Stats of CNT players against non-CNT players 2017

[NextLevel]

The only part of the discussion that I feel was worth taking issue with was the idea that ZJK's technique and strategy was somehow not good enough.

There may be many flaws with ZJK. But I don't think table tennis technique and strategy are ones that are actually problems.


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What he meant is that ZJK did not play well enough, bottom line, and that he was giving his usual effort, stop the excuses. You are attributing it to mental game, he is saying that Ma Long needs no such excuses.

People keep on reading it as if he is saying ZJK's technique and strategy are not great or world class, when he is really saying that ZJK is not good enough to win all the time. That's one of the reasons I have always considered Ma Long the better player.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

What he meant is that ZJK did not play well enough, bottom line, and that he was giving his usual effort, stop the excuses. You are attributing it to mental game, he is saying that Ma Long needs no such excuses.

People keep on reading it as if he is saying ZJK's technique and strategy are not great or world class, when he is really saying that ZJK is not good enough to win all the time. That's one of the reasons I have always considered Ma Long the better player.

Okay. If that is what he means, it makes sense.

Zhang Jike got hot and won a few very big tournaments. He never dominated and played like an unstoppable machine which Ma Long DEFINITELY has.

Ma Long's win percentage in the last few years is astounding. His win percentage since shortly after the 2011 WTTC is astounding. ZJK never went 50 straight matches without a loss. I think that was close to the number where Ma Long tied Wang Liqin's amazing record.

So, if the statement is that ZJK wasn't always in top form and didn't always win, there is no question about that. Who was arguing that? He has lost plenty and plenty of matches he probably shouldn't have lost.

I might try and figure out why he lost and what is going on with him. But he is, in my opinion a weird character and a head case who has a bad attitude and does not always show up to tournaments to play. I could be wrong. But that is what ZJK looks like to me. And I have to be honest, from my perspective, not showing up and not trying, that is not an excuse. It is much lamer to be like that than to try your hardest but simply not win. At least from my perspective.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[rainneverever]

About Ma Long's BH:
CNT coaches (Liu Guoliang, Li Xiaodong, Wu Jingping and so on) and retired players (Wang Liqin, Ma Lin, Wang Hao who commented on Marvellous 12 Trials) all think Ma Long's BH has been largely improved after changing to DHS rubber suggested by Liu Guoliang in late 2014. Ma Long also regarded the changing of rubber as the turning point of his career when he gave a speech in a TV show this year.

Ma Long also talked about his three losses to Wang Hao in the SFs of WTTC. No English subtitles yet.

 

[NextLevel]

So if the CNT coaches had been more competent earlier in Ma Long's career, he would have switched to Hurricane on BH and been a two time grand slam champion!

 

[RidTheKid]

ML is DHS' premium poster boy and would never say anything negative about them. Having said that, his BH improvement the last few years might be related to rubber change but more likely to extensive and focused BH practice.

Regarding ZJK - he's the biggest talent the last 10 years. When he's motivated and more or less injury free he's practically unstoppable. His playing style alone isn't enough to guarantee success, his head needs to be part of it. ML on the other hand is the best player ever. His consistency and finding ways to win is unparallelled. His playing style is most times enough to secure a win, but when he really puts his heart into it he really shines.

 

[TTFrenzy]

It is funny that the guy who came up with all statistics data, critical analyses for the win/loss based on opponents, timing, situation, etc., is interpreted as "talking crap", "look unreliable" by bunch of "facts" based on individual's opinions and theories.



(1,2,4) is about player's style, how could it be a factor to indicate "really talented player"? Not only Sali but somebody else also uses "play close to the table" as a dominant factor. In last Kuwait Open Fang Bo and many another occasions ML have proved that long, fast serve can make trouble to (close table + backhand flick) style. All goes down to who is having a better day, assuming that they both at (approx.) same level.
(5) That doesn't help to explain bunch of losses, and also doesn't support to "sleeping play" theory either.



