Technique discussion fh topspin

[Der_Echte]

but I got told if you give them heavy backspin push and they open up that ball, that means they had to overwrite the backspin that you gave them. Let's assume you gave them a lot of backspin so if they open up they have slightly more as a topspin now that you will struggle to block.

Like that information changed my game in a way that I sometimes give them light backspin so if they loop I can block it easier since I struggle more against slow spinny loops more.

Then I tried spinsight a year ago or so. And they said you generate the most topspin on a block ball and not vs underspin because against backspin you have to overwrite the backspin that is on the ball so achieving max spin is not possible.

So I got confused even more. Like what should I do then?

Hey @Zezima I understand where you come from... BUT... IF... you can make a very fast bat (by getting hips down and do a down and up and forward powerfully timed explosion, you will EASILY make extreme heavy topspin that will baffle players many levels above you. Stay loose with shoulder, arm and wrist, then explode and use FINGERS at moment of impact, you will be a boss of topspin when you want.

 

[Der_Echte]

haha it was in his first club so can not get take so much credit. I did learn thought that getting good at tabletennis really have a lot with conditions and many times som advantages i think. Really hard probably just to work very hard, need the correct conditions and help.

Lula has told this story several times over the years and it is useful to tell it often. Lula is a real TT player and under-appreciated here.

 

[Yurifi]

haha it was in his first club so can not get take so much credit. I did learn thought that getting good at tabletennis really have a lot with conditions and many times som advantages i think. Really hard probably just to work very hard, need the correct conditions and help.

yeah, but you laid the foundation which is a very important part of table tennis ... this is a part where I struggle a lot as a coach, but can work with kids that already have some basics and then work from then on. but I can tell you - if basics are off - it is sooooo much more work ... so you probably did something right there ... 😉

 

[Zezima]

Hey @Zezima I understand where you come from... BUT... IF... you can make a very fast bat (by getting hips down and do a down and up and forward powerfully timed explosion, you will EASILY make extreme heavy topspin that will baffle players many levels above you. Stay loose with shoulder, arm and wrist, then explode and use FINGERS at moment of impact, you will be a boss of topspin when you want.

I don't know if you mean something else but what more can I do with legs in that video? I was getting the maximum out of my legs there. Only thing that can be better are my arm movement.

Also the fingers don't work for me. When I press with my pointy finger my thumb also presses into the blade at the same time otherwise it feels super off.

 

[jk1980]

Yes, but that is not necessarily a realistic feed and it usually isn't that hard to attack powerfully regardless.

I am really not a good or experienced feeder so i wanted to check my theory of achievable spin when feeding backspin on spinsight.
My way of feeding is mirroring what i saw other trainers do, that is having the ball drop on the table once and hit it after the drop in the rising phase.

With utilization of wrist i was able to generate 55 rps backspin on the first attempt which equals the beginning range of professional underspin serves (according to spinsight).
See this range


If i used a motion more closely to what is seen in Zezimas video where he was fed backspin balls it would be around 28 rps of underspin. Now take into account that i use H3 BS to feed, so for regular tensors it might differ a little.

I then tried the spinsight exercise "topspin against backspin" where i set my robot to -2 (Backspin) which results in a 35 rps backspin ball.
sidenote:If i chopped that ball hard (over the table) i would return about 48 rps of backspin.

These balls were setup to drop below table level at around 30cm from the table end, so one would need to be carefull not to hit the table (if you planned to go gung ho on them).

Looping it lazily and "spinny" (in a way that i would now i had around 95% success rate ) would land the ball in the middle of the opponents half (lengthwise) with these stats.



Hitbrushing it hard in an effort to kill it increased the spin just a little and the speed increased by over 40% but for me the success ratio dropped from 95% to around 70% heavily impacting placement/control.

These balls then landed on the last 10cm of the table with a shallower curve.

In a game i would probably only ever attempt these when i am standing correctly to the ball already and am afraid of the opponent smashing my "easy" loops.

I also tested the loop against topspin which proved that indeed with incoming topspin you will generate more topspin yourself. So depending on how much topspin arrived you will be able to "up" the topspin game a notch or too.

 

[Lula]

yeah, but you laid the foundation which is a very important part of table tennis ... this is a part where I struggle a lot as a coach, but can work with kids that already have some basics and then work from then on. but I can tell you - if basics are off - it is sooooo much more work ... so you probably did something right there ... 😉

I just coached him Fridays in his first club. I hope I helped him a little. He did multiballs a lot privately with current head coach of Sweden. He probably laid a nice foundation. But I find it impressive that they believed in the grip and the backhand punch short. Same coach contributed to why Falck have short pimple on his forehand. That is cool aswell. Almost no one plays like that, to be able to still believe it is awesome. Interesting to think if it is still a good idea to use different materials in today’s game. Probably some players would be better with other kind of rubbers than just backside.

