Time Boll & Patrick Franziska using Black side for FH

[fais]

Back in the celluloid ball days it was pretty common for Euro/Jap players to use red on for their FH versus Chinese players who predominately used black for reason related to the tackiness of the rubber.

I recently noticed TB and PF using black on their FH, and I'm wondering if this is due to the next gen rubbers designed for the polyball requiring more tack in order to spin the ball. For those of you who know what they are using, is my deduction correct, are their Fah rubbers tackier than what they were using before, or is TB still using a tenergy?


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[ttmonster]

Timo is using tenergy on both sides so nothing to do with tack ... its just preference ... at timo's level , butterfly will make him whatever he wants , so his considerations are not exactly similar to ours ... even the common conspiracy theory with Hurricane black being more tacky is more to do with black being more popular on the fh and hence having less time time on the shelf and the players getting it fresher than red ... its been discussed in detail in other threads in the forum ...

... a better conspiracy theory to propose would be the rubber companies make more margin on the black rubber and thats why they ask their sponsored players to use them on their forehand ...

Back in the celluloid ball days it was pretty common for Euro/Jap players to use red on for their FH versus Chinese players who predominately used black for reason related to the tackiness of the rubber.

I recently noticed TB and PF using black on their FH, and I'm wondering if this is due to the next gen rubbers designed for the polyball requiring more tack in order to spin the ball. For those of you who know what they are using, is my deduction correct, are their Fah rubbers tackier than what they were using before, or is TB still using a tenergy?


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[zeio]

No, it's no conspiracy theory that tacky rubber is tackier in black. It's been this way from the days of the 729.

 

[dio_hgw]

Don't know about tacky rubbers, but for non-tacky rubbers it's clearly a matter of preference. Personally I like black on my FH to avoid red "flashing" before my eyes when I play BH.

 

[JST]

Interesting topic, I was looking exactly into this when coming back to TT after 15 years. Back in 90s when I was playing as a kid ALL European players were using RED on FH. Saive, Gatien, JOW, Persson, Kreanga, Boll... you name it it was RED on FH and BLACK on BH. Then I returned back to the game in 2017 and suddenly I see all guys in local club with BLACK on FH. Checking youtube and the same. Even guys like Waldner and Persson are using black on FH during exhibitions. What happened????

Then I tracked it down and I've noticed that all this happened in spring 2008 with Tenergy series release by BFLY. Suddenly Timo, Vladi, JOW, Persson... all of them with black on FH. So now tell me how strong reason must be for people like Waldner and Persson to switch colors after 25 years in the game? That isn't just accident or "preference".

Also interesting to see majority of Chinese players using black on FH in 90s but some exceptions exist: see Ma Lin using red on FH in World Cup 2007 (e.g. against Ryu Seung Min who also plays red on FH) and then suddenly he kills with black rubber on FH in 2008. Did his esthetic preference switched suddenly over night? I doubt

 

[JST]

Now looking to more youtube archives there are few players who kept red on FH (Maze, Ryu) and few who altered back and force during 2008-2011 (Boll, Waldner) before arriving to black on FH for good. It can be that Timo got just some hardness/wight options for given tournament and he switched the colors to have the right FH/BH rubber but I would still like some insider's explanation to have better sleep (EJ virus knocking on my window at 1am

 

[mart1nandersson]

No, it's no conspiracy theory that tacky rubber is tackier in black. It's been this way from the days of the 729.

So it's not just an urban legend? It probably mainly reflects my low skill level but I've really tried to feel a different between red and black H3 Neo without succeeeding.

 

[yuri.saldon]

But sometimes Timo still play with the red in the fh, Chuang chih-yuan, some Japanese players like yuya oshima and maharu Yoshimura still play with red tenergy in fh

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[Suga D]

No, it's no conspiracy theory that tacky rubber is tackier in black. It's been this way from the days of the 729.

That's not exactly accurate IMHO.
Personally I always found that the eggplant coloured ones were the tackiest.
Only after they stopped the production of eggplant coloured rubbers the black ones took over, but before that the eggplant ones were the real deal holyfield.
I still have a 30+ y.o. eggplant one that is as tacky as day one...