Oh well, two paragraphs say it all.
It seems that the term "fact" have different standard, not relying on statistics data but theories on TTD, or providing some "non-relevant" video as reference and excuse that it may not be right. It does remind me about "Trump's wiretape theory" happened recently though LOL

Bottom line, there has been a bunch of different topics on matter of ZJK, ZJK vs. ML, CNT based on theory. Could we just let this topic become the first one based on statistic number? It may sound too "biased" for TTD community, but it is good to have one thread interpreting matters based on statistic fact, I think.

1.Facts are still facts, no need to hate so much One can easily see the difference between facts in posts and opinions in posts.

2. Statistics are not the whole truth, I hope you understand that when evaluating a situation. If you still dont get it, then ok my opinion is biased

3. Is it just a random situation or did the OP posted IN PURPOSE specific statistics about CNT vs foreigners, asked SPECIFIC questions about ZJK loses ONLY and still does not have the courtesy to admit that he is talking BS when clearly he knows jack shit about technique. PLEASE ENLIGHTEN us about which technique and which mentality is not good so we can actually send it to ZJK or use it for ourselves.

I am still talking facts, so bricephan gimme a break and if u want to analyze something analyze it properly, dont target quote me to prove a point.


Last , if you dont understand WHY close to the table play is SUPERIOR (no one used the world talented you come up with your own things and accusations. we use the word techique) and more effective (fast long serves of FANG BO really? did you even count how many they are compared to all of the points, gimme a ratio since you like statistics so much) then Im done talking to you

Once again, too many experts in here, I thought it would be agreat place to exchange TT knowledge till I see some forum users play in a video.

 

[TTFrenzy]

So if the CNT coaches had been more competent earlier in Ma Long's career, he would have switched to Hurricane on BH and been a two time grand slam champion!

It could also be the case

 

[TTFrenzy]

About Ma Long's BH:
CNT coaches (Liu Guoliang, Li Xiaodong, Wu Jingping and so on) and retired players (Wang Liqin, Ma Lin, Wang Hao who commented on Marvellous 12 Trials) all think Ma Long's BH has been largely improved after changing to DHS rubber suggested by Liu Guoliang in late 2014. Ma Long also regarded the changing of rubber as the turning point of his career when he gave a speech in a TV show this year.

Ma Long also talked about his three losses to Wang Hao in the SFs of WTTC. No English subtitles yet.

Dude, seriously you act like anyone said ML is not good. I said ML'S bh is not that good AS FZD LJK or ZJK.

Now if you have difficulties to believe that or believe otherwise, please give me BH to BH exchanges or make a statistical analysis about it and see how many BH to BH ML has won against those in 2012-2016 since we talk in olympic cycle.

 

[TTFrenzy]

Im still waiting for your analysis in ZJK technique and mentality. I showed you mine, now its time to show me yours

 

[NextLevel]

ML is DHS' premium poster boy and would never say anything negative about them. Having said that, his BH improvement the last few years might be related to rubber change but more likely to extensive and focused BH practice.

Regarding ZJK - he's the biggest talent the last 10 years. When he's motivated and more or less injury free he's practically unstoppable. His playing style alone isn't enough to guarantee success, his head needs to be part of it. ML on the other hand is the best player ever. His consistency and finding ways to win is unparallelled. His playing style is most times enough to secure a win, but when he really puts his heart into it he really shines.

So you think he didn't practice his backhand before then? Really?

I take him at his word that making his backhand rubber more like his forehand rubber did wonders for him.

 

[TTFrenzy]

Maybe my English is too poor to understand your arguments and/or too poor to be understood. If that is the case, I apologize. I said "his techniques/tactics are not good enough to secure an easy win" and TTFrenzy interpreted as "You did talk about ZJK's inferiority in mentality and technique, me carl and pingfun didnt degrade anyone in the CNT". I did not mean what TTFrenzy interpreted. Let me try again: "his techniques/tactics are not effective enough to secure an easy win". Is it any better?

As I said, if someone mentioned "for many times, Liu Guoliang said blablabla" and I pointed out there is NO such comment AT ALL, please provide me a reference and I will admit my ignorance and apologize.

