

And since his World Cup win against Ma Long it seems like he is not so interested during international play. But in the 2015 and 2016 China trials for WTTC ZJK also did place 1st. And that may be the hardest tournament there is.


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That is an answer to your questions about ZJK losing to Wang Hao in the 2010 World Cup and the about his losing to Timo Bill in the 2012 Olympic team event.

I think TTFrenzy probably read my post and didn't feel he needed to go over the same info.

But, honestly, I don't see what all the arguing is about. You are misinterpreting and misunderstanding things and turning them into pointless arguments.


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[TTFrenzy]

One last thing, arguing who is better or worse is pointless among us fans but I guess sometimes we get sentimental and related to the players we like most and many times empathize. The only people that such discussions matter to them are journalists who actually make a profit out of "heated" debates. So "don't believe the hype" as popular hiphop group once said !

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

The only part of the discussion that I feel was worth taking issue with was the idea that ZJK's technique and strategy was somehow not good enough.

There may be many flaws with ZJK. But I don't think table tennis technique and strategy are ones that are actually problems.


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[TTFrenzy]

The only part of the discussion that I feel was worth taking issue with was the idea that ZJK's technique and strategy was somehow not good enough.

There may be many flaws with ZJK. But I don't think table tennis technique and strategy are ones that are actually problems.


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Speaking of technique did you see this Carl?

At first, I didnt see either the ball, or the hand moving. I dont know if its anything weird with the framerate of the video but damn that BH was fast !

p.s. I thought I could embed youtube video with the exact time on it but I still forget I cannot do it . Im talking about th BH kill @ 4:17

 

[lawrence.monsieurr]

I agree Carl with you.

There is definitely some 'lost in translation' thing going on here. Although English is not my native language (That would be Dutch), I am very fluent and understanding in it, as I have been studying the language for many years now. There seems to be a disconnect between rainneverever and you. You two are both trying to make a point, and trying to understand what the other is saying, but aren't simply meeting in the middle. Is it the 'lost in translation' part? Is it because you feel like he doesn't want to understand you? Or because you simply have different opinions? Maybe all three of them.

Unlike other threads, this discussion has been fairly interesting and mature. Let's keep it that way. I don't think there is any point in continuing trying to convince the other. I can see where raineverever is coming from, I can also see where you're coming from. You both have some valid points, and for the most part, structured opinions, which do make sense.

 

[rainneverever]

Maybe my English is too poor to understand your arguments and/or too poor to be understood. If that is the case, I apologize. I said "his techniques/tactics are not good enough to secure an easy win" and TTFrenzy interpreted as "You did talk about ZJK's inferiority in mentality and technique, me carl and pingfun didnt degrade anyone in the CNT". I did not mean what TTFrenzy interpreted. Let me try again: "his techniques/tactics are not effective enough to secure an easy win". Is it any better?

As I said, if someone mentioned "for many times, Liu Guoliang said blablabla" and I pointed out there is NO such comment AT ALL, please provide me a reference and I will admit my ignorance and apologize.

Carl, I saw your analyses on the two matches in 2010 and 2012, but TTFrenzy did not indicate whether he agreed with you or not and he asked me to analyze other players' matches which I did not see a connection. Carl posted the 2012 London game, in which Zhang Jike's best known BH games were still great (we can count how many points he gained from BH flips and topspin if necessary). Besies, he ran; he also won points with FH; he tried and did save some set points; but he just did not beat Timo Boll. If you think this Zhang Jike was complete, perhaps Timo Boll "doping" is the most satisfactory explanation.

 

[bricephan]

I think it safe to say Zhang Jike dominated Wang Hao during 2011-2013. Based on ITTF H2H records, before 2011 Wang Hao won 4 out of 5 times against Zhang Jike, including 2010 World Cup. Since 2011, Zhang Jike won all 8 times when he met Wang Hao, which included finals of 4 "big" tournaments: 2 WTTC (2011 4-2; 2013 4-2), 1 Wold Cup (2011 4-2) and 1 Olympic Games (2012 4-1). They never met internationally after 2013.
Has Zhang Jike ever dominated all other players? Simply check out his H2H stats against Ma Long (6 vs 13 during the whole career, 2 vs 4 during 2011-2013) and Xu Xin (4 vs 5 during the whole career, 3 vs 2 during 2011-2013) and the answer will NOT be yes.
Let's consider the duration of being ranked #1 in ITTF world rankings.

	# of total months	# of consecutive months
Record	56 (Wang Liqin)	27 (Wang Hao, 2007/10-2009/12)
Ma Long	55	25 (2015/3-2017/3)
Xu Xin	16	12 (2014/3-2015/2)
Zhang Jike	7	7(2012/6-2012/12)

<tbody>
</tbody>

If we take a look at the ITTF World Tour Singles events, Zhang Jike has won 6 titles (1 in 2010, 1 in 2011, 2 in 2012, 1 in 2013 and 1 in 2016), fewer than those of Fan Zhendong (2 in 2013, 2 in 2014, 2 in 2015 and 2 in 2016). Xu Xin has won 11 World Tour titles and 2 Grand Finals (2012, 2013), while Ma Long 23 World Tour titles and 5 Grand Finals (2008, 2009, 2011, 2015, 2016).
What do you think about Zhang Jike's dominance?

It is funny that the guy who came up with all statistics data, critical analyses for the win/loss based on opponents, timing, situation, etc., is interpreted as "talking crap", "look unreliable" by bunch of "facts" based on individual's opinions and theories.

1. He plays close to the table then most of chinese
2. BH banana flip is really exceptional
3. Great serve receive
4. Great BH topspin
5. He use his head during game a lot - not just power.

(1,2,4) is about player's style, how could it be a factor to indicate "really talented player"? Not only Sali but somebody else also uses "play close to the table" as a dominant factor. In last Kuwait Open Fang Bo and many another occasions ML have proved that long, fast serve can make trouble to (close table + backhand flick) style. All goes down to who is having a better day, assuming that they both at (approx.) same level.
(5) That doesn't help to explain bunch of losses, and also doesn't support to "sleeping play" theory either.

Also, when talking about technique you cant speak at such a generic level because you are actually talking crap. You must specify, which part of his technique and why is inferior thatn let's say Xu xiN or FZD or ma long or anyone.

Its a fact that ML does not have a good BH close to the table compared to ZJK or FZD or LJK. This is a fact. Its a fact that close to table playy ZJK and FZD are the best especially in countertoppspin rallies. Its a fact tha ML is the best in FH FH rallies mid distance

Oh well, two paragraphs say it all.
It seems that the term "fact" have different standard, not relying on statistics data but theories on TTD, or providing some "non-relevant" video as reference and excuse that it may not be right. It does remind me about "Trump's wiretape theory" happened recently though LOL

Bottom line, there has been a bunch of different topics on matter of ZJK, ZJK vs. ML, CNT based on theory. Could we just let this topic become the first one based on statistic number? It may sound too "biased" for TTD community, but it is good to have one thread interpreting matters based on statistic fact, I think.