Tacky rubbers recommendations

[brokenball]

As I can see, you are just imagining things 😏

Do a normal pure backspin serve, which can generate more spin, tacky rubber or non-tacky rubber?

Show me an equation that shows that tacky rubbers are spinnier.

When doing a ghost serve using non tacky rubber, you toss the ball straight up and move the paddle horizontally quickly face up. When the ball touches the rubber the rubber there is no force so there is no friction but eventually the friction builds to the point that the ball grips. The time for the ball to grip takes microseconds, normally.
If the ball is not tossed high enough the ball will not grip as quickly are maybe not at all but if the serves are tossed at legal height the ball should grip quickly.

Tacky rubbers will grip without much mechanical friction and maybe with no "mechanical" friction at all. A tacky rubber may grip even with a low illegal toss.

Take this to the extreme. Put a ball a horizontal non-tacky rubber and try to serve with the paddle horizontal and a horizontal motion. Since there is little downward force, only the weight of the ball, the frictional force is low. The ball will just roll off the paddle as the paddle moves forward.

Try this with a tacky rubber and the ball will move forwards and with some back spin. There will be more spin because now there is the small frictional force and the tacky force applied to the bottom of the ball.

I think this is intuitive. BUT!!!!! That is not what really happens during a serve and the frictional grip or tackiness is not what makes a rubber spinny.

The frictional force is equal to the normal force x coefficient of friction. The normal force increases at the ball penetrates the rubber so the frictional force does too. Also, there is a big difference between static and dynamic friction. Once the angular velocity ball is low relative to the top sheet the friction increases.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction

When serving with non-tacky rubber, the ball must be tossed high enough so the ball will impact the rubber with enough force so the frictional force will cause the rubber to grip the ball. How high to toss the ball is the trick because if you toss it too high the ball will bounce high but at least it grips quickly. A low toss may not be legal and it may not hit the rubber with enough force to cause enough frictional force to grip.

If the spin was only determined by friction or tackiness then all the rubbers would generate be the same spin since the difference between when the ball grips is very small or none. In this case the surface of the ball would just move with the paddle. What truly makes the rubber spinny is the fact that at contact, the stretches the rubber a little across the face of the rubber and when the rubber snaps back, it adds extra tangential force/speed to the ball causing more spin.

 

[merlin el mago]

No one said only brush, you just made that up. I mentioned in a previous comment that every shot in TT is a mix of brush and hit, it’s just which is more, and to get the most spin on a pure back spin serve, that is short and close to the net, you need to have mostly brush, not mostly hit.

Serving you can't only hit the ball frontally or moving down or horizontally the bat when contact the ball.

 

[DukeGaGa]

M

Thin brush or thick brush?

More brush than hit, and in the back spin serve scenario, let’s say 80-90% brush, 10-20% hit.

Show me an equation that shows that tacky rubbers are spinnier.

When doing a ghost serve using non tacky rubber, you toss the ball straight up and move the paddle horizontally quickly face up. When the ball touches the rubber the rubber there is no force so there is no friction but eventually the friction builds to the point that the ball grips. The time for the ball to grip takes microseconds, normally.
If the ball is not tossed high enough the ball will not grip as quickly are maybe not at all but if the serves are tossed at legal height the ball should grip quickly.

Tacky rubbers will grip without much mechanical friction and maybe with no "mechanical" friction at all. A tacky rubber may grip even with a low illegal toss.

Take this to the extreme. Put a ball a horizontal non-tacky rubber and try to serve with the paddle horizontal and a horizontal motion. Since there is little downward force, only the weight of the ball, the frictional force is low. The ball will just roll off the paddle as the paddle moves forward.

Try this with a tacky rubber and the ball will move forwards and with some back spin. There will be more spin because now there is the small frictional force and the tacky force applied to the bottom of the ball.

I think this is intuitive. BUT!!!!! That is not what really happens during a serve and the frictional grip or tackiness is not what makes a rubber spinny.