Carl, I saw your analyses on the two matches in 2010 and 2012, but TTFrenzy did not indicate whether he agreed with you or not and he asked me to analyze other players' matches which I did not see a connection. Carl posted the 2012 London game, in which Zhang Jike's best known BH games were still great (we can count how many points he gained from BH flips and topspin if necessary). Besies, he ran; he also won points with FH; he tried and did save some set points; but he just did not beat Timo Boll. If you think this Zhang Jike was complete, perhaps Timo Boll "doping" is the most satisfactory explanation.

Ok so you basically said that ZHang DOES NOT win 4-0 like ma long does. Well, who cares? he win ddidnt he? grand slam at 1st attempt.

So this is getting really interesting. LETS MAKE SOME STATISTICS PEOPLE, Statistics are the truth.

ma longs attempts in worldchamps : 2007 2009 2011 2013 2015 = > 1 gold = winning ratio 20 % SO statistics say that MALONG SUCKS at world champs !! Do you get my point now about statistics?????

zhang jike attempts in world champs : 2011 2013 2015=> 2 golds => winning ratio 66 % so zhang must be REALLY REALLY GOOD in world champs right? . So why dont we KICK ML out of CNT since 1/5 is pretty damn poor result. Damn boy F logic.

Wanna examine world cups ?? ma long lose to boll samsonov and his first world tile was against boll a non chinese. Zhangs world cups are both against chinese, so statistics wise, zhang is better isnt he?

I' ll leave the pro tours aside, since they are the favorite ma long topic to address

Do you still DONT GET my point about statistics???

As for the timo boll match in 2012 , yes I also believe zhang was not in full beast mode like carl said. Maybe he was tiresome, maybe he indeed thought that ML and wang hao gonna clear that match or maybe he simply wasnt there mentaly because he won gold 2-3 days ago. I cant know for sure why he lost, lets also not forget that timo played excellent, its not always about zhang jike of course.

Now, check his matches against boll in 2012 2011 and 2014 and tell me that ma long wins against boll easier ;P

I know know ma long has better record. Its in the STATISTICS !!!

 

[NextLevel]

I wish there was a thumbs down button for the last post. It's the kind of thing you write when you aren't even trying to understand what someone is saying and you just want to argue for argument's sake.

Rainneverever's point is simple - there is no need to make special excuses for Zhang Jike. He doesn't always underperform as much as people think and continuing to make it seem like Zhang Jike at his best is the only Zhang Jike that is the real Zhang Jike is simply not how it works.

IT's okay to disagree with this, but doing so in the manner above is just not right.

 

[TTFrenzy]

Well, sorry if it was that annoying but first of all when rainnever and bricephan are basically accusing me of presenting personal opinions as facts or distorting the truth or misinterepreting their posts when they actually telling me I mgetting things out of my head or even producing fake LGL comments.

Next time Ill be sure I will post my ID card or keep a copy of every CNT comment I ve seen in my life because you know..I have so much to earn if i LIE in a forum about what a chinese player or coach said to another

Anyway sorry again for my manners, but I dont like people behaving with irony and basically depicting me as if I am stupid and "dont understand" their posts.

Dudes seriously, you didnt invent the wheels you know.

p.s. countless times I have seen in here the phrase "its funny how the X guy does that when facts are Z and he cant understand Y" So irony is polite and acceptable way of behaving but when I present the same facts in different situation this time with different numbers, Im the one who is not listening. Its "funny" isnt it?

 

[TTFrenzy]

Here is what I mean,

"george is stupid" , hey man maybe you want to rephrase that? do you have any proof or what

"ok im sorry, george is not so smart"

"george needs practice in certain aspects of his intelligence"



Well, Ill be damned, isnt he saying the same thing with different words???

p.s. why do I get to present my "opinion" in the first place I clearly dont understand what other people are saying.

 

[TTFrenzy]

I totally agree that Zhang Jike is a character and he had his time back then. But don't be fooled. He did not win some of the matches not because he did not care; simply because he was not that dominant, technically and mentally. What excuse can you find for his loss to Timo Boll in SF of team events in London 2012, only a few days after he became the Grand Slam? For CNT players and coaches, team events are way more important than singles; they don't afford to lose.

