table tennis tips "Increase Spin in table tennis by Chinese coaching"

[Baal]

If a professor wrote a thesis on a subject and someone took the information and posted it anonymously presenting it as their own, we would call that plagiarism and we understand why that is a dangerous thing. When a person on the internet hides behind a false identity, we understand that it can cause some real problems. Why and how is this different?

I very much get the concept. (A doctoral student I was supervising did this and needless to say, he will never be allowed into another graduate program in the US). I guess it just needs to be practical and this is all "for entertainment purposes only". We can't really protect people from getting bad information on the internet. I actually am a professor so I get it, but getting things published, going through peer-review, all that, often not any fun at all. I come here for fun, like most people. Plus, some of the flame wars are occasionally entertaining. And in spite of the extremely informal nature of it all, I do occasionally come away with useful information.

Rather than just banning someone, you can just mock them (if you don't go too far).

 

[Persistence TT]

I very much get the concept. (A doctoral student I was supervising did this and needless to say, he will never be allowed into another graduate program in the US). I guess it just needs to be practical and this is all "for entertainment purposes only". We can't really protect people from getting bad information on the internet. I actually am a professor so I get it, but getting things published, going through peer-review, all that, often not any fun at all. I come here for fun, like most people. Plus, some of the flame wars are occasionally entertaining. And in spite of the extremely informal nature of it all, I do occasionally come away with useful information.

Rather than just banning someone, you can just mock them (if you don't go too far).

Well I must admit it I like mocking people that try to mock me, but we both do it in a different way Sometimes I just cant help it against guys like pnachtwey, sebas aguirre (that "kowabonga" nickname from NL still cracks me up). Trash talking is entertaining sometimes. Anyway with all that flame and arguement we actually did a good job promoting emrat's channel even more

Sopeople,

for real 100 % chinese secrets of table tennis that are from a 100% chinese coach and not some random vietnamese guy who pretends to be chinese, here you go

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9NJj8pFbzwxgj0pr3Vb0oaVQhI8MJ854

MAKE TABLE TENNIS GREAT AGAIN

 

[TurboZ]

Privacy is the reason why EmRat is keeping his identity anonymous. May be until the time is right. I respect that.

 

[NextLevel]

Sure. I respect that too. And privacy is the reason he is not providing his years of experience or some estimate of his playing/coaching level? Really?

Privacy is the reason why EmRat is keeping his identity anonymous. May be until the time is right. I respect that.

View attachment 11901

 

[Shuki]

Welp, the thread kept getting bigger so I decided it was time to start reading before it was too late to catch up.

Great videos! Some of the tips I think would set me back a few steps but some of them are pretty good for starting players! Hopefully those beginners will understand which tips are things they shouldn't listen to, but probably not.

I think you should make a video telling students to pick and choose which tips to follow. Not every tip is for everyone.

 

[Baal]

Its like learning to loop from Charlie Chan.

 

[iammaru]

I think emrat is just a normal table tennis player who creates youtube videos with information gathered from all kinds of sources (maybe internet, forums, friends... etc.) I don't think he is a high level player/coach. I may be wrong but that's what I think. I've seen/heard some exact things that he said on various tt forums and articles.
He seems to be obsessed with the idea of some Chinese secrets to be superior in table tennis. This myth (is it?) is pretty popular here in Vietnam, although they don't agree about the exact secret, some says the Chinese rubbers, some says the technique, but they believe that the Chinese know things about table tennis that the rest of the world doesn't.

 

[Baal]

I think emrat is just a normal table tennis player who creates youtube videos with information gathered from all kinds of sources (maybe internet, forums, friends... etc.) I don't think he is a high level player/coach. I may be wrong but that's what I think. I've seen/heard some exact things that he said on various tt forums and articles.
He seems to be obsessed with the idea of some Chinese secrets to be superior in table tennis. This myth (is it?) is pretty popular here in Vietnam, although they don't agree about the exact secret, some says the Chinese rubbers, some says the technique, but they believe that the Chinese know things about table tennis that the rest of the world doesn't.

Yes, it is clear what you say. Of course this is coupled in the case of Emrat with really strange beliefs about what the rest of the world DOESN'T know. What is funny is that he thinks he has discovered the secret knowledge.

I've traveled to China and visited a provincial training center for kids in Wuhan*. One thing that was obvious, the single biggest part of the Chinese "secret" is turning large numbers of kids in various places around the country into essentially professional players subjected to incredibly intense training from about age 10 on, and then selecting from the best of the best of this group. It also helps to have a centralized national training facility with coaches, trainers, strength coaches, sports psychologists etc. That will get results. People looking for a single secret ingredient will not find it.

