Tennis player talked about making a loss on the world circuit

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Interesting - 300k in income and still makes a loss.
and this is after sleeping on the floors, to save costs...

have to say, I have not known a Pro TT players that needs to sleep on the floor.

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PS. I know he isn't ranked high enough, but comparing income to expense, I was told Tennis players endure expense few folds of that of TT players.

 

[Sherpa]

I know a few people who have tried to make it on the tennis circuit and it is extremely difficult unless someone bankrolls you, either your national federation or some benefactor. It's a very cut throat world at the lower challenger level. A lot of promising players use the American college system to support their careers whilst gaining a degree.

 

[pong99]

This guy was WR 790 in Oct 2024, so not surprising that a random no-name top 800 player can't make a living. How pro are you if you are top 800?

#200 on the PGA money list for 2024 made about $100k. He probably lost more than the tennis guy.

In what pro sport can you be top 800 and expect to make a good living? These are called journeymen.

71 atp players made over $1 million in prize money in 2024, which doesn't include sponsorships, so lots of top tennis pros made a decent living

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

This guy was WR 790 in Oct 2024, so not surprising that a random no-name top 800 player can't make a living. How pro are you if you are top 800?

#200 on the PGA money list for 2024 made about $100k. He probably lost more than the tennis guy.

In what pro sport can you be top 800 and expect to make a good living? These are called journeymen.

71 atp players made over $1 million in prize money in 2024, which doesn't include sponsorships, so lots of top tennis pros made a decent living

I'm looking at the income 300k and can't break even.
What is the income breakeven then?
Tee higher the income, the higher the costs - ie, more trips to events etc etc.

1 million in prize money equates to how much expense?
you would likely need a bigger support staff with medical staff flying with too?

We tend to only glorify income, but we tend to forget about expenses and I'm not sure if ATP is the same, like CNT or JNT or even Taiwan, where half the team flies to events for free or the gov sends medical staff for you.

ATP I am assuming is mostly personal funding and not gov related? I don't even know how Taiwan's tennis star funding works.

It would be a very interesting case study if someone is knowledgeable about ATP for me to chat with, since i'm pretty knowledgeable on how WTT income/expense works.
As I said, I was told, it is very expensive to be even on ATP circuit.

PS, this is his career high ranking, which isn't good, but also isn't bad (doubles count right?)
Thomas Fancutt (born 25 February 1995) is an Australian tennis player. He has a career high ATP doubles ranking of world No. 107 achieved on 2 December 2024. He also has a career high singles ranking of No. 382 achieved on 22 May 2023.

Do you know what PGA say #100 makes?
#200 and making 100k seems low...

In TT, players make income from sponsorship.
WTT income is more for world ranking income/cost, unless your cost are covered by gov

 

[pong99]

PGA tour #100 2024 made $1.6 million, #1 made about $30 million

You must be top 125 from previous year to be an exempt player, exempt meaning you are exempt from qualifying for regular PGA events, you can enter as many as you like (majors are not included, they have their own rules for entry)

To be more precise #200 made $168k, #220 made $45k. These players are almost certainly non exempt players which means they can attempt to qualify for an event on Monday qualifying. Top few get to play in the tourney. Miss the tourney cut, which is usually around top 70ish + ties, you make zero money. So almost half the field in a regular PGA event make zero prize money.

Doubles tennis doesn't pay like singles.

US Open Tennis prize money

$3.6 million for singles winner, doubles $750,000 split by partners, first round losers split $25,000 (this is grand slam money, so most tour events are much lower)

Easy to see why a doubles team WR 107 doesn't make much $$$, WR107 team would have to get a top spot in the qualifier to get into the main draw. If you don't make it out of the qualifier, you get zero.

The very top tennis players usually travel with an entourage - coach, physio, hitting partner, etc.