Zhang Jike was the training partner of Wang Hao and he won 4 big tournaments titles beating Wang Hao. He won only 1 champion in the whole year of 2014 (World Cup over Ma Long by a some margin and the famous banner story). He won 1 more champion, nationally and internationally, ever since Wang Hao retired in Dec 2014. The fact speaks.

If CNT players were kicked off to their province team, they could be back to CNT if they made to the QF of Chinese National Games(every 4 year) or National TT Championships (every year excluding the year of National Games) . For example, Li Ping, who currently represents Qatar, was kicked out of CNT in 2004. 8 months after, he got the 3rd place in National TTC and returned to CNT. In the case of Zhang Jike, he was kicked off in 2004. He did not made to QF in 2005 National Games (Gold: Wang Liqin, Silver: Wang Hao, Bronze: Ma Long) and he made to QF in 2006 National TTC (not made to SF) and went back to CNT. FYI, National Games are taken seriously by the athletes because they represent their provinces. In 2009 National Games, Gold went to Wang Hao, Silver to Ma Long and Bronze to Wang Liqin. In 2013 National Games, Gold went to Ma Long, Silver to Fan Zhendong, Bronze to Xu Xin. Zhang Jike did not make to SF in 2009 and 2013 National Games, representing his province Shandong.

Since the game is target quoting . Here there you go, that's the phrase I was talking about all along not the one rainever is nitpicking on purpose. Did my eyes fool me or I didnt understand the words in bold? Clearly I didnt understand what raineverever said.

 

[rainneverever]

I think a few people understood what I was saying even if my English was not that standard. And some people misinterpreted my words and insisted as if I said something which I did not.

All discussions about Zhang Jike started from the question below and my direct answer was Zhang Jike dominated Wang Hao around 2012 and made to Grand Slam. He did not dominant all others. Then the discussions became something like Zhang Jike won the matches that counted --How about 2012 London against Timo Boll(me) --Zhang Jike lost because he was injured/did not care.--Zhang Jike did care team events in big tournaments and he was not injured at that time, there must be something with his techniques and/or tactics because he had strong mentality (me).--No way that Zhang Jike had problems with his techniques and/or tactics. You degrade CNT players and you were talking crap.

Originally Posted by TTHopeful
Most dominating player in history? What was Zhang Jike's like in the lead up to London 2012?

When I compared Ma Long's loss to Timo Boll in 2010 and Zhang Jike's loss to Timo Boll in 2012, I considered basic information on age, world rankings, achievements at that time. Then I was told that this analysis is nonsense.

Again, I do not understand why Zhang Jike's losses when he was in his good days (2011-2013) has anything to do with Ma Long, especially with anything to do with Ma Long's losses in WTTC 2007(2:4 to Joo Sae-hyuk)/2009(1:4 to Wang Hao, the gold)/2011(2:4 to Wang Hao, the silver)/2013((1:4 to Wang Hao, the silver) and in World Cup 2008 (3:4 to Timo Boll, the runner-up)/2009(3:4 to Vladimir Samsonov, the winner). If I must explain Ma Long's losses above, it is simple: he was not technical and/or tactical and/or mental complete and he had injuries as well. No one disagreed. But for Zhang Jike, there are different theories which can be easily proved untrue like partying too much after becoming Grand Slam, bad attitude when presenting his nation, etc. But people just disagreed that there was something of his play made him loss.

 

[TTFrenzy]

I think a few people understood what I was saying even if my English was not that standard. And some people misinterpreted my words and insisted as if I said something which I did not.

All discussions about Zhang Jike started from the question below and my direct answer was Zhang Jike dominated Wang Hao around 2012 and made to Grand Slam. He did not dominant all others. Then the discussions became something like Zhang Jike won the matches that counted --How about 2012 London against Timo Boll(me) --Zhang Jike lost because he was injured/did not care.--Zhang Jike did care team events in big tournaments and he was not injured at that time, there must be something with his techniques and/or tactics because he had strong mentality (me).--No way that Zhang Jike had problems with his techniques and/or tactics. You degrade CNT players and you were talking crap.

Originally Posted by TTHopeful
Most dominating player in history? What was Zhang Jike's like in the lead up to London 2012?

