Table Tennis Crisis

says Pimples Schmimples
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That's what Murakami has touched on after Paris 2024 about qualities that set CNT players apart. In Chinese, it's often referred to as 周旋能力, literally the ability to circle around, which is based upon 紥實的基本功/solid fundamentals.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...-be-revamped-for-paris-2024.24977/post-473809
He's 100% wrong.
You can train mental strength. This is a proven and demonstrated fact.
Djokovic is the prefect case in point and he has said so many times.
It applies to TT also.
If Murakami and other Japanese coaches really believe this it might explain why Harimoto can't do it at crunch time
 
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You can train mental strength. This is a proven and demonstrated fact
Absolutely and neither nationality nor ethnicity have got anything to do with it.

I am going to be honest and tell you who i specifically thought about when talk came to allegedly superior mental strength in Chinese top players.
Now, he is one of my favorite players but I think it was during the Tokyo games he literally fell apart at the table. I felt really sorry for him. :cry:
 
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Absolutely and neither nationality nor ethnicity have got anything to do with it.

I am going to be honest and tell you who i specifically thought about when talk came to allegedly superior mental strength in Chinese top players.
Now, he is one of my favorite players but I think it was during the Tokyo games he literally fell apart at the table. I felt really sorry for him. :cry:
A guy with a certain hidden serve? Haha
 
says Pimples Schmimples
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Absolutely and neither nationality nor ethnicity have got anything to do with it.

I am going to be honest and tell you who i specifically thought about when talk came to allegedly superior mental strength in Chinese top players.
Now, he is one of my favorite players but I think it was during the Tokyo games he literally fell apart at the table. I felt really sorry for him. :cry:
Literally fell apart
Did his arm fall off? 😂

Are you referring to FZD?
Didn't he runner up to Ma Long in Tokyo. Lost the last 3 games 7,8,9 (easy to remember😊) hardly a disintegration...

Hang on, who are you talking about??
 
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Literally fell apart
Did his arm fall off? 😂

Are you referring to FZD?
Didn't he runner up to Ma Long in Tokyo. Lost the last 3 games 7,8,9 (easy to remember😊) hardly a disintegration...

Hang on, who are you talking about??
Xu Xin and Liu Shiwen in mixed doubles
 
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Literally fell apart
Did his arm fall off? 😂

Are you referring to FZD?
Didn't he runner up to Ma Long in Tokyo. Lost the last 3 games 7,8,9 (easy to remember😊) hardly a disintegration...

Hang on, who are you talking about??
Nah. Fan Zhendong had a serial mental problem when it came to Ma Long and it wasn't really technical. It was clearly a disintegration to me and had if not happened, I think Ma Long would have been in Houston. FZD has fixed some of those issues now with his performances but it was tough to watch back then how the pressure of not having won anything got to him.
 
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He's 100% wrong.
You can train mental strength. This is a proven and demonstrated fact.
Djokovic is the prefect case in point and he has said so many times.
It applies to TT also.
If Murakami and other Japanese coaches really believe this it might explain why Harimoto can't do it at crunch time
You can't train mental strength apart from technical tools. That is what he meant. This is true. Even Djokovic had to improve his serve, fitness and shot selection. While he speaks about training mental strength with things like breathing, the main point is that how you use your competitive tools is just as technical as it is mental. You can't try a new serve at critical moments if you haven't built that serve in the first place. You can't play with more spin under pressure if you don't practice playing with spin to increase consistency in the first place.
 
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says Pimples Schmimples
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You can't train mental strength apart from technical tools. That is what he meant. This is true. Even Djokovic had to improve his serve, fitness and shot selection. While he speaks about training mental strength with things like breathing, the main point is that how you use your competitive tools is just as technical as it is mental. You can't try a new serve at critical moments if you haven't built that serve in the first place. You can't play with more spin under pressure if you don't practice playing with spin to increase consistency in the first place.
I know what he meant, I had read the link before responding but it's not true that you cannot train mental strength.
It's not about trying new shots or serves.
It's purely about controlling your thoughts, emotions, body language, inner voice in stressful and key situations.
You can be a top TOP player like Djokovic or Ma Long or just a top 50 player and still work on this. It's about self control and self mastery and absolutely it can be learned and worked on separately from the technical skills required for ones sport.
 