* A guy who had trained as kid at that facility later reached the peak of his playing career as sort of a low-level province team member, and later came to the US to coach in my city (he was about 21 or so at the time). He had all sorts of problems with the person who brought him here to coach his kid (a long story in itself, not very pleasant). My wife and I helped him out several times, eventually found him a place to live on his own for a few months and we became very close. After about a year or so he returned to China, where I visited him a couple of times. He took me to visit the places he had trained. It was fun. But sadly for this guy, he has had some problems finding things to do back there because the schools he went to as a kid were essentially TT schools, and his life skills have been somewhat limited, and at this point he wants nothing to do with TT.

 

[Baal]

I met another kid here who had just started the university where I teach (this was about 5 years ago). Until age 13 he had been at one of these provincial training facilities in Xiamen in Fujian province. At about age 13-14, his mom got concerned for him and he transferred to regular schools where he did well. His parents are reasonably well off and he was able to eventually attend university in the US (where I teach). That is somewhat unusual at the undergraduate level because of the costs. He did really well, earned a BS in petroleum engineering (he couldn't have picked worse timing for that, though) and is now getting a MS in computer science. First time I played with him he was about 2200-2300 without having picked up a paddle in over 18 months. He had perfect Chinese technique. He still plays about 10 times a year at most. For awhile there we would play about twice a month.

The point being, though, that this guy was smart enough to escape from ping pong jail in time to do other things with his life. I learned a lot about how they trained kids from him.

 

[NextLevel]

Yes, it is clear what you say. Of course this is coupled in the case of Emrat with really strange beliefs about what the rest of the world DOESN'T know. What is funny is that he thinks he has discovered the secret knowledge.

I've traveled to China and visited a provincial training center for kids in Wuhan*. One thing that was obvious, the single biggest part of the Chinese "secret" is turning large numbers of kids in various places around the country into essentially professional players subjected to incredibly intense training from about age 10 on, and then selecting from the best of the best of this group. It also helps to have a centralized national training facility with coaches, trainers, strength coaches, sports psychologists etc. That will get results. People looking for a single secret ingredient will not find it.

* A guy who had trained as kid at that facility later reached the peak of his playing career as sort of a low-level province team member, and later came to the US to coach in my city (he was about 21 or so at the time). He had all sorts of problems with the person who brought him here to coach his kid (a long story in itself, not very pleasant). My wife and I helped him out several times, eventually found him a place to live on his own for a few months and we became very close. After about a year or so he returned to China, where I visited him a couple of times. He took me to visit the places he had trained. It was fun. But sadly for this guy, he has had some problems finding things to do back there because the schools he went to as a kid were essentially TT schools, and his life skills have been somewhat limited, and at this point he wants nothing to do with TT.

This is one of the best posts ever written about the supposedly secret Chinese approach to table tennis.

 

[NextLevel]

I met another kid here who had just started the university where I teach (this was about 5 years ago). Until age 13 he had been at one of these provincial training facilities in Xiamen in Fujian province. At about age 13-14, his mom got concerned for him and he transferred to regular schools where he did well. His parents are reasonably well off and he was able to eventually attend university in the US (where I teach). That is somewhat unusual at the undergraduate level because of the costs. He did really well, earned a BS in petroleum engineering (he couldn't have picked worse timing for that, though) and is now getting a MS in computer science. First time I played with him he was about 2200-2300 without having picked up a paddle in over 18 months. He had perfect Chinese technique. He still plays about 10 times a year at most. For awhile there we would play about twice a month.

The point being, though, that this guy was smart enough to escape from ping pong jail in time to do other things with his life. I learned a lot about how they trained kids from him.

And so is this one. Says a lot about the forced allocation of human resources.

 

[Baal]

One thing the second guy told me is that these days at a lot of the facilities in China they are giving better attention to schooling. He and his mom were thinking at the time that he was one of the lower-half of players at his age at this provincial team (there were a lot of them) and that his province was weaker than a lot of the others, so what was the point of it? The comparison that comes to my mind, I suppose, is basketball in the US. There is a great documentary film, made in 1994, called Hoop Dreams

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoop_Dreams

These kids were betting everything on the idea that they would eventually make it into the NBA. They didn't. They ended up ok in the end, but it was not easy for them. In China I think they realized that they need to take better care of the kids who don't move on.

 

[TurboZ]

I think emrat is just a normal table tennis player who creates youtube videos with information gathered from all kinds of sources (maybe internet, forums, friends... etc.) I don't think he is a high level player/coach....

