Stats of CNT players against non-CNT players 2017

[ping fun]

No, I didnt misinterpret it. Not that dominant means you are making a comparison obviously and your counter evidence/data was malong results XX results and fzd results.

Fine by that, but when I ask you about other results of ma long against boll and zhang jike against boll and I present to you a way that statistics can be misleading into a situation and one can easily be fooled by statistics if he does not take other factors into consideration, then you started saying that these results are not related. Why ? Are you kidding me or do you just think that statistics is all that matters ?

XX had a great record against zhang jike before 2013, watch the semifinal again and we can talk about dominance all day.

If numbers is the ONLY case and the ONLY criteria then ma long is no1 of all time in pro tours

If team events are the ONLY criteria to judge a player then ma long again is no1 of all time

If world champs and olympic world cup medals is the ONLY criteria then zhang jike is still no 1 in terms of results, success ratio and dominating performances .

If trials are the ONLY criteria then again zhang is no1

But guess what, when you are coach/player in the best NT of the world its not all about numbers

If it was that way, then every final would be ML vs XX from 2010 and after since their results are the most consistent and ML vs XX was the most likely final in every pro tour

You're choosing every word wisely ... i like it you're talking with logic to be honest ( in this threadtill now)

 

[rainneverever]

FYI, Zhang Jike once commented on his loss to Dimitrij Ovtcharov in 2014 WTTC team events. "I was freaking out after that loss. During the match, I had no means to get around and my techniques could not beat him. I was helpless and I felt I did not have enough technical and mental strengths." Zhang Jike said this is the only match he lost BOTH technically AND mentally; for other matches, he lost because he was lack of motivation and devotion. "When I kept losing in closed training session and trials, I was starting to worry. But usually I don't tend to doubt myself and I cheer myself up when facing difficulties"

From Table Tennis World (2016/11), the only pro-TT magazine in China
http://pingpangshijie.1she.com/9024/237432.html

Original paragragh, please use Google translator or ask other native speakers in the forum.
张继科觉得2014年世乒赛团体赛输给奥恰 洛夫，是真输到了底线. "那场球输完我很害怕, 在场上我是真没办法, 技术上都打不过对方了, 很无助, 觉得技术和内心的力量都不够." 输在技术和引以为傲的强心脏上, 张继科说只有那一场球是这样, 其他比赛都是输在了自己的调动和投 入上. "到封闭训练热身赛输球, 其实我有点着急了,但我这人做得比较 好的一点是, 一般不会主动去怀疑自己, 遇到困难时我通常都会鼓励自己. "

 

[TTFrenzy]

Carl said in #20: "I think ZJK is a self absorbed egotistical guy who doesn't care about the team events and played badly because he didn't care. There are many matches ZJK lost where it looks like he just didn't have his head or his heart in the match. "

I know the interview "Zhang Jike One on One" you mentioned. Do you agree that team events are important ones for him?
There are interviews/news that Zhang Jike even made promise to Liu Guoliang before Rio 2016 that he would lose no more match in team events.

Yes, what carl said COULD be the case, zhang jike before 2014 didnt play like he did in singles. He needed a slap from ovtcharov to realize he is not the center of attention nor an unbeatable guy.

In mytt forum a chinese guy translated a LGL interview where he said that before every big tournament in the close CNT training session the players criticize each other about their mistakes and ZJK admitted he finds it difficult to adjust in best of 3 and getting his engine working from point no1 unlike ma long who always starts furious.

Personally I dont believe in dominant or not dominant players. I thorougly explained why ZJK got his grand slam first and why I speculate ML was a late bloomer. Of course no one knows better than ML ZJK themselves and their coaches.

I believe in characteristics and attributes of players both mentally and technique wise. ZJK is arrogant , extremely confident and he likes challenges to perform his best. Ma long is a great problem solver, always tries to finds out solutions against the opponent and has a very meticulous approach to the game.

Both attributes had positive and negative outcomes in their careers, ML was just thinking /worrying too much in some games thats why he lost important matches when he was not expected to lose & ZJK did won unexpectedly some titles but had unexpected losses against lower rated opponents

Its not a coincidence that ZJK has better results in world competitions throughout, especially in singles but poor loses and performances in pro tours and MA long is the other way around.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Rainneverever's point is simple - there is no need to make special excuses for Zhang Jike. He doesn't always underperform as much as people think and continuing to make it seem like Zhang Jike at his best is the only Zhang Jike that is the real Zhang Jike is simply not how it works.