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I know what he meant, I had read the link before responding but it's not true that you cannot train mental strength.
It's not about trying new shots or serves.
It's purely about controlling your thoughts, emotions, body language, inner voice in stressful and key situations.
You can be a top TOP player like Djokovic or Ma Long or just a top 50 player and still work on this. It's about self control and self mastery and absolutely it can be learned and worked on separately from the technical skills required for ones sport.
In my experience, such things work far better when tied to skill development and weapons that the players actually deploy. You can't reduce your risk in tight moments if you do not have the skills to reduce your risk in tight moments. The mental aspect is often spoken about as if it is separate from the technical aspect but in competition, they are often very much tied together. Training mental strength with the goal of winning does require you to some degree to already have a lot of skills for it to be really effective.
 
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That's what Fang Bo said when people asked about LGY's collapses vs LJK's excellence in tight games. He said the issue isn't mental, it's primarily technique. LGY uses a fast, direct, close to the table technique that's not very error tolerant, while LJK uses all his power (FB thinks he's the most powerful in the CNT) to generate spin which creates safety. Everyone gets a bit nervous in important games. LGY's shots are awe-inspiring when he lands them and allows him to beat anyone when he's on, but they're much more affected by small perturbations which might happen when you're tired, stressed, and nervous while LJK's technique can handle these perturbations much better.
In his book 乒乓球有意思/Ping Pong Interesting, Wu Jingping goes into detail on LGY's FH being his downfall and why he didn't think highly of him from the very beginning.

吴敬平10年前就说不看好林高远,他有个技术问题太致命还改不了!-乒乓国球汇
https://www.sohu.com/a/607747373_555700

Yep and everyone blamed Ma Long for mental problems for losing 3 straight WTTC to Wang Hao when it was really his BH that let him down big time. After he completely overhauled his BH game and switched to Hurricane on BH to get better spin/control, he became the dominant GOAT.
WJP delved into that in one of many paid Q&A sessions on his Weibo in 2017 and ML's BH issue against WH started from the serve and receive.

https://www.douban.com/group/topic/242886279
王皓 张继科 马龙 由于技术互相制约的麦田怪圈:

...
 
says Pimples Schmimples
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In my experience, such things work far better when tied to skill development and weapons that the players actually deploy.
I'd agree with this.
However in the context of this thread and in relation to the OP I see a player who got to 1900 before falling apart mentally.
To then read you cannot train mentality without training skills is what I outright disagree with. I believe that if the OP didn't improve a single thing technically, he could fortify himself significantly if he just got the mental aspect close to 100%.

You can't reduce your risk in tight moments if you do not have the skills to reduce your risk in tight moments.
This isn't true though.
Having the belief, the calm, the capacity to think clearly is not alone attached to the outcome. Outcome is certainly dependent on my skill level which still might not be enough. But the postmortem afterwards will be I did all I could and the opponent was better rather than I'll never know what I could have done because I fell apart in my head
The mental aspect is often spoken about as if it is separate from the technical aspect but in competition, they are often very much tied together.
As I said above, you can have good technical skills and a poor mentality or vice versa. Training both at the same time is obviously good but it's also 'possible' to work on them separately.
Training mental strength with the goal of winning does require you to some degree to already have a lot of skills for it to be really effective.
If you tie it to WINNING then yes, you must also have the skills to beat a good opponent. But it's enough to tie it to doing YOUR best and then to know that it wasn't nerves, occasion or anything else that I unduly influenced you. I'm speaking from personal experience of course, I've been competing at sports for 30+ yrs. The ability to handle pressure in football ( a sport I was pretty good at) also helps me in sports that I'm still learning, those being Tennis and Table Tennis - even when I do not have the technical skills to beat superior opponents.
 