The frictional force is equal to the normal force x coefficient of friction. The normal force increases at the ball penetrates the rubber so the frictional force does too. Also, there is a big difference between static and dynamic friction. Once the angular velocity ball is low relative to the top sheet the friction increases.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction

When serving with non-tacky rubber, the ball must be tossed high enough so the ball will impact the rubber with enough force so the frictional force will cause the rubber to grip the ball. How high to toss the ball is the trick because if you toss it too high the ball will bounce high but at least it grips quickly. A low toss may not be legal and it may not hit the rubber with enough force to cause enough frictional force to grip.

If the spin was only determined by friction or tackiness then all the rubbers would generate be the same spin since the difference between when the ball grips is very small or none. In this case the surface of the ball would just move with the paddle. What truly makes the rubber spinny is the fact that at contact, the stretches the rubber a little across the face of the rubber and when the rubber snaps back, it adds extra tangential force/speed to the ball causing more spin.

here we go again with broken balls , go ahead with your physics lesson then.

 

[merlin el mago]

Serving make the motion of the bat from down to up also tangentially and in place of contact the ball the side far the table contact the ball in the side between the ball and the table, that requires skill because the ball goes up but with strong back spin, the tricky is to calculate the first rebound near the net, if you do well with proper technique you can get when the 2nd rebound is done at the other side of the net the 3rd rebound comes to your side of the net.

 

[NextLevel]

Sounds like you’re contracting yourself again, your “thick contact” sounds like it is just brushing for everyone else, but you also call it hitting, so what do you call actual hitting? Bump? Slap?

Also let’s make it clear, when I say brush, I mean the force applied on to the ball is mostly tangential. And when I say hit, I mean the force applied on to the ball is mostly through the center of the ball.

Let's make it clearer. Do you think the ratio is the same when seriving with a non- tacky rubber and if not, what would be the ratios of brush and hit using a non-tacky rubber to get the same effect?

 

[NextLevel]

M

More brush than hit, and in the back spin serve scenario, let’s say 80-90% brush, 10-20% hit.

here we go again with broken balls , go ahead with your physics lesson then.

So what would be the ratios with a non-tacky rubber?

 

[DukeGaGa]

So what would be the ratios with a non-tacky rubber?

Let's make it clearer. Do you think the ratio is the same when seriving with a non- tacky rubber and if not, what would be the ratios of brush and hit using a non-tacky rubber to get the same effect?

You're once again trying to put words in others mouth here, I never said that ratio is for tacky rubber, nor did I say it's a fact or a set ratio, I'm just giving an example of what it means to be more brush than hit.

Anyways, I had a good time playing at the club this afternoon, and I've lost interest in this thread since I'm more interested in playing with the new Glayzer 09c.

 

[brokenball]

The big difference between tacky and non-tacky rubbers is that the balls will grip with a much lower normal impact speed than with non-tacky rubbers. Most of the time the difference is little but when brushing the normal impact speed is low. I have sometimes felt like the ball has slid of my rubber when playing with non-tacky rubber and brushing thinly to try to achieve a slow but spinny loop. I also feel that sometimes the when receiving serves that I banana flip to thinly and the ball slides off my paddle when playing with non-tacky rubbers.

The Tieffenbacher pdf addresses some of the differences between tacky and non-tacky rubbers

A key point to remember is that it isn't the tack or lack of it that makes a rubber spinny. It is how the top sheet stretches and snaps back that make a difference. The sponge must allow the top sheet to stretch and snap back.

here we go again with broken balls , go ahead with your physics lesson then.

Was there something wrong with the link I posted? It is good stuff.
There are a lot of good videos on YouTube about friction and physics in general. You should watch a few.
It is better to listen and learn than repeat the myths I have seen on TT forums for years now.

 

[ersthwil]

@brokenball I'm a little confused. You state:

balls will grip with a much lower normal impact speed than with non-tacky rubbers

Cool, I follow and buy that. Tracks with my own experience fiddling with H3/T05/D09c. But then you say:

it isn't the tack or lack of it that makes a rubber spinny. It is how the top sheet stretches and snaps back that make a difference

And this is where I'm confused. If the balls grip with lower normal impact speed, then at those speeds the tacky rubber is "spinnier" no? If I'm not misunderstanding, then I think the fact that tacky rubbers can/do grip/produce spin at lower impacts would, for most people, suggest a "spinnier" rubber. Not saying that's true for all shots/all rubbers, but this tracks with my experience. I can generate a lot of spin on very thin contact brush loops with H3, but I had a lot more problems doing the same thing with 09c. Despite 09c being considered "spinnier" than T05, I also had an easier time with those shots with T05. Note that I am not saying that T05 is spinnier, merely that for this type of shot and for my technique, I produce better results with H3/T05 compared to D09c.