IT's okay to disagree with this, but doing so in the manner above is just not right.

I would say this is a great explanation of what rainman is saying and if it is accurate, I have no argument or disagreement with the statement. It came across as something else to me. But I can see that may have been me misreading his intentions because I felt he was arguing with me at the beginning of the discussion. Interesting how our minds can affect our ability to discern. [emoji2]

I personally don't think statements about how ZJK was playing without interest and didn't care to try, or ZJK didn't fully show up to the tournament are excuses. I personally think they are an example of what a bad attitude he can have, and I think it is worse than him trying and just not being in good form in some tournaments.

Personally, I don't know and I don't care. But there is a Jekyll and Hyde aspect to ZJK and IT IS NOT an excuse for when he underperforms. It is something that points to his bad attitude and poor sportsmanship.

To me it looks like he is acting like it is beneath him to play certain players and try. And this attitude is even there in some of the early round matches in the 2011 and 2013 WTTCs that he won.

But then there are times when it looks like he simply quits in the middle of the match. I remember a match vs Yan An where he was being beaten and he just quit. He called the medical doctor. He did have a groin injury. But it didn't really seem to be much of a factor. And I always felt he quit because he was losing and the injury was just his way out.

And there is the real possibility that the act that he is disinterested and not trying is a defense mechanism he uses when he does not feel he is up to snuff and able to play how he wants to. And so he pretends not to try because he does not want to try and fail.

So, yeah ZJK, Jekyll and Hyde, is not an excuse in my mind. It is an indication of a problem.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[rainneverever]

Another note, the reason that I quoted Zhang Jike's comments on his loss to Dimitrij Ovtcharov and others, is not to make people agree that these are the real explanations. I want to provide a perspective from himself. Personally I do not think he lost other matches only due to the motivation/devotion issues. But people certainly can take his words.

Ma Long never thought he had a problem with self-confidence or mental strengths and he did not attribute his losses to mental issues. (see the Stiga Table Tennis Realm interview after 2016 Rio below). Again personally I do not think that is the case. But people certainly can take his words.
http://m.s.sohu.com/v3336121.shtml?channeled=1211010100&aid=3813

 

[TTFrenzy]

Another note, the reason that I quoted Zhang Jike's comments on his loss to Dimitrij Ovtcharov and others, is not to make people agree that these are the real explanations. I want to provide a perspective from himself. Personally I do not think he lost other matches only due to the motivation/devotion issues. But people certainly can take his words.

Ma Long never thought he had a problem with self-confidence or mental strengths and he did not attribute his losses to mental issues. (see the Stiga Table Tennis Kingdom interview after 2016 Rio below). Again personally I do not think that is the case. But people certainly can take his words.
http://m.s.sohu.com/v3336121.shtml?channeled=1211010100&aid=3813

check " ma long reportage subs" on youtube. If being afraid of the opponent to catch up or caring too much about winning and performing is not a "mental issue" then what is it ? These are the words he used himself and his coach.

If the dissapointing body language he had after missing a simple topspin against a long push from wang hao in 2013 then what is mental issue?

 

[yoass]

While I have nothing against round things, generally, I don't see much of value in the last few iterations of this particular thread. Must be me, sorry.

 

[bricephan]

Last , if you dont understand WHY close to the table play is SUPERIOR (no one used the world talented you come up with your own things and accusations. we use the word techique) and more effective (fast long serves of FANG BO really? did you even count how many they are compared to all of the points, gimme a ratio since you like statistics so much) then Im done talking to you

Keep misreading and jump quickly to the conclusion is also a part of potential delusion/new theory. Dun get me wrong, im not talking about anybody in particular. That is just what I learn in science as I am a scientist myself

Sali in post #31 "I do not like ZJK attitude but he is really talented player, why:
1. He plays close to the table then most of chinese
2. BH banana flip is really exceptional
3. Great serve receive
4. Great BH topspin
5. He use his head during game a lot - not just power."

Playing style works effectively against some particular other style, for example, ZJK on WH. Nothing is SUPERIOR or most dominant, 'coz if so, why ML doesn't have that SUPERIOR techniques/tactics but still dominate.

"Fact" can be derived by different standards. No need to continue argue further. This topic is entitled "Stats of CNT...."

