Video Footage Safe Thread

[NextLevel]

What is the problem with the stroke though?

I see, thank you.

How about form? For FH and BH?

For the backhand, you are using the upper arm and extending too much thereby moving the elbow around. This is possible, but generally wrong in spin strokes. If you keep the upper arm/shoulder out of it and mostly use the lower arm to hit the ball with a fixed elbow position, your stroke will look better, you should have better control and develop some good spin when you play topspins.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

What is the black rubber? sounds very hard or thin sponge, almost like pimples.

Nittaku Hurricane Pro III Turbo, great transition from Rhyzen ZGR

 

[PenHoldSandro]

My recordings

I am back with new videos. They are labeled with 18/04/25

 

[Lula]

Try putting your elbow down on the table and play backhand, that is the correct stroke.
Try moving the table closer to the wall so you can not swing the arm so far behind you. Try have the arm in front and turn the hip so the arm goes back. Do not need to have the arm behind your body.
Keep up the good work

 

[PenHoldSandro]

Try putting your elbow down on the table and play backhand, that is the correct stroke.
Try moving the table closer to the wall so you can not swing the arm so far behind you. Try have the arm in front and turn the hip so the arm goes back. Do not need to have the arm behind your body.
Keep up the good work

Ok, so:

- Keep racket leveled with the table in terms of altitude
- Use hips more
- Do not overswing

I do have a question: Why do I have to keep the racket leveled with the table?

 

[Lula]

No, you misunderstood. I want your elbow stuck on the table to learn that the elbow should stay still. Can practice this on kitchen table or sitting on the toilet. So have elbow still and use it as a pivot, so stop moving the elbow.
More focus on using arm less and body more in the beginning. Can use the arm later but always need to to use start with the body and use the body more or less.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

No, you misunderstood. I want your elbow stuck on the table to learn that the elbow should stay still. Can practice this on kitchen table or sitting on the toilet. So have elbow still and use it as a pivot, so stop moving the elbow.
More focus on using arm less and body more in the beginning. Can use the arm later but always need to to use start with the body and use the body more or less.

Oh I see now, thank you!

So far in my *shadowing* I only move my elbow a bit for preparation and like a spring by the end due to inertia. Is this okay? Or does it really have to be stiff?

 

[NextLevel]

Oh I see now, thank you!

So far in my *shadowing* I only move my elbow a bit for preparation and like a spring by the end due to inertia. Is this okay? Or does it really have to be stiff?

When a coach tells you something, it is okay to ask questions but it is even better to try it out and just send the video or what the coach is asking for back. The coach is not so much trying to give you a final stroke as he is trying to give you exercises that might enhance your overall feeling for the stroke.

Very often when I ask a player to try a certain drill or hit a ball a certain way, it can be annoying to the player who wants to hit thr ball another way. But what surprises them (!and sometimes me) is that the drill i assigned makes even their current way of hitting the ball even better because it brings it closer to what good technique recommends even if it doesn't completely fix the problems with their stroke. And I am not the one that notices it usually, they usually find they can do things practicing with other people that they couldn't do before that.

Just food for though, not saying it is bad to ask questions, especially since as an adult learner, you often feel you need to understand what you are trying to do. But trust me doing it and sharing video is often better and faster than asking too many questions because what the coach needs to see is often the most important thing.

You seem to have a template in mind for your backhand. You can keep it, but i still think it is better to fix the elbow and learn that first. The drill Lula is giving you is an attempt to get the elbow working closer to what he wants to see which is likely what I would like to see too. But I can understand if you have a template in mind and want to work off that. It just isn't quite what I like to see but that doesn't mean it is not okay, it just means you have to work with whoever is teaching you that.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

When a coach tells you something, it is okay to ask questions but it is even better to try it out and just send the video or what the coach is asking for back. The coach is not so much trying to give you a final stroke as he is trying to give you exercises that might enhance your overall feeling for the stroke.

Fair, I'm usually too lazy to record so I describe it. I will create a new drive for shadowings and share it here.

Very often when I ask a player to try a certain drill or hit a ball a certain way, it can be annoying to the player who wants to hit thr ball another way. But what surprises them (!and sometimes me) is that the drill i assigned makes even their current way of hitting the ball even better because it brings it closer to what good technique recommends even if it doesn't completely fix the problems with their stroke. And I am not the one that notices it usually, they usually find they can do things practicing with other people that they couldn't do before that.

I see, I think it's just that it brings the stroke 1 step closer to going with, not against, physics correctly xD

Just food for though, not saying it is bad to ask questions, especially since as an adult learner, you often feel you need to understand what you are trying to do. But trust me doing it and sharing video is often better and faster than asking too many questions because what the coach needs to see is often the most important thing.

Alright, I absolutely will!

You seem to have a template in mind for your backhand. You can keep it, but i still think it is better to fix the elbow and learn that first. The drill Lula is giving you is an attempt to get the elbow working closer to what he wants to see which is likely what I would like to see too. But I can understand if you have a template in mind and want to work off that. It just isn't quite what I like to see but that doesn't mean it is not okay, it just means you have to work with whoever is teaching you that.

Ok, I'll fix up my elbow.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

Shadowing

 

[NextLevel]

Shadowing

Do it and hit a ball like in the videos you have posted prior. I looked at myself in a mirror shadowing my most powerful backhands and my elbow moves nowhere as much as yours even when I use the full body. You need to stop using the upper arm to push forward and keep the elbow in place and find the right strike zone with the elbow in place. Reaching forward to hit the ball loses power. It might look to you like what a top player is going on some strokes but no that is not what they are doing, everything needs to be properly constructed and trained and then a proper feel for what they are doing is possible.