True. I believe he had clearly mentioned it in his first post "...As I'm not a pro player, these tips may be not applicable to all of the level. If you are already at a very high level, you could find these tutorials not helpful, however I think it would be useful for beginner and early-intermediate player..."

 

[SchemeSC]

True. I believe he had clearly mentioned it in his first post "...As I'm not a pro player, these tips may be not applicable to all of the level. If you are already at a very high level, you could find these tutorials not helpful, however I think it would be useful for beginner and early-intermediate player..."

Except they are NOT useful for most beginning and early-intermediate players and can actually be harmful without proper context. I tried to give some concrete examples earlier in the thread about how the type of information found in Emrat's videos can be damaging, but the prevailing attitude here is "Oh, you can just take the advice or leave it. No harm done! Everybody wins!"

I understand that at the end of the day, I am the one that is ultimately resonsable for my own game. But there are people out there without access to quality coaching who will put way too much stock into these types of videos and be led down the wrong path with lots of wrong ideas. I feel bad for them, because I've been there.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

True. I believe he had clearly mentioned it in his first post "...As I'm not a pro player, these tips may be not applicable to all of the level. If you are already at a very high level, you could find these tutorials not helpful, however I think it would be useful for beginner and early-intermediate player..."

And yet, the idea of how he describes holding the racket with index finger and thumb, starting relaxed and applying pressure to the grip timed with the impact is pretty advanced. Not the relaxed part. Maybe not all the details of how you use the index finger and thumb But certainly the idea of timing pressure to the grip with the contact is decently advanced. And the suggestions on how the grip switches are pretty advanced too and perhaps are better left to the unconscious. Because, when you switch your wrist and forearm for FH or BH most of those subtle adjustments of grip happen without you even thinking about it or realizing it.

In fact, if you take a high level player who says he does not change his grip and film him switching from FH to BH and back, you will be able to see when you freeze the film, that the grip has switched. Even if you film a high level player hitting

a) a crosscourt hook,
b) a straight crosscourt loop and
c) a down the line fade

you will see subtle and not so subtle shifts in grip for the different contact points of each shot. We do this without thinking about it or even fully realizing we are doing it.

So, this video that started the thread, at least, is not beginner material. But it is good information for someone ready for it. In the end, even the pressure applied on contact becomes part of muscle memory and is not done consciously. But that is exactly what training is for. To get good habits into muscle memory.


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[NextLevel]

Here we go again... SchemeSC, Carl, unless you have something new to say, please....


If you don't get it by now....
You will never never ever get it...
Ooooooooo....

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Here we go again... SchemeSC, Carl, unless you have something new to say, please....


If you don't get it by now....
You will never never ever get it...
Ooooooooo....

Doh!

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[NextLevel]

Doh!

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Really to the tune of this...

 

[Persistence TT]

Very interesting story Baal. An interesting "anecdote story" which completely destroys the "myth" about chinese secrets is what a junior team mate of George Fragkoulis told me about him

For those who dont know him, he played and performed really well some years ago, against Flore clearly in the last minute because one of A team members was injured a few hours before the match.

Fragkoulis was a promising and very talented player and still is I think he still plays in Pro A or Pro B in France and wanted to pursue a professional carreer. He had to face extreme favoritism and nepotism inside the Greek NT and his relationships with the federation were really bad.

At one point he decided to visit China for a few months with another junior national member to learn "better" "advanced" training methods and chinese "secrets". His expectations were quickly destroyed and got extremely disappointed as he saw that the training was extremely simple and "boring" for european mentality. Thousands of balls to perfect the basics in multi balls and countless hours of executing the same serve/receive/stroke over and over till perfection .

He thought that just because he paid tons of money to the academy that he will receive excellent training quality and that the coaches will be over his head, giving him "pro chinese" advice. Hilarious isnt it? At least for me it is

A similar story is waldner's first visit to china, he even thought about quitting and getting back to sweden but he decided to stay and continue training out of pure stubbornness. You watch him tell the story in 07:15 of the bragden documentary. Erik lindh on the other hand, thought the place was a paradise because they eat sleep and train all day. So its also a matter of personal taste and many good questions arise, as of how can you keep youngsters with different personalities motivated to play again and again. Xiao Zhan also stated in wttc 2013 that its very important to keep the kids interested in playing the game

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Relentless persistence in practicing and developing the basics, very simple practice done for hours on end, totally makes sense to me. And to me this also sounds like heaven. Too bad, at 51, with a family to support and some of the normal speed bumps of life and one that is beyond normal, I won't have access to that kind of training.

But if I had limitless resources, I would do 4 hour lessons 5 days a week.


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