 

[dingyibvs]

There are plenty of videos like that. I recently watched this one, for example. He's higher rated, within top 300, and also made nothing. @Tony's Table Tennis is right, you have to consider the expenses to play on the circuit as well. This guy is higher rated at within the top 300 and it still came out to be net negative $12k on the year.

 

[NetProphet]

This guy was WR 790 in Oct 2024, so not surprising that a random no-name top 800 player can't make a living. How pro are you if you are top 800?

#200 on the PGA money list for 2024 made about $100k. He probably lost more than the tennis guy.

In what pro sport can you be top 800 and expect to make a good living? These are called journeymen.

71 atp players made over $1 million in prize money in 2024, which doesn't include sponsorships, so lots of top tennis pros made a decent living

Yeah but the point isn't to share the story and expect you to be surprised, it's to share the story and put numbers to the struggle of thousands of players.
Your post is very 'tough crap' in sentiment but he's not looking for sympathy, he's just sharing a little known story of the dedication and journey these people have to make in order to have a chance.
And it's not just about him but thousands more over the years.
The journey and struggles for pros like him (trying to chase their dream) are little known because all the focus of the public, TV, sponsors etc is on the top 50 only.
But for every millionaire top 20 guy there are 100s of Tom Fancutts and they still deserve respect. They are what feeds the entire sport!

The fact that 300k a year (a good salary almost anywhere else) isn't enough to finance the professional possibility anymore is telling. It means you need half a mill plus per year to even have a chance, but it wasn't always like that.
Also, talking about rank 790/800 as if its nothing is a bit disrespectful and he peaked at much higher than that and still struggled financially. You have to make the journey to find out where you stand, nobody tells you before hand and most pros who make the top 50 are gonna have to pass through the 800-200 level first, unless your a prodigy at 18 and go straight to top and a 20m a year in contracts.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

What i am interested in is income vs expense. and then relate it to table tennis.
WTT prize money is low, but is higher than ITTF world tour/pro tour days.

The Chinese are winning most of the money, but few other have some good gains (thanks to so many non participation from CNT side in 2024). In the old days, it was also Chinese winning most of the events (Platinum series).

Today, there are way more events, but not all the big ones are won by Chinese (because they don't play all of them).
so having many events is good and bad, good is, it allow lower ranked players more game time.
but the problem is, lower prize money. But how can you have good prize money if you have no super stars creating coverage? I guess it is a difficult one to balance.

WTT puts 20% of its income into prize money, so that is better than ITTF days.
Tennis doesn't have club circuit, table tennis has.
for most stars, club circuit is main income while international is extra.
This is like NBA where international is maybe little to no money compared to club contract.

Recap on the wins.
for someone like Felix, I am sure his Pro A contract is double that, or even triple, so his 2 earnings is perhaps 600k a year, and that doesn't include his payments from Tibhar - being the number 1 player, the amount might not be far off his WTT winnings.

if you do profit and loss for pros for internationals, go to play smash and champions - only pay for flights, the rest is free (entry fee, hotel, meals, transport is all covered by WTT). and winnings (+ points is higher).
So the problem really is, WR100 onwards, will struggle to see international earnings.

PS. some times TT companies, or even clubs, will sponsors you tickets for internationals - even for WR 100 players.
Not sure how much support tennis gets, but I'm sure there is no tennis league, where clubs will send players internationally. Maybe the main sponsor would (include ticket on top of money)

 

[Table10Ice]

In what pro sport can you be top 800 and expect to make a good living?

Soccer?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Soccer?

how do you measure top 800 for soccer? haha

i think in relative to soccer, maybe it must be top 8000? because it is a team sport with more players in a team/position.

but same context, 800 or 8000 for soccer, income vs expense.
i guess you travel with the team, so no traveling expense.
so your income is pure income.

 

[Dominikk85]

In tennis you need to be about top120 to make a good living. Tennis is insanely expensive, you need Travel, hotels and almost all pros have a Private coach who probably makes at least 70k a year (top coaches of top10 players probably make half a Million a year).

