Technique advice for me

[blahness]

Agree. Attacking after heavy side spin serves takes time and a practice, because balls that are coming back often kinda weird trajectory and for amateur it’s not so easy to execute them. But i was able to adapt with time, i bet @dingyibvs will do it to 🙂

Most of good level amateurs serves under spin mostly, rarely mixing it with no spin. Relying on stability of their third ball attack.
But as we see, @dingyibvs not trying to find a simple way - he is going his own way, and training the way he can, in those circumstances that he is. Let’s give him respect for that 💪🏼

Low trajectory no spin serves can be quite killer because it's hard to produce a nasty receive off them - because of the lack of spin to borrow on the pushes. With sidespin serves one can go against the spin or with the spin, and you can easily vary between producing sidetop or sideunder for the receives which can pose some huge difficulties for the server if he doesn't read the receive spin properly. For someone like dingyibvs he could serve no spin the majority of time to set-up his very strong 3rd ball FH attack, with the actual heavy backspin as an occasional variation to keep opponents honest. Tbh you don't even need heavy backspin, it just needs to have some underspin with almost the same movement.

 

[SleepyMaster]

Low trajectory no spin serves can be quite killer because it's hard to produce a nasty receive off them - because of the lack of spin to borrow on the pushes. With sidespin serves one can go against the spin or with the spin, and you can easily vary between producing sidetop or sideunder for the receives which can pose some huge difficulties for the server if he doesn't read the receive spin properly. For someone like dingyibvs he could serve no spin the majority of time to set-up his very strong 3rd ball FH attack, with the actual heavy backspin as an occasional variation to keep opponents honest. Tbh you don't even need heavy backspin, it just needs to have some underspin with almost the same movement.

I don’t disagree, even the opposite - as i told, i agree with you. Sidespins kinda tricky one, especially when you not paying attention for how your opponent receiving them

 

[dingyibvs]

I somehow think that pure underspin/no spin serves (no sidespin) suits your game more as it simplifies the spin on the receive. It seems that the sidespin hurts you more than it helps you especially in the hands of a skilled receiver. Attacking with your strong FH loop off a no spin serve seems much more suited to your FH loopkill style. Ma Lin, Hugo Calderano uses this to great effect.

For me I love serving with heavy sidespin (be it side under or side top) because it feeds my chiquita and slow spinny loop very well. But I feel like if you drive a lot, incoming receives with lots of sidespin can cause a lot of errors.

Furthermore, you train on the robot off balls without sidespin - ie you're not looping sideunderspin or sidetopspin, but more pure underspin or pure topspin - so serving without sidespin is going to help you get balls more similar to what you train against on the robot.

Actually the robot has a lot of sidespin due to the deflector mechanism it uses to direct the balls. I think other people who've used the Amicus or Power Pong series of robots have the same issue. I have to add strong sidespin to the ball to cancel it out somewhat, but since the spin isn't consistent the combination of the robot's sidespin and the sidespin I add means there's randomly some left or some right sidespin.

I'm not too worried about robot training translating into games. I'm 100% confident that it will. A tool's utility depends on the hand of the user, it's really no different than rubbers and blades. I'll find a way for it to work for me. Now that I'm gonna start applying my training in earnest, I'm sure I'll suffer a dip in my playing level first before I break through, but I'll make that breakthrough.

 

[Der_Echte]

Did you notice that you drift back after bh shots? Or is it the camera beind wide or me being Mr magoo?

 

[dingyibvs]

Low trajectory no spin serves can be quite killer because it's hard to produce a nasty receive off them - because of the lack of spin to borrow on the pushes. With sidespin serves one can go against the spin or with the spin, and you can easily vary between producing sidetop or sideunder for the receives which can pose some huge difficulties for the server if he doesn't read the receive spin properly. For someone like dingyibvs he could serve no spin the majority of time to set-up his very strong 3rd ball FH attack, with the actual heavy backspin as an occasional variation to keep opponents honest. Tbh you don't even need heavy backspin, it just needs to have some underspin with almost the same movement.