 

[dingyibvs]

If you had said tacky rubbers can generate more spin on backspin serves, but they require more effort to get that spin, no one would be arguing with you. You seemed to imply that using similar serving motions, it is easier to get more spin on a backspin serve with a tacky rubber, and the point is that the physical effort to get a spinnier backspin serve with tacky rubber is more. Merlin was talking about the effort and physical contacts, you haven't made it clear whether you agree that backspin serves with tacky rubber require more physical effort to get good spin than with non-tacky rubbers.

If you slow spin with tacky rubber, the effort required to get really heavy spin is more than a relaxed stroke with non-tacky rubbers. This is because tack/stickness, while it increases friction, also can also work against ball separation and surface/sponge elasticity in adding rotation to the ball. Tack tends to be better for stopping and controlling heavy amounts of spin than generating it easily. To summarize, tack is not just more friction, tack also means slower ball separation and can hurt elasticity, thereby requiring more physical effort to overcome it and generate spin.

I have to side with Duke here. The way I read his post he simply meant that for any given player, you can generate more spin with a tacky rubber. In fact, in reading his other posts he seems to imply that this is the case BECAUSE the tacky rubber allows you to use MORE effort (i.e. thicker brush, which can often be caused by more effort, which in turn would more likely to lead to long services with a non-tacky rubber).

Broken ball's physics lesson is useless for the real world as is often the case. He seems to often assume laboratory scenarios where there is perfect control of a racket's action. The point here is that humans have a limit in our ability to control our muscles, and tacky rubbers can increase the margin of error for anyone, in this case more aggressive strokes in services.

 

[NextLevel]

I have to side with Duke here. The way I read his post he simply meant that for any given player, you can generate more spin with a tacky rubber. In fact, in reading his other posts he seems to imply that this is the case BECAUSE the tacky rubber allows you to use MORE effort (i.e. thicker brush, which can often be caused by more effort, which in turn would more likely to lead to long services with a non-tacky rubber).

Broken ball's physics lesson is useless for the real world as is often the case. He seems to often assume laboratory scenarios where there is perfect control of a racket's action. The point here is that humans have a limit in our ability to control our muscles, and tacky rubbers can increase the margin of error for anyone, in this case more aggressive strokes in services.

Then why is there disagreement with Merlin's statement that getting this extra spin requires more effort and thicker contact, especially because most tacky rubber requires harder sponge and tack makes getting ball separation harder?

I think you missed the main point here - everyone other than Duke who said that tacky rubbers generated more spin had absolutely no problem saying that this was because they allowed you to use more energy. Find where Duke clearly agrees with this and then we can close this out.

There is a reason why zeio said they were both right. But Duke tried to argue that the dynamic doesn't apply to serving short backspin to which I can only politely shake my head.

 

[dingyibvs]

Then why is there disagreement with Merlin's statement that getting this extra spin requires more effort and thicker contact, especially because most tacky rubber requires harder sponge and tack makes getting ball separation harder?

I think you missed the main point here - everyone other than Duke who said that tacky rubbers generated more spin had absolutely no problem saying that this was because they allowed you to use more energy. Find where Duke clearly agrees with this and then we can close this out.

There is a reason why zeio said they were both right. But Duke tried to argue that the dynamic doesn't apply to serving short backspin to which I can only politely shake my head.

I think it's because he made a mountain out of a mole hill when Merlin used the word "hit" to describe a "thick brush". I'm not sure why he took special offense to that, because it seemed to me fairly obvious that Merlin just meant a thicker brush. Then Merlin took offense to the way Duke reacted, and what we ended up getting is two people looking for differences rather than an agreement. I also think zeio is right in that they're both right, they're really arguing about something they agree with.

In fact, I think we are all in agreement here, except for broken ball of course. He's always wrong.