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I'd agree with this.
However in the context of this thread and in relation to the OP i see a player who got to 1900 before falling apart mentally.
To then read, you cannot train mentality without training skills is what I outright disagree with. Silo I believe that if the OP didn't improve a single thing technically I believe he could fortify himself significantly if he just got the mental aspect close to 100%.


This isn't true though.
Having the belief, the calm, the capacity to think clearly is not attached to the outcome which, after this is dependent on my skill level which still might not be enough. But the postmortem afterwards will be I did all I could and the opponent was better rather than I'll never know what I could have done because I fell apart in my head

As I said above, you can have good technical skills and a poor mentality or vice versa. Training both at the same time is obviously good but it's also 'possible' to work one them separately.

If you tie it to WINNING then yes, you must also have the skills to beat a good opponent. But it's enough to tie it to doing YOUR best then it's enough to know that it wasn't nerves, occasion or anything else that I unduly influenced you. I'm speaking from personal experience of course, I've been competing at sports for 30+ yrs. The ability to handle pressure in football ( a sport I was pretty good) also helps me in sports that I'm still learning, those being Tennis and Table Tennis - even when I do not have the technical skills to beat superior opponents.
So I think our ultimate diagnosis is different. I see in OP a player who got to 1900 and misunderstood what the 1900 rating was because of how he got there, and assumed that 1900 earned after playing for a few tournaments (say 20 matches or much less) was the same as 1900 earned after playing for a few years of tournaments (maybe 200 matches, at least 50 or more). With the latter, you have usually competed through a variety of circumstances and developed a solid understanding of competition. With the former, the context in which you earned your rating can be very incomplete and you might be too low or too high depending on the context. It is much more difficult to have the wrong context having played almost 200 matches though it is theoretically possible. This is one of the criticisms of the USATT ratings system that Ratings Central tried to fix by using more statistics to determine a full rating picture.

It's influencing his mental strength now, but it is partly because the original rating gave him a wrong understanding of table tennis strength. To become a solid "whatever rating" player, you have to have competed in multiple circumstances against a variety of styles at that level to be truly solid. And this is notwithstanding the variations that will occur with age and health and mood etc.

I'm trying to build some players right now and with my coaching, one of the things I try to keep them aware of is the context in which my coaching and the skills I am showing them work and the contexts in which they don't, so they stop seeing table tennis as an "I can do anything because of my skills game" and more as a "this things need to be in place so I can do this, and I need to find a way to get the opponent to play to my strengths"). Being strong against topspin players doesn't mean you won't struggle against pips, I have seen 2300+ rated players lose to 1800 pips players, its part of the reason I am big on early pips exposure for learners so their understanding grows with their level of play.

But someone starts missing the table because they like to play fast all the time, and I try to explain to them that when facing pips, there is no need to attack hard until the opponent imposes that tempo on you. Or someone gets a kill shot opportunity and focuses exclusively on power and less on placement and gets the ball blocked back. Or someone can return pendulum serves at 2200 level but backhand serves to his short forehand at a 1700 level but doesn't address the gap and then wonders why once his opponents know what to do, they consistently beat him.

Long story short, OP definitely achieved the 1890 rating but as to whether he had all the skills truly associated with 1890 and whether defending that rating for him is all about mental strength, I am not sold. Not that there are specific skills per se associated with a rating, but more that sometimes, you need the struggle to truly build mental strength, and we sometimes pretend the strength is easy or possible to build apart from the struggle.

Because of that distortion, he sees his losing as a sign he is not playing his best. Whether that is true or not is an entirely open question.
 
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LA is a tough area with so many 1500 to 1600 rated players who are really 2000 level.

One might get 2000 in LA, but holding is tough until you break through.

I made almost 2100 after 2019 LA Open... held it a couple years... then the parade of ringers... didn't help it that I went coaching.

Hang in there, keep it up.
 