Great minds think alike! I actually already serve a ton of no spins. You see all the balls the penholder popped up or returned off the table? Those are all no spin serves. I hardly ever serve topspins against him, because he's really good at recognizing them and punching them right at me, like that point at 2:38.

No spin mixed with heavy back is exactly my primary strategy with my regular pendulum serve, though I do mix in some topspins and sidespins against other players who are not as good at receiving them. My long services are primarily of the no spin variety as well. I'm actually just starting to learn how to serve fast backspin and topspin services. I haven't quite grasped yet how to do both at the same time, as most of the times I just end up serving a long backspin/topspin serve that's not particularly fast and get attacked easily.

 

[dingyibvs]

Did you notice that you drift back after bh shots? Or is it the camera beind wide or me being Mr magoo?

I'm not sure, to be honest when a ball comes to my BH my mind kind of just goes blank My body is doing one thing while my brain is saying "wait, stop, you should attack that", and then the point is over before I realize what's happened.

It's going to be a point of focus now in both my training and game play to attack everything long to my BH. I'm gonna lose a lot of points for being overly aggressive and just not being very good on the BH side, but in my experience over compensation is the quickest way to correct something.

 

[Der_Echte]

It looked like you hit ur bh and drifted back... that isn't gunna kill you vs the countering or fast blocking crowd, but anyone with a soft block is gunna make you miss the next bh.

 

[Der_Echte]

On serves, my best is no spin... but I must set the stage early with a heavy underspin to get them to want to open their bat.

 

[dingyibvs]

It looked like you hit ur bh and drifted back... that isn't gunna kill you vs the countering or fast blocking crowd, but anyone with a soft block is gunna make you miss the next bh.

Yes, I tried to pay attention to it today at the club and I did notice that. I do that for the FH side too, because I want to have the option of getting a big FH in. When the block comes back to the BH side I've learned to step in if it's high, or be patient and wait for the ball to come to me and then brush loop if it's low. I used to get too impatient and try to reach forward with my arm and I would miss a lot of shots. That habit still creeps in often when I'm not paying attention, so it's still an area I'm working on.

 

[dingyibvs]

So I had another practice session vs. Bill today. He doesn't loop much so it was mostly me doing FH loops and us doing BH counters. We then did a practice similar to the last time where only I served. I was doing a lot better on this one, so we decided to play a practice match. Here's the video of the part where I served. I'll upload the practice match later, but for whatever reason only 3 sets were recorded.

 

[dingyibvs]

Here's the practice match. Bill offers me something other players in the club can't really offer. It's a bit hard to see in the video but he does a lot of no spin and side spin pushes, most people just push with backspin. He also does a lot of hitting, which is tough for me to deal with. I try to be aggressive with my BH against his services, but he really punishes me when I don't return with good quality, and even when I do get a bit of quality to my BH loops it's often not threatening enough to him. Against other players they usually passively block when I BH loop to their BH, which allows me to continue the attack. Against him I need to be prepared for a very quick counter.

 

[Der_Echte]

Was he as 888 today?

 

[dingyibvs]

Was he as 888 today?

I don't think he plays there.

 

[hclnnkhg]

Here's the practice match. Bill offers me something other players in the club can't really offer. It's a bit hard to see in the video but he does a lot of no spin and side spin pushes, most people just push with backspin. He also does a lot of hitting, which is tough for me to deal with. I try to be aggressive with my BH against his services, but he really punishes me when I don't return with good quality, and even when I do get a bit of quality to my BH loops it's often not threatening enough to him. Against other players they usually passively block when I BH loop to their BH, which allows me to continue the attack. Against him I need to be prepared for a very quick counter.

If you really want to win, maybe you should exploit his footwork and wide FH a bit more. Or even just push long back to his BH since he doesn't really attack those.

 

[dingyibvs]

If you really want to win, maybe you should exploit his footwork and wide FH a bit more. Or even just push long back to his BH since he doesn't really attack those.