When I compared Ma Long's loss to Timo Boll in 2010 and Zhang Jike's loss to Timo Boll in 2012, I considered basic information on age, world rankings, achievements at that time. Then I was told that this analysis is nonsense.

Again, I do not understand why Zhang Jike's losses when he was in his good days (2011-2013) has anything to do with Ma Long, especially with anything to do with Ma Long's losses in WTTC 2007(2:4 to Joo Sae-hyuk)/2009(1:4 to Wang Hao, the gold)/2011(2:4 to Wang Hao, the silver)/2013((1:4 to Wang Hao, the silver) and in World Cup 2008 (3:4 to Timo Boll, the runner-up)/2009(3:4 to Vladimir Samsonov, the winner). If I must explain Ma Long's losses above, it is simple: he was not technical and/or tactical and/or mental complete and he had injuries as well. No one disagreed. But for Zhang Jike, there are different theories which can be easily proved untrue like partying too much after becoming Grand Slam, bad attitude when presenting his nation, etc. But people just disagreed that there was something of his play made him loss.

No one at least not at this particular post said that ZJK didnt care in team events. You said that people say that without pointing out WHO specifically. its well known and a fact that ZJK does not play well in pro tours, especially when compared to ma long who always tries his best , thats undeniable.

ZJK himself said that he does not aim to win every tournament only important ones. Its a smart way to allocate your energy. Those are not his exact words but you can see the interview on youtube since you like facts so much . Its called "zhang jike one on one"

 

[rainneverever]

"because he was not that dominant, technically and mentally." I apologized if my poor English made you believe I was saying Zhang Jike was inferior technically and mentally. By "not that dominant" I meant he could not secure an easy win against some opponents and even lost to some. And you interpreted as I said he was inferior to ANYONE.

Since the game is target quoting . Here there you go, that's the phrase I was talking about all along not the one rainever is nitpicking on purpose. Did my eyes fool me or I didnt understand the words in bold? Clearly I didnt understand what raineverever said.

 

[TTFrenzy]

"because he was not that dominant, technically and mentally." I apologized if my poor English made you believe I was saying Zhang Jike was inferior technically and mentally. By "not that dominant" I meant he could not secure an easy win against some opponents and even lost to some. And you interpreted as I said he was inferior to ANYONE.

No, I didnt misinterpret it. Not that dominant means you are making a comparison obviously and your counter evidence/data was malong results XX results and fzd results.

Fine by that, but when I ask you about other results of ma long against boll and zhang jike against boll and I present to you a way that statistics can be misleading into a situation and one can easily be fooled by statistics if he does not take other factors into consideration, then you started saying that these results are not related. Why ? Are you kidding me or do you just think that statistics is all that matters ?

XX had a great record against zhang jike before 2013, watch the semifinal again and we can talk about dominance all day.

If numbers is the ONLY case and the ONLY criteria then ma long is no1 of all time in pro tours

If team events are the ONLY criteria to judge a player then ma long again is no1 of all time

If world champs and olympic world cup medals is the ONLY criteria then zhang jike is still no 1 in terms of results, success ratio and dominating performances .

If trials are the ONLY criteria then again zhang is no1

But guess what, when you are coach/player in the best NT of the world its not all about numbers

If it was that way, then every final would be ML vs XX from 2010 and after since their results are the most consistent and ML vs XX was the most likely final in every pro tour

 

[rainneverever]

Carl said in #20: "I think ZJK is a self absorbed egotistical guy who doesn't care about the team events and played badly because he didn't care. There are many matches ZJK lost where it looks like he just didn't have his head or his heart in the match. "

I know the interview "Zhang Jike One on One" you mentioned. Do you agree that team events are important ones for him?
There are interviews/news that Zhang Jike even made promise to Liu Guoliang before Rio 2016 that he would lose no more match in team events.

No one at least not at this particular post said that ZJK didnt care in team events. You said that people say that without pointing out WHO specifically. its well known and a fact that ZJK does not play well in pro tours, especially when compared to ma long who always tries his best , thats undeniable.

ZJK himself said that he does not aim to win every tournament only important ones. Its a smart way to allocate your energy. Those are not his exact words but you can see the interview on youtube since you like facts so much . Its called "zhang jike one on one"