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I think your technique is great. You seem to be playing slow though, i.e. not hitting the ball very hard. Your coaches probably made you focus on technique first to build the fundamentals. Try hitting more winners, you've got a great (but stiff) technique. Some of the balls you get in those matches should be absolutely crunched with your BH, they are 90% your point if you become more aggressive.

Even if you lose the next 20 matches doing this once you getting the feeling of hitting winners your fundamentals will accelerate your ability.
 
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says Pimples Schmimples
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So I think our ultimate diagnosis is different. I see in OP a player who got to 1900 and misunderstood what the 1900 rating was because of how he got there, and assumed that 1900 earned after playing for a few tournaments (say 20 matches or much less) was the same as 1900 earned after playing for a few years of tournaments (maybe 200 matches, at least 50 or more). With the latter, you have usually competed through a variety of circumstances and developed a solid understanding of competition. With the former, the context in which you earned your rating can be very incomplete and you might be too low or too high depending on the context. It is much more difficult to have the wrong context having played almost 200 matches though it is theoretically possible. This is one of the criticisms of the USATT ratings system that Ratings Central tried to fix by using more statistics to determine a full rating picture.

It's influencing his mental strength now, but it is partly because the original rating gave him a wrong understanding of table tennis strength. To become a solid "whatever rating" player, you have to have competed in multiple circumstances against a variety of styles at that level to be truly solid. And this is notwithstanding the variations that will occur with age and health and mood etc.

I'm trying to build some players right now and with my coaching, one of the things I try to keep them aware of is the context in which my coaching and the skills I am showing them work and the contexts in which they don't, so they stop seeing table tennis as an "I can do anything because of my skills game" and more as a "this things need to be in place so I can do this, and I need to find a way to get the opponent to play to my strengths"). Being strong against topspin players doesn't mean you won't struggle against pips, I have seen 2300+ rated players lose to 1800 pips players, its part of the reason I am big on early pips exposure for learners so their understanding grows with their level of play.

But someone starts missing the table because they like to play fast all the time, and I try to explain to them that when facing pips, there is no need to attack hard until the opponent imposes that tempo on you. Or someone gets a kill shot opportunity and focuses exclusively on power and less on placement and gets the ball blocked back. Or someone can return pendulum serves at 2200 level but backhand serves to his short forehand at a 1700 level but doesn't address the gap and then wonders why once his opponents know what to do, they consistently beat him.

Long story short, OP definitely achieved the 1890 rating but as to whether he had all the skills truly associated with 1890 and whether defending that rating for him is all about mental strength, I am not sold. Not that there are specific skills per se associated with a rating, but more that sometimes, you need the struggle to truly build mental strength, and we sometimes pretend the strength is easy or possible to build apart from the struggle.

Because of that distortion, he sees his losing as a sign he is not playing his best. Whether that is true or not is an entirely open question.
I don't disagree with any of that. Good post!
I have to say again, because I'm not in any position to critique or give much advice to 1700+ players in terms of technical issues or requirements so I'm only trying to talk about what I know I could help with and that's the mental/physiological side of things.
Whatever the reason for the despair (and I think you're probably correct about what caused it) I think there are good ways to approach things to be able to hold it together in future.
In fact, remembering much of the advice given and looking at the situation through the lens you've given I think the OP probably has everything he needs to move forward very positively, including support and offers to play in his local area!
As turbozed already said, this is a great thread!
 
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says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
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I think your technique is great. You seem to be playing slow though, i.e. not hitting the ball very hard. Your coaches probably made you focus on technique first to build the fundamentals. Try hitting more winners, you've got a great (but stiff) technique. Some of the balls you get in those matches should be absolutely crunched with your BH, they are 90% your point if you become more aggressive.

Even if you lose the next 20 matches doing this once you getting the feeling of hitting winners your fundamentals will accelerate your ability.
That's what the OP is struggling with. He can't do it at will in rated events and he thinks it has to do with his mind. As it stands, the situation will just get worse if he forces the shots.