 

[TTFrenzy]

Keep misreading and jump quickly to the conclusion is also a part of potential delusion/new theory. Dun get me wrong, im not talking about anybody in particular. That is just what I learn in science as I am a scientist myself

Sali in post #31 "I do not like ZJK attitude but he is really talented player, why:
1. He plays close to the table then most of chinese
2. BH banana flip is really exceptional
3. Great serve receive
4. Great BH topspin
5. He use his head during game a lot - not just power."

Playing style works effectively against some particular other style, for example, ZJK on WH. Nothing is SUPERIOR or most dominant, 'coz if so, why ML doesn't have that SUPERIOR techniques/tactics but still dominate.

"Fact" can be derived by different standards. No need to continue argue further. This topic is entitled "Stats of CNT...."

Exactly. It's what you did in the first place. And you were talking/refering to me it was quite obvious from your post "Its funny how the guy presents stats and blah blah"

Here there you go

"It is funny that the guy who came up with all statistics data, critical analyses for the win/loss based on opponents, timing, situation, etc., is interpreted as "talking crap", "look unreliable" by bunch of "facts" based on individual's opinions and theories.

Damn I must be misreading & jumping to conclusions!

 

[TTFrenzy]

While I have nothing against round things, generally, I don't see much of value in the last few iterations of this particular thread. Must be me, sorry.

Its the perks of being in a forum full of experts. Who needs skills when you can prove yourself in the internet

 

[RidTheKid]

Eh what..? Ok I'll spell it out since you seem to have a hard time getting it. ML's weakness was BH so he put extra time into making it world class.

And no. No rubber change is alone gonna be a game changer, you still have to put in the hours to get the results. Otherwise You could be good as well.

He's a chinese DHS sponsored athlete. You don't bite the hand that feeds you.

So you think he didn't practice his backhand before then? Really?

I take him at his word that making his backhand rubber more like his forehand rubber did wonders for him.

 

[rainneverever]

Ma Long used DHS blade and FH rubber before trying on DHS BH rubber. The changing of BH rubber has nothing to do with the sponsorship. It IS a big deal, said by himself/Liu Guoliang/Li Xiaodong/Wu Jingping and so on.
Seeing Ma Long's improved BH performance in 2015, other CNT players also tried to change to DHS BH rubber including Fan Zhendong, Yan An, Shang Kun and Xu Chenhao. But the rubber did not work well with Fan Zhendong and he switched back to Tenergy 05 in 2016 (check out his BH rubber in 2015 Pro Tour Grand finals and 2016 WTTC team events).

Eh what..? Ok I'll spell it out since you seem to have a hard time getting it. ML's weakness was BH so he put extra time into making it world class.
And no. No rubber change is alone gonna be a game changer, you still have to put in the hours to get the results. Otherwise You could be good as well.
He's a chinese DHS sponsored athlete. You don't bite the hand that feeds you.

 

[TTFrenzy]

ML is DHS' premium poster boy and would never say anything negative about them. Having said that, his BH improvement the last few years might be related to rubber change but more likely to extensive and focused BH practice.

Regarding ZJK - he's the biggest talent the last 10 years. When he's motivated and more or less injury free he's practically unstoppable. His playing style alone isn't enough to guarantee success, his head needs to be part of it. ML on the other hand is the best player ever. His consistency and finding ways to win is unparallelled. His playing style is most times enough to secure a win, but when he really puts his heart into it he really shines.

In a video where ma long catches and releases a heavy ball to strengthen his wrist, the coaches/trainer say that he has hands of a pianist very delicate hands, unlike FZD and ZJK who have stronger and thicker wrists with thicker/shorter fingers also which is good for explosiveness in BH. The training they do to improve in certain aspects is insane

 

[NextLevel]

Eh what..? Ok I'll spell it out since you seem to have a hard time getting it. ML's weakness was BH so he put extra time into making it world class.

And no. No rubber change is alone gonna be a game changer, you still have to put in the hours to get the results. Otherwise You could be good as well.

He's a chinese DHS sponsored athlete. You don't bite the hand that feeds you.

And you think that before that, he didn't know his weakness was his backhand and he was drinking lemonade in the shade?