If I remember correctly then TTD-member yoass has also made very nice experiences with the eggplant-coloured one.

I have a 30-35 years old sheet of Friendship 729, the original stuff, maroon (eggplant) coloured that kindly disagrees. Needs a few drops of water and a wipe every now and then, after which it will lift a ball for multiple seconds. I even now still like how it plays. A shame that colour isn't permitted anymore…

(Hoping to get a ‘eroica’ tournament off the ground, that allows only vintage (30+ years old) equipment, balls too, using early '80s rules. My Friendship is ready for it.)

 

[JST]

But sometimes Timo still play with the red in the fh, Chuang chih-yuan, some Japanese players like yuya oshima and maharu Yoshimura still play with red tenergy in fh

Just for the record can you find some video or photo when Timo plaid with red on FH last time? I haven't found anything newer then 2010...

 

[Suga D]

Quote added to my previous comment.

 

[Airoc]

Spoke to a pro yesterday who had a talk about this with an executive from a manufacturer. Manufacturer exec says the difference that the colour makes is way below 1 %, I don´t want to misquote but I think it was even a zero after the comma (0,03 if I remember correctly).

If you can feel that, it may make a difference. The pro himself thinks the difference is bigger, but that may all be down to different production dates and series of rubbers. In theory, a black and red rubber manufactured on the same day with the same ingredients should be identical if for the marginal 0,something.

 

[JST]

Spoke to a pro yesterday who had a talk about this with an executive from a manufacturer. Manufacturer exec says the difference that the colour makes is way below 1 %, I don´t want to misquote but I think it was even a zero after the comma (0,03 if I remember correctly).

If you can feel that, it may make a difference. The pro himself thinks the difference is bigger, but that may all be down to different production dates and series of rubbers. In theory, a black and red rubber manufactured on the same day with the same ingredients should be identical if for the marginal 0,something.

Great. Did he mention why majority PROs like black on FH? Really just a coincidence? Also any reason why this has changed (at least among Europen PROs) in mid/late 00'?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

These days, with the newer versions of H3, I am not sure that the performance differs from red to black. But DHS does NOT make blue sponge in red and most of the top CNT players use blue sponge. Therefore, if they choose blue sponge, they have to have black for FH. So this may be one of the reasons the top CNT players will use black. They don't really have any other choice.

These days, with technological advancements, certainly from a manufacturing standpoint, there should be no reason any of the top companies cannot make red and black perform 99.9% the same.

For sure, with non-Chinese manufacturers and companies, there is absolutely no issue for them to make red and black perform the more than 99.9% the same. So, players using Butterfly, ESN or other catapult sponge rubbers with what used to get called a built in speed glue effect, if they are using black as FH here are a few theories for why that might be:

1) The best players are CNT players and that is what all the top CNT players use (I explained at least one reason above), and so, perhaps they are copying what the best do.
2) These days where you are not supposed to hide your serves, black actually makes it just slightly harder to see the precise angle of contact on the serve.
3) Personal preference.
4) Wives tales and folklore about the two being different.

Personally, I just like black on FH. Black is just, urm.....I don't know....darker....black knight, black riders, the dark lord....I personally like how people associate evil with my FH.

There was a time when Chinese tacky rubbers were clearly different red to black. If there are brands where that is still the case, it is not because production companies cannot figure that out. I am not so sure DHS is one of those companies who has not sorted that out. But DHS still sells a huge percentage more black H3 than red: a guess would be something like 50 to 1. That may even be generous. So, sometimes when you try to buy a Red H3 it has been sitting on a shelf for years and so, does not play as good as an H3 that just came off the press.

But these issues really don't matter to me. However, since it sounds like it matters to you, why not do some testing: choose a rubber and get the same rubber red and black and keep flipping back and forth without looking at which one you are using. See if you can tell when you are playing. Try it with brand new H3, Tenergy, MXP, any rubber you like. Tell us which rubbers you were able to feel a difference with. Tell us if there are any where you cannot feel a difference.