 

[Yurifi]

So basically I am doing my c-license here in germany. We are told how to teach kids the specific strokes.

Fh-topspin:

He told us:
-against backspin your shoulder must not drop. It has to stay even.
-don't hide your elbow behind your back (what malong fzd and even some europeans do I think)
- not lifting the elbow. I thought I do it because I am quite tall and see omar assar doing it all the time. Yes his elbow goes forwards and the angle is 90° to his upperbody.
Then I watched ma longs video and he was doing it in almost every fh topspin. Basically his technique would be called wrong as hell if he was here. He does
All these 3 "big mistakes" that we should avoid doing.

Also we did multiball later ourselves.

I could achieve the same quality with a more open racket instead of closed like in this video. Which one should I stick with? My subconscious has the more closed racket programmed currently.
I do feel like I finally do the weight transfer right. My topspins are also very dangerous spinny and fast. People who watch my matches know me doing more slow arm only openers with the focus on slow spinny balls.

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[Yurifi]

I just coached him Fridays in his first club. I hope I helped him a little. He did multiballs a lot privately with current head coach of Sweden. He probably laid a nice foundation. But I find it impressive that they believed in the grip and the backhand punch short. Same coach contributed to why Falck have short pimple on his forehand. That is cool aswell. Almost no one plays like that, to be able to still believe it is awesome. Interesting to think if it is still a good idea to use different materials in today’s game. Probably some players would be better with other kind of rubbers than just backside.

well … I always believed you have to think outside of the box … with Falck and Truls, he most definitely did. 😉

 

[Zezima]

Crazy it took me so long to understand what it meant to have the elbow in front.

One more thing I would like to discuss is here I see levenko talking about twisting sideways with the hips. Many chinese videos say don't twist sideways but more like pull inwards if that makes sense. Basically you twist and store "energy" on your dominant leg so it's a side inwards rotation instead of pure sideways rotation.

I do have to admit, that trying to do the side and inwards rotation I end up more on my backfoot when accelerating forwards and also my shoulder goes up more. I am also slightly doing a standing up motion in comparison to if I would only focus on rotating the hips to the front.

I want to try it out today and see if I can get enough power but with the benefit of being more stable after my forehand topspin by just rotating my hips from sideways to the front instead of rotating inwards to the right pocket.

I will also experiment more with the distance to the ball when hitting the fhTs. If people want me to have a more relaxed straighter arm I think I need to build more distance to the ball. Right now it feels like I prefer to hit it closer to my body but that means I can't whip with a more straight arm and instead with something closer to 90° to my upperarm. Maybe that also solves my issue with not moving my right shoulder up too much. It also looks like I need to work on using the energy from the hip rotation more than just going from right leg to the left leg. Like I do in this point.

 

[songdavid98]

but I got told if you give them heavy backspin push and they open up that ball, that means they had to overwrite the backspin that you gave them. Let's assume you gave them a lot of backspin so if they open up they have slightly more as a topspin now that you will struggle to block.

This advice about heavy push is better against weak people like children.

Then I tried spinsight a year ago or so. And they said you generate the most topspin on a block ball and not vs underspin

Spinsight is correct.

Like what should I do then?

Do what your opponent hates.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Crazy it took me so long to understand what it meant to have the elbow in front.

One more thing I would like to discuss is here I see levenko talking about twisting sideways with the hips. Many chinese videos say don't twist sideways but more like pull inwards if that makes sense. Basically you twist and store "energy" on your dominant leg so it's a side inwards rotation instead of pure sideways rotation.

I do have to admit, that trying to do the side and inwards rotation I end up more on my backfoot when accelerating forwards and also my shoulder goes up more. I am also slightly doing a standing up motion in comparison to if I would only focus on rotating the hips to the front.

I want to try it out today and see if I can get enough power but with the benefit of being more stable after my forehand topspin by just rotating my hips from sideways to the front instead of rotating inwards to the right pocket.

I will also experiment more with the distance to the ball when hitting the fhTs. If people want me to have a more relaxed straighter arm I think I need to build more distance to the ball. Right now it feels like I prefer to hit it closer to my body but that means I can't whip with a more straight arm and instead with something closer to 90° to my upperarm. Maybe that also solves my issue with not moving my right shoulder up too much. It also looks like I need to work on using the energy from the hip rotation more than just going from right leg to the left leg. Like I do in this point.

Watch again and again the Andras Levenko video

Core stability ?? i don't know ... I see your upper body being losing its verticality but its also a footwork / placement issue imo.

open backswing ? not really... also a footwork placement issue. also many times it looks like your rotate around your shoulder and not elbow == angle between arm and forearm stays too constant during the swing. which also means you have less reach / space. don't know which is the cause, bad placement causes bad form or bad form habit makes you

explosiveness ? you're the younger player but it doesn't feel you're taking any advantage of it.

move more, relax more arm and hand, and feel your strong legs / body.