His backhand was a good backhand. He had short stroke issues so he needed to make it better for close to the table rallying (Timo Boll still has similar issues). I initially put most of the focus on the change on the fact that he was adapting to the plastic ball. But sometimes, changing equipment can enable you to get a feel for something you couldn't do before. So I trust him when he says that Chinese rubber made HIM feel better about his backhand and made HIM feel more comfortable with whatever changes he was working on. I mean, it's no accident that after Mizutani won a tournament, he revealed he had switched to T80 on his forehand. Yes, those help the sponsors, but the players will not reveal it if they don't think it helped them too.

 

[RidTheKid]

It's a given that H3 on BH made him feel more comfortable but he still needed time to adjust to the different characteristics. Why are we even discussing things that are 100% implied.

And you think that before that, he didn't know his weakness was his backhand and he was drinking lemonade in the shade?

His backhand was a good backhand. He had short stroke issues so he needed to make it better for close to the table rallying (Timo Boll still has similar issues). I initially put most of the focus on the change on the fact that he was adapting to the plastic ball. But sometimes, changing equipment can enable you to get a feel for something you couldn't do before. So I trust him when he says that Chinese rubber made HIM feel better about his backhand and made HIM feel more comfortable with whatever changes he was working on. I mean, it's no accident that after Mizutani won a tournament, he revealed he had switched to T80 on his forehand. Yes, those help the sponsors, but the players will not reveal it if they don't think it helped them too.

 

[RidTheKid]

I know.

Why did FZD try to change from a perfectly working T05 to H3 on BH?

Ma Long used DHS blade and FH rubber before trying on DHS BH rubber. The changing of BH rubber has nothing to do with the sponsorship. It IS a big deal, said by himself/Liu Guoliang/Li Xiaodong/Wu Jingping and so on.
Seeing Ma Long's improved BH performance in 2015, other CNT players also tried to change to DHS BH rubber including Fan Zhendong, Yan An, Shang Kun and Xu Chenhao. But the rubber did not work well with Fan Zhendong and he switched back to Tenergy 05 in 2016 (check out his BH rubber in 2015 Pro Tour Grand finals and 2016 WTTC team events).

 

[NextLevel]

I know.

Why did FZD try to change from a perfectly working T05 to H3 on BH?

Why did Dima try to change from a perfectly working T05 to an H3 on the forehand?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Answer the question or refrain from responding at all.

Posts like this which is clearly just a personal attack and an argument for argument's sake is not going to be tolerated.

You feel that Ma Long worked hard on his BH. I think NextLevel knows Ma Long worked hard on his BH as well. You feel his BH improvement was the result of the practice and not the rubber change. NextLevel feels the practice was part of the what helped Ma Long's BH but that the H3 with the softer sponge that he is using now worked better for his BH than the T05 he used to use because his BH is a fairly large stroke.

I don't know who is right. But you can discuss the subject without personal attacks.



Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[NextLevel]

There's no personal attack coming from me. However, NextLevel always does this - responds with snide comments and I can play that game as well. And Carl, always show up acting like some sort of meddling oracle. That is not necessary. Not a single post will pass unnoticed without you feeling the need to comment, why is that? You can answer in PM instead of derailing this thread further.

You made it sound like people who actually believed that Ma Long's backhand improved after changing rubber, including Ma Long himself, were simply buying into a commercial pitch. It's almost like you were willing to ignore that Ma Long had been working on his backhand for years. So I believe him when he says that it made a big difference for him.

Then you were trying to insinuate that Fan Zhendong changed rubber because of DHS prompting. The analogy of Dima was perfect - you change because you think something else might be giving someone else and advantage, and if it doesn't work for you, you change back. It spoke for itself. It answered the question.

 

[RidTheKid]

CNT players get products presented from management and sponsors. Is there anyone who believes Ma Long surfs the internet for rubbers or reads equipment reviews on ttdb?

Why do you think FZD says he uses a Stiga blade?

Certainly the switch from T05 to H3 has helped ML become more consistent with his BH but seeing as his biggest competitors are BH oriented he would be stupid if he didn't put extra effort in his BH as well to be a complete player.

You made it sound like people who actually believed that Ma Long's backhand improved after changing rubber, including Ma Long himself, were simply buying into a commercial pitch. It's almost like you were willing to ignore that Ma Long had been working on his backhand for years. So I believe him when he says that it made a big difference for him.

Then you were trying to insinuate that Fan Zhendong changed rubber because of DHS prompting. The analogy of Dima was perfect - you change because you think something else might be giving someone else and advantage, and if it doesn't work for you, you change back. It spoke for itself. It answered the question.