One detail to note. Since DHS sells so many more Black H3 than Red H3, the red you get may be older if you get from a seller that does not sell a lot of H3. But it is still worth testing.

 

[Baal]

I used red on FH forever Bryce, T05). With Karis M I prefer black on FH. I don't think it's all in my head but I can't rule it out. The effect is small if real. This of course means nothing regarding T05. Most people I know using T05 use red on FH.

 

[Airoc]

DHS does NOT make blue sponge in red and most of the top CNT players use blue sponge. Therefore, if they choose blue sponge, they have to have black for FH. So this may be one of the reasons the top CNT players will use black. They don't really have any other choice.

I wanted to say that, too - but wasn´t 100 % sure.

These days, with technological advancements, certainly from a manufacturing standpoint, there should be no reason any of the top companies cannot make red and black perform 99.9% the same.

And at least that manufacturer says indeed they don´t.

The best players are CNT players and that is what all the top CNT players use (I explained at least one reason above), and so, perhaps they are copying what the best do.

Funny you should say that. We have a seasoned ex-pro in our club who develops blades, knows a lot about material and is pretty analytical (for his own racket) about how the rubbers have to be glued (some layers lenghtways, some across). However, as for his preference for black on FH he says "been doing that since the 70s, because the Chinese do."

Wives tales and folklore about the two being different.

And they don´t die. However, talking to that pro I mentioned in the post above we checked two "selected" rubbers on the same racket and the black one was substantially softer. So, even on that quality level, differences may appear. I just don´t believe anymore that they are the rule.

Here is another reason: If I remember correctly, Timo Boll switched from red to black because his preferred weight of FH rubber wasn´t available in red. Instead of using something lighter (which he recently said he is doing now, giving the rubber more catapult, but he is talking about 1 gram so I doubt many mortals would feel a difference ...) he switched colours. And just never switched back.

Personally, I just like black on FH.

I started with both sides red (yes, long time ago). Then in our team three out of four played Yasaka Tornado (which was "nature" coloured, a name for all things mocca-ish to mellow orange). As long as it was allowed, I would choose according to colour, something that was exotic - a blue Mark V, a green Donic Slick ...Red and black was boring, and I never gave a s..t about which went where, until after a long pause I came to my current club, thought "when in Rome ..." and copied that seasoned ex-pro.

See if you can tell when you are playing. Try it with brand new H3, Tenergy, MXP, any rubber you like. Tell us which rubbers you were able to feel a difference with. Tell us if there are any where you cannot feel a difference.

Well, I guess this would not be fully substantial, because the testing wouldn´t be unbiased and you´d need a good number of tests before you could even speak of a rule, not just a coincidence. Also, there can hardly be a doubt that there are a few variations in the production process, so if you get one black MX-P in 2,07 mm and one red in 2,21 (both fit the 2.1/2.2 range given on the packaging) you might even arrive at the conclusion that the red is softer and spinnier and the whole myth is the other way round.

I rest my case.

By the way, excellent post Carl.

 

[JST]

These days, with the newer versions of H3, I am not sure that the performance differs from red to black. But DHS does NOT make blue sponge in red and most of the top CNT players use blue sponge. Therefore, if they choose blue sponge, they have to have black for FH. So this may be one of the reasons the top CNT players will use black. They don't really have any other choice.

These days, with technological advancements, certainly from a manufacturing standpoint, there should be no reason any of the top companies cannot make red and black perform 99.9% the same.

For sure, with non-Chinese manufacturers and companies, there is absolutely no issue for them to make red and black perform the more than 99.9% the same. So, players using Butterfly, ESN or other catapult sponge rubbers with what used to get called a built in speed glue effect, if they are using black as FH here are a few theories for why that might be:

1) The best players are CNT players and that is what all the top CNT players use (I explained at least one reason above), and so, perhaps they are copying what the best do.
2) These days where you are not supposed to hide your serves, black actually makes it just slightly harder to see the precise angle of contact on the serve.
3) Personal preference.
4) Wives tales and folklore about the two being different.