I want to win, but I also want to do so in a certain style. Specifically, I want to attack everything that comes long, and most that don't as well 😂. I basically want the long push to be a surprise attack, otherwise I'd only want to push short or half long. I haven't achieved that goal, obviously, it's just so damn hard to remember to be aggressive on the BH side. I've gotten better at it, but my first instinct when something comes to my BH side is still to reach out my arm to either push or block, rather than back swing to get ready to attack. That still contributes a lot to my errors on the BH side in real game situations, and IMO is still a big part of why I can't be as consistent with my BH attack in games as I can in practice.

 

[hclnnkhg]

I want to win, but I also want to do so in a certain style. Specifically, I want to attack everything that comes long, and most that don't as well 😂. I basically want the long push to be a surprise attack, otherwise I'd only want to push short or half long. I haven't achieved that goal, obviously, it's just so damn hard to remember to be aggressive on the BH side. I've gotten better at it, but my first instinct when something comes to my BH side is still to reach out my arm to either push or block, rather than back swing to get ready to attack. That still contributes a lot to my errors on the BH side in real game situations, and IMO is still a big part of why I can't be as consistent with my BH attack in games as I can in practice.

Yes I thought so, this mindset is quite common. In that case you can still try to do more DTL return, and/or vary the spin and pace of your BH attack to make it more difficult for your opponent - slow and spinny tends to work well against non-aggressive TBH block. The crossover is also a good place to attack; I'd assume he prefers to return those with his BH.

 

[blahness]

Here's the practice match. Bill offers me something other players in the club can't really offer. It's a bit hard to see in the video but he does a lot of no spin and side spin pushes, most people just push with backspin. He also does a lot of hitting, which is tough for me to deal with. I try to be aggressive with my BH against his services, but he really punishes me when I don't return with good quality, and even when I do get a bit of quality to my BH loops it's often not threatening enough to him. Against other players they usually passively block when I BH loop to their BH, which allows me to continue the attack. Against him I need to be prepared for a very quick counter.

Wow that FH performance in that game is better than mine already 😂 What a bomb! You've tightened the serve movement and the FH loop a lot it seems, which is giving you some amazing consistency and quality. I can see your arm movement is a lot smaller now and a very body focused stroke which is what makes it's power.

Tbh if you had a slightly better BH game you would have destroyed him easily.

You pretty much just have a straight BH push and a loop which is way too few options at the moment.

If you're good at serving BH pendulum I would highly recommend complicating it a bit by using the BH fade receive which is almost an identical movement as the BH pendulum serve.

If you learn the BH tomahawk/hook serve you'll have the BH chopblock receive at your disposal.

Penholders dislike wide angle shots so you can use both sidespins to really increase the angle for them.

The other thing you could learn is the use of the fingers to enhance your BH loop. So the idea is that your thumb and index finger are two lever arms. You can press using the middle joint of the thumb on the BH rubber to turn it and spin the ball, and stop the movement with your index finger (a bit like snapping fingers). You can use this mechanism for the chiquita too. So what you can do is the same as what you do for looping half long serves on FH - roll a ball towards the edge of the table, and use your fingers alone to rotate the bat and spin the ball up. In my experience this was actually one of the most important lessons in the BH loop, because once you realise how easy it is to create topspin, you no longer need a big arm backswing at all and can directly power the BH with weight transfer.

The use of the fingers in this way is also the secret to the chiquita - it allows you to overcome even heavy backspin easy peasy.

 

[Der_Echte]

Bill can HIT a ball that is a little high that has light spin, but he push returns EVERYTHING that has enough underspin, is low enough... and also to his middle.

You DO NOT need to attack the first long ball (especially his serve) if you are not in position ready and read it... push back low and spinny enough and you will get a much better ball to spin up...

You did that a few times and won the point every time.

 

[dingyibvs]

Bill can HIT a ball that is a little high that has light spin, but he push returns EVERYTHING that has enough underspin, is low enough... and also to his middle.

You DO NOT need to attack the first long ball (especially his serve) if you are not in position ready and read it... push back low and spinny enough and you will get a much better ball to spin up...

You did that a few times and won the point every time.

Yes, in fact my loop is threatening enough to him that he makes a good amount of errors when pushing as he tries to make sure the quality (location, height, length, etc.) is perfect. With that said, I'm trying to attack everything that comes long as long pushes will get punished by better players and I want to practice my opening loop and re-loop.