 

[NextLevel]

I think it's because he made a mountain out of a mole hill when Merlin used the word "hit" to describe a "thick brush". I'm not sure why he took special offense to that, because it seemed to me fairly obvious that Merlin just meant a thicker brush. Then Merlin took offense to the way Duke reacted, and what we ended up getting is two people looking for differences rather than an agreement. I also think zeio is right in that they're both right, they're really arguing about something they agree with.

In fact, I think we are all in agreement here, except for broken ball of course. He's always wrong.

We agree on substance but the motives for not admitting that even a backspin serve with tacky rubber requires more effort than a backspin serve with non-tacky rubber are not entirely innocent if you trace the argument. In the end, we don't gain much from these arguments over what words mean, what we want is knowledge that might help us improve our TT.

Back when I started playing TT in 2011, I ordered a paddle with Juic 999 Turbo on both sides since Paddle Palace rated it extremely highly for speed and spin. This was a hybrid tacky rubber back then and since my coach then didn't know how to teach me to use it, and he felt non-tacky rubbers had more potential, I later resold the paddle to a club mate. So even discussing the differences between what spin and speed ratings mean in the context of tacky and non-tacky rubbers can be helpful to someone who is confused by the concept.

 

[IB66]

If we are taking about a heavy backspin serve like a ‘ghost’ serve.
then the blade is flat, meaning a fine brushing of the ball is needed, regardless.

As always it’s a trade off when comparing Tacky or Grippy bouncy rubbers.

I’ve just put R48 (FH) on one of a pair of blades I have, the other has Rakza Z EH on the FH (tacky but not as tacky as H3 or H8-80) H8-80 was previously on the blade I put the R48 on.

What I feel, is that with the R48 I have to brush fine, with racket speed ‘a’
With Rakza Z EH, brush fine with racket speed ‘a’ and the ball won’t reach the net.
H8-80, with racket speed ‘a’ and it’s shorter than Rakza Z EH.

I can afford a slightly thicker contact with the H8-80 and still get reasonable backspin.

But we have the ‘NEED FOR SPIN’ (like the NEED FOR SPEED!!)

To use max racket speed to creat max spin, then the R48 has to be brushed finer than Rakza Z EH or H8-80, meaning touch and feel needs to be better, less margin for error, harder in general to get max backspin.
Having said that, when using max racket speed, timing and contact point is essential, so even though a slightly thicker contact with H8-80 may be possible, it’s still a case of less margin for error!!!

But when I have a successful very fine brush, very fast racket speed serve with any of them the results are near identical!!!

 

[blahness]

If we are taking about a heavy backspin serve like a ‘ghost’ serve.
then the blade is flat, meaning a fine brushing of the ball is needed, regardless.

As always it’s a trade off when comparing Tacky or Grippy bouncy rubbers.

I’ve just put R48 (FH) on one of a pair of blades I have, the other has Rakza Z EH on the FH (tacky but not as tacky as H3 or H8-80) H8-80 was previously on the blade I put the R48 on.

What I feel, is that with the R48 I have to brush fine, with racket speed ‘a’
With Rakza Z EH, brush fine with racket speed ‘a’ and the ball won’t reach the net.
H8-80, with racket speed ‘a’ and it’s shorter than Rakza Z EH.

I can afford a slightly thicker contact with the H8-80 and still get reasonable backspin.

But we have the ‘NEED FOR SPIN’ (like the NEED FOR SPEED!!)

To use max racket speed to creat max spin, then the R48 has to be brushed finer than Rakza Z EH or H8-80, meaning touch and feel needs to be better, less margin for error, harder in general to get max backspin.
Having said that, when using max racket speed, timing and contact point is essential, so even though a slightly thicker contact with H8-80 may be possible, it’s still a case of less margin for error!!!

But when I have a successful very fine brush, very fast racket speed serve with any of them the results are near identical!!!

Imo the huge benefit of tacky rubbers is precisely that - you don't need such a thin brush to create very high spin/speed ratios of the outgoing ball. I think a lot of ppl don't realise that thin brush is more prone to timing errors than thick brush, and this is where tacky rubbers shine. This is especially advantageous for shots where length control is important (for eg short serves and short pushes, but also for delicate stuff like looping half long serves). Of course the problem is that it works against you when you want more speed in your shots, this is where use of the body and good weight transfer is essential for aggressive shots like loopkilling with tacky rubbers. But it's possible to have good length control with nontacky rubbers too - for eg Truls Moregardh has an incredible short game...