Personally, I just like black on FH. Black is just, urm.....I don't know....darker....black knight, black riders, the dark lord....I personally like how people associate evil with my FH.

There was a time when Chinese tacky rubbers were clearly different red to black. If there are brands where that is still the case, it is not because production companies cannot figure that out. I am not so sure DHS is one of those companies who has not sorted that out. But DHS still sells a huge percentage more black H3 than red: a guess would be something like 50 to 1. That may even be generous. So, sometimes when you try to buy a Red H3 it has been sitting on a shelf for years and so, does not play as good as an H3 that just came off the press.

But these issues really don't matter to me. However, since it sounds like it matters to you, why not do some testing: choose a rubber and get the same rubber red and black and keep flipping back and forth without looking at which one you are using. See if you can tell when you are playing. Try it with brand new H3, Tenergy, MXP, any rubber you like. Tell us which rubbers you were able to feel a difference with. Tell us if there are any where you cannot feel a difference.

One detail to note. Since DHS sells so many more Black H3 than Red H3, the red you get may be older if you get from a seller that does not sell a lot of H3. But it is still worth testing.

I'm afraid you missed the point this time. See how the thread is named, see original post and see my questions. It's not about my preference or OP's preference of colors but the question is why it matters to people like Timo Boll, Persson, Samsonov, Waldner and others who used to play with red on FH in 90s and early millenium (Sriver era) and then switched. Similar for other older PROs in lower World Ranking (first national division in FR, DE, BE, AT, PL, CZ...)

It was always clear why Chinese and rest of the world (who were admiring CNT way before 00s when it started to be popular in Europe as well) play with black on FH: because the best were using blue sponge tacky rubbers on FH since 90s and the rest of China and countries with their influence followed. It was similar in Europe: Swedes were playing with red on FH since 80s and they were idols for all of us so we never thought about black on FH, end of the story. So the only question remaining in the story is why they switched (some of them after 20 years or more) or specifically why some of them switched before Tenergy introduction (e.g. Korbel), many of them during 2008 (Boll, Persson, Ovtcharov, Samsonov...), some of them later (e.g. Waldner) and some of them never (e.g. Saive).

I see this thread not about what I should use (I will stay with red on FH to remind me where and when I learned the game, unless I find the way to blue sponge Hurricanes but as curiosity from PRO world. And believe me that if(when) I meet some older PRO I will ask. But that can take months in my case so if someone here knows the story it would be great to learn!

 

[TTHopeful]

People simply copying their idols from China

 

[Tembel]

I'm afraid you missed the point this time. See how the thread is named, see original post and see my questions. It's not about my preference or OP's preference of colors but the question is why it matters to people like Timo Boll, Persson, Samsonov, Waldner and others who used to play with red on FH in 90s and early millenium (Sriver era) and then switched. Similar for other older PROs in lower World Ranking (first national division in FR, DE, BE, AT, PL, CZ...)

It was always clear why Chinese and rest of the world (who were admiring CNT way before 00s when it started to be popular in Europe as well) play with black on FH: because the best were using blue sponge tacky rubbers on FH since 90s and the rest of China and countries with their influence followed. It was similar in Europe: Swedes were playing with red on FH since 80s and they were idols for all of us so we never thought about black on FH, end of the story. So the only question remaining in the story is why they switched (some of them after 20 years or more) or specifically why some of them switched before Tenergy introduction (e.g. Korbel), many of them during 2008 (Boll, Persson, Ovtcharov, Samsonov...), some of them later (e.g. Waldner) and some of them never (e.g. Saive).

I see this thread not about what I should use (I will stay with red on FH to remind me where and when I learned the game, unless I find the way to blue sponge Hurricanes but as curiosity from PRO world. And believe me that if(when) I meet some older PRO I will ask. But that can take months in my case so if someone here knows the story it would be great to learn!

I agree with you that people are missing your point. Why did the old pro's all of sudden switch from red to black? Maybe Dan can bring this question with him to his next interview with one of them!

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yeah. I guess the players in question would have to answer that.