Table tennis is quite different. Very few players could make a living from playing tournaments, they make most of their money by being employed by a professional league team like in the bundesliga who also pay for their coaching/training.

The best chance to earn pay is in team sports. There are probably 2000 players who make at least half a million a year in soccer (for example there are over 400 players in the Premier league alone and a similar number in the bundesliga, Serie A and Spanish la Liga). And in major league baseball last year 500 players made over a million dollars.

Individual sports don't offer that many chances, you have to be very elite while in baseball or soccer you can be the 200th best in the world and make millions a year (last year 200th highest salary in mlb was 6 millions)

 

[Table10Ice]

how do you measure top 800 for soccer? haha

i think in relative to soccer, maybe it must be top 8000? because it is a team sport with more players in a team/position.

but same context, 800 or 8000 for soccer, income vs expense.
i guess you travel with the team, so no traveling expense.
so your income is pure income.

According to https://www.transfermarkt.com/spieler-statistik/wertvollstespieler/marktwertetop ther are at least 500 soccer players world wide who are valued at 20 million euros and more.

To put that into perspective, the most valuable player in the highest soccer level in Finland (a very shitty league, I know haha) is valued at 800k euros and have a salary about 150k euros a year. So there must be several thousands of soccer pros globally with a income of let's say above 500k euros.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

According to https://www.transfermarkt.com/spieler-statistik/wertvollstespieler/marktwertetop ther are at least 500 soccer players world wide who are valued at 20 million euros and more.

To put that into perspective, the most valuable player in the highest soccer level in Finland (a very shitty league, I know haha) is valued at 800k euros and have a salary about 150k euros a year. So there must be several thousands of soccer pros globally with a income of let's say above 500k euros.

value is going to be a difficult way to benchmark things.
most players value do not come from salary, but from other forms of income.

Michael Jordon and Shaq didn't make they fortunes from salaries.

 

[pong99]

Shaq made almost $300 million from NBA salary. Top players today are earning over $50 million per year. Shaq made hundreds of millions more in endorsements. He stated that he banked all of his NBA salary and lived large by spending most or all of his endorsement income during his playing days.

After taxes and agent fees, Shaq banked at least $150 million. With very conservative investments, that would be worth well over $200 million when he retired.

Messi made over 100 million euro per year in his last 4 years at Barca. Ronaldo got 75 million per year to go play in Saudi.

Stories about players toiling in obscurity for little pay have been around for years. I have seen many accounts of minor league baseball players, golfers grinding on lower tours, 3rd division soccer players, NFL practice squad players, basketball players who have played all over the world chasing the dream, etc.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Shaq made almost $300 million from NBA salary. Top players today are earning over $50 million per year. Shaq made hundreds of millions more in endorsements. He stated that he banked all of his NBA salary and lived large by spending most or all of his endorsement income during his playing days.

After taxes and agent fees, Shaq banked at least $150 million. With very conservative investments, that would be worth well over $200 million when he retired.

Messi made over 100 million euro per year in his last 4 years at Barca. Ronaldo got 75 million per year to go play in Saudi.

Stories about players toiling in obscurity for little pay have been around for years. I have seen many accounts of minor league baseball players, golfers grinding on lower tours, 3rd division soccer players, NFL practice squad players, basketball players who have played all over the world chasing the dream, etc.

so it is inaccurate to say a players networth is so much, then bench it on salary, as endorsements are a bigger number and contribution.

The Indian badminton star, Sindhu is a clear example. Her endorsements make her one of the richest badminton athletes out there, but the purpose of the thread is really based on incomes for competing versus that of expenditures.

Ma Long is another example of endorsements that is 10+ folds his playing earnings. He had over 10 million rmb in endorsements per year.

team sports like nba/soccer etc, have lesser personal expense due to traveling with the team, living in hotels, even in lower pro levels.
while in table tennis, or tennis, or badminton, you travel at your own cost, live in hotels at your own expense.