The other thing is that there's significant differences even between different non tacky rubbers - for eg Dignics 05 has a lot more spin generation potential compared to any other non tacky ESNs I've tried - there's somehow some Butterfly magic that makes it happen which I'm unsure of. I think we're probably missing quite a few factors here in our knowledge.

 

[brokenball]

So many opinions and no facts.
The main benefit of tacky rubber is that you can brush more thinly and still grip the ball.
Once the ball is gripped then that part of the ball will travel at the same speed as the topsheet..
If the top sheet stretches and snaps back there will be more spin than if the if the topsheet and sponge don't stretch and snap back.

 

[blahness]

Hurricane 8-80. Very tacky, doesn't need boosting, cheaper than most hybrids, throw might be higher than you want but worth a try.

I wish there was like a 39 deg Hurricane 8-80 - it'll be the perfect tacky FH rubber which works without boosting. But unfortunately 38 is all they can go up to, so that is what I'm using. Can't complain too much though - it is a really excellent spin monster (even coming from D09c the ultimate spin monster) . Not sure what else DHS has in store in the future for good tacky rubbers that don't require boosting.

 

[NextLevel]

If we are taking about a heavy backspin serve like a ‘ghost’ serve.
then the blade is flat, meaning a fine brushing of the ball is needed, regardless.

As always it’s a trade off when comparing Tacky or Grippy bouncy rubbers.

I’ve just put R48 (FH) on one of a pair of blades I have, the other has Rakza Z EH on the FH (tacky but not as tacky as H3 or H8-80) H8-80 was previously on the blade I put the R48 on.

What I feel, is that with the R48 I have to brush fine, with racket speed ‘a’
With Rakza Z EH, brush fine with racket speed ‘a’ and the ball won’t reach the net.
H8-80, with racket speed ‘a’ and it’s shorter than Rakza Z EH.

I can afford a slightly thicker contact with the H8-80 and still get reasonable backspin.

But we have the ‘NEED FOR SPIN’ (like the NEED FOR SPEED!!)

To use max racket speed to creat max spin, then the R48 has to be brushed finer than Rakza Z EH or H8-80, meaning touch and feel needs to be better, less margin for error, harder in general to get max backspin.
Having said that, when using max racket speed, timing and contact point is essential, so even though a slightly thicker contact with H8-80 may be possible, it’s still a case of less margin for error!!!

But when I have a successful very fine brush, very fast racket speed serve with any of them the results are near identical!!!

I hear what you are saying, I think the details need to be tested out. The main thing for me is that I get more spin if I brush thinly with non-tacky rubbers, I am just not as consistent in controlling the ball using them. For me, the main strength of tacky rubbers is how they stop the spin, they let me put my own spin signature on almost any ball while I stay close to the table, with non-tacky rubber I have to back off as they don't stop spin as drastically. Of course, maybe if I started in the womb like Truls or Felix, this would not be as much of an issue. I have never thought of tacky rubbers so much as spin monsters I think of them as control and power monsters - again, I am speaking mostly for myself and engaging in dialogue here - one of the things about this game is that how you feel may not be reality, but it might help someone who sees things as you do play better, even if your philosophy is entirely wrong when the science looks at it.

 

[mocker88]

I wish there was like a 39 deg Hurricane 8-80 - it'll be the perfect tacky FH rubber which works without boosting. But unfortunately 38 is all they can go up to, so that is what I'm using. Can't complain too much though - it is a really excellent spin monster (even coming from D09c the ultimate spin monster) . Not sure what else DHS has in store in the future for good tacky rubbers that don't require boosting.

I haven't tried it yet, but perhaps you should look into the Hurricane 9 Pink version in 38deg?

 

[blahness]

I haven't tried it yet, but perhaps you should look into the Hurricane 9 Pink version in 38deg?

The reviews of Hurricane 9 were very negative as it's only semi tacky and not spin rich to boot. I think I'll probably pass on it.