There are only 2 regulars in the club who have a league rating above me, and I think I can beat both of them if I change my tactics. Against Bill I've seen many times how others play him exactly the way you described, which is push long to his BH side and wait for an opportunity to attack, and they give him a lot of trouble for it. The other player is a better attacker, but has a better service than Bill. Against him if I play more conservatively in my service receive I can beat him in a rally. He loops rather than flat hits, which makes it a lot easier for me to deal with. Again though, I feel like playing that way would get punished against higher level players, so I'm trying to stay aggressive. I want my BH to be more like my FH, never pushing anything long.

In that vein, what do you guys think I can do to improve my readiness to loop on the BH side? Should I simply develop a quicker and more instinctive backswing, or should I change my ready stance to be more BH favored? Despite my practices, I still feel very unconfident when a ball comes to my BH side, especially a backspin. Even when I have enough time to think about the attack I still tighten up and execute poorly much more often than I'd like. When a player can change the spin too e.g. with no spin or side spin pushes or even flicks, it's even worse.

 

[dingyibvs]

Wow that FH performance in that game is better than mine already 😂 What a bomb! You've tightened the serve movement and the FH loop a lot it seems, which is giving you some amazing consistency and quality. I can see your arm movement is a lot smaller now and a very body focused stroke which is what makes it's power.

Tbh if you had a slightly better BH game you would have destroyed him easily.

You pretty much just have a straight BH push and a loop which is way too few options at the moment.

If you're good at serving BH pendulum I would highly recommend complicating it a bit by using the BH fade receive which is almost an identical movement as the BH pendulum serve.

If you learn the BH tomahawk/hook serve you'll have the BH chopblock receive at your disposal.

Penholders dislike wide angle shots so you can use both sidespins to really increase the angle for them.

The other thing you could learn is the use of the fingers to enhance your BH loop. So the idea is that your thumb and index finger are two lever arms. You can press using the middle joint of the thumb on the BH rubber to turn it and spin the ball, and stop the movement with your index finger (a bit like snapping fingers). You can use this mechanism for the chiquita too. So what you can do is the same as what you do for looping half long serves on FH - roll a ball towards the edge of the table, and use your fingers alone to rotate the bat and spin the ball up. In my experience this was actually one of the most important lessons in the BH loop, because once you realise how easy it is to create topspin, you no longer need a big arm backswing at all and can directly power the BH with weight transfer.

The use of the fingers in this way is also the secret to the chiquita - it allows you to overcome even heavy backspin easy peasy.

I think on the FH side my improvement is mostly in being certain when I should use my FH. A quicker reaction helps immensely. On the BH side I see my biggest issue as a lack of quick reaction. While I've improved in knowing when to use my BH, I still am not reacting quickly enough to know when to attack, push, or block. I think I need to improve on that before I can work further on technique improvement. I know my current technique is much better than what I can execute right now, so I really need to work on my mindset.

Maybe what I'll do is to do some mixed topspin/backspin FH/BH exercises. I'll start simple and then ramp up.

The other thing is that I just signed up for a tournament in a little over 2 weeks! It'll be my first tournament in like 10+ years. Not sure if @Littledragonman7 or @Der_Echte can come, it's in San Carlos. So I'm putting technical improvements on pause right now and work more on applying what I know.

I only signed up for one event as I don't know what my stamina can handle right now. Last week during league play I played 5 matches in 2 hours, almost no break in between as many of my matches went to 5 sets with numerous long sets so people were always waiting for me to finish. I was so exhausted by the end and really struggled to finish the 5th match. Luckily it was against the worst player in the group, and I toughed up for the last set to finish with a win.
Maybe it was because I had a long practice session the day before, I'm not sure. I think later this year I'll be able to handle 2 events for sure. Since I got the robot in mid-November, besides the times I took a couple of trips I haven't had a day where my legs aren't sore. My cardiovascular endurance has improved much more quickly, probably from playing soccer, so my legs and shoulder are the ones holding me back from higher intensity in my training right now.