In the last video, the guy in gray did a very good job of keeping the ball on the table, rarely hit hard most of the time and instead focused on building up the point with spinny shots. He didn't hit many winners as a result but also didn't make many unforced errors either. He played a control game with well-placed shots that made the OP uncomfortable. There were quite a few points in which the opponent was dictating the rallies and the OP didn't know what returns to expect and was merely reacting. In Chinese, it's said 輸得不冤枉/losing fair and square. The opponent was the better player of that match even if he didn't hit many beautiful shots. The OP has to reconcile himself to that fact and look beyond the psychological factor. There is a lot to learn from the opponent here.
 
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That's what the OP is struggling with. He can't do it at will in rated events and he thinks it has to do with his mind.
He didn't say that.
The not being able to do it IS the thing that's messing up his mind.
He said he was getting stressed, frustrated, agitated and freezing up.
He didn't say he had a mental block but more that competing and losing was screwing him up.
It's a chicken/egg situation but what's the chicken and what's the egg?
It's clear from the videos that he can play.
You're seem to be saying that playing better shots will give a better outcome and 'look beyond the psychological'.
But in this case he has to be able to control his mind better to enable him to do that.
Only then will your tactical or technical advice be helpful.
 
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Don't waste my time. Everybody gets what he is saying. Why did his opponent not freeze up? Because he is the better player that could cope with it. It's good that the OP is looking at himself for problems, but he's looking in the wrong place. Forcing big shots (higher motor unit recruitment = lower fine motor control) in that state will only worsen the situation.

Understanding limitations of the “fight or flight” response
https://www.corrections1.com/office...he-fight-or-flight-response-YohO5xv5WG0sui0v/
In addition, when the body’s innate alarm system is activated, adrenaline is released to provide lightning fast response to threat. The body receives a burst of energy, blood pumps faster, muscles tense, eyes widen, respirations are faster, and hands tremble, and so on. As the body remains in this phase, unessential fine motor skills (e.g., writing and typing) deteriorate, but lifesaving gross motor skills (e.g., running and jumping) improve.

First Due: The Anatomy of Fear and Stress
https://www.firehouse.com/operation...4904/first-due-the-anatomy-of-fear-and-stress
A person’s heart rate in turn also increases when a person is stressed to provide additional blood to the muscles. However, at a heart rate of 115 beats per minute (bpm), fine motor skills, dexterity and hand-eye coordination begin to decrease. (This is different from heart rate being increased due to exercise, because it’s induced by the release of hormones into the blood.)

At 145 bpm, complex motor skills begin to diminish, along with the ability to hear. It has been estimated that at 175 bpm, a person’s visual field decreases by as much as 70 percent. Depth perception is lost. Short-term memory loss and/or critical-stress amnesia also can occur.
When the heart rate reaches 185 bpm, a person’s ability to think logically is affected negatively, which can cause irrational behavior or combativeness, even against the very people who are trying to assist the person.
 
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says Pimples Schmimples
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Don't waste my time. Everybody gets what he is saying. Why did his opponent not freeze up? Because he is the better player that could cope with it. It's good that the OP is looking at himself for problems, but he's looking in the wrong place. Forcing big shots (higher motor unit recruitment = lower fine motor control) in that state will only worsen the situation.

Understanding limitations of the “fight or flight” response
https://www.corrections1.com/office...he-fight-or-flight-response-YohO5xv5WG0sui0v/


First Due: The Anatomy of Fear and Stress
https://www.firehouse.com/operation...4904/first-due-the-anatomy-of-fear-and-stress
You're wasting your own time Zeio and talking out your hoop again as usual.
Do yourself a favor and read the first post again. None of what's described is close to a normal reaction to losing a few games. Unless you also react like this when you lose... do you?
Did the op ask for help improving his technique?
Or ask for help on how to play against a certain type of game or certain style of play?
All the crap links to stress and no advice on how to alleviate, reduce or control it except the brilliant idea for the OP is to get better at Table tennis.
By your reckoning the only solution is for the Op to win all of his matches.
Apply to Mensa there, your genius clearly has no bounds
 
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