So please hit the ball with the elbow in place and stop extending the upper arm and moving the elbow around. If you don't trust the advice, that is fine but I have to give it to you straight since you asked for the comments and it is clearly the biggest issue in the video.

 

[Der_Echte]

Hey @PenHoldSandro I see your practice BH...

You are doing the shot much like a low power warm-up kind of like you are only trying to keep the ball on the table.

Not much explosion, not much bat speed. You move your upper arm and shoulder during the stroke.

That kind of stroke is OK for a very defensive or neutral resultant ball. That stroke works fine for not giving the point away immediately, but would often result in you losing point on next ball from attack or at a minimum be under serious pressure.

If you want to develop an attacking BH, your biomechanics need to change like NL and Lula are advocating for you to change towards.

However, biomechanics are maybe number three on the big scheme of TT things. A couple things need to happen well before you can use good biomechanics to make a good quality offensive shot.

Number one skill in TT is reading opponent's impact. This means that once opponent impacts ball and the ball travels not even 30 cm... that you know WHAT DIRECTION ball is going, WHICH amount of spin, WHAT type of spin... that you know in 3D the position of the ball when it would pass your endline... that you also know the vector and speed of the ball.

The takeaway from this is you immediately discern this and already formed in your subconscious mind what you want to do to the incoming ball and how.

The number two skill in TT is getting to a good position with enough leverage to make a quality shot to be able to strike ball in effective part of strike zone on time and recover for the next ball.

If a player has decent biomechanics, but cannot do number 1 and 2, then that player is trying to play a strong shot out of position and out of leverage... it is usually a disaster result - immediate lost point.

I have a funny comment I often say when I am chopping a ball to my offensive player friends in practice... when I chop a ball that goes a little inside their strike zone... and they fail to adjust position and comically miss their shot - not even close to landing.

No Position, No Leverage, NO CHANCE.

Many people will give advice assuming 1 and 2 are in order... and often mistakes in reading ball and position/leverage/timing of shot are what makes a poor biomechanic or poor shot.

Biomechanics are uber important. One cannot play quality shots and get to any real level without them.

NL and Lula do great articulating what and how you should structure your biomechanics for the BH - they are worthy to listen to and try to put into practice what they are saying.

 

[Der_Echte]

Try putting your elbow down on the table and play backhand, that is the correct stroke.
Try moving the table closer to the wall so you can not swing the arm so far behind you. Try have the arm in front and turn the hip so the arm goes back. Do not need to have the arm behind your body.
Keep up the good work

@PenHoldSandro What Lula is saying here is an exercise to get you to isolate things... to get you into feeling how it is to set position with elbow and upper arm and keep that stable during the BH stroke.

This suggestion is pure Genius stuff in that it is VERY easy to do, costs you zero money, and is very effective to develop a feel of setting elbow/upper arm position. You do an exercise like this enough, eventually when you do a shot you will not be moving upper arm all around the state.

(I often have players who are on other side of table hold their hitting upper arm with the free hand right before the swing - it allows them to move upper arm to position of leverage and the quick holding of upper arm keeps that leverage)

It is difficult to break a "bad" habit of moving the upper arm all around.

I may disagree with the absolute need to turn hips (unless away from table and you need more power) (I usually advocate for a dip downward with hips and some bowing forward of upper body on hips) (NL advocates this kind of BH body prep). but Lula is making another genius level suggestion about the arm and hips.

The key point Lula is showing about hips (that i also advocate) is that you use your lower body to move and set position of the hips, it should not be controlled by a big arm movement. What Lula shows is how to set leverage in a compact efficient way that gives much more quickness, stability and resultant consistency/quality/power/spin over longer inefficient motions of prep.

What Lula is showing here is golden. It is a way to force your body prep into a quick efficient form.

So many players watch CNT vids and want to make these long strokes when in fact, they are compact at the table and longer away from table. Long motion prep is not needed and gets in the way, use your lower body to prep, you will do better for it.

 

[NextLevel]

Hey @PenHoldSandro I see your practice BH...

You are doing the shot much like a low power warm-up kind of like you are only trying to keep the ball on the table.

Not much explosion, not much bat speed. You move your upper arm and shoulder during the stroke.

That kind of stroke is OK for a very defensive or neutral resultant ball. That stroke works fine for not giving the point away immediately, but would often result in you losing point on next ball from attack or at a minimum be under serious pressure.

If you want to develop an attacking BH, your biomechanics need to change like NL and Lula are advocating for you to change towards.

However, biomechanics are maybe number three on the big scheme of TT things. A couple things need to happen well before you can use good biomechanics to make a good quality offensive shot.

Number one skill in TT is reading opponent's impact. This means that once opponent impacts ball and the ball travels not even 30 cm... that you know WHAT DIRECTION ball is going, WHICH amount of spin, WHAT type of spin... that you know in 3D the position of the ball when it would pass your endline... that you also know the vector and speed of the ball.

The takeaway from this is you immediately discern this and already formed in your subconscious mind what you want to do to the incoming ball and how.

The number two skill in TT is getting to a good position with enough leverage to make a quality shot to be able to strike ball in effective part of strike zone on time and recover for the next ball.

If a player has decent biomechanics, but cannot do number 1 and 2, then that player is trying to play a strong shot out of position and out of leverage... it is usually a disaster result - immediate lost point.

I have a funny comment I often say when I am chopping a ball to my offensive player friends in practice... when I chop a ball that goes a little inside their strike zone... and they fail to adjust position and comically miss their shot - not even close to landing.

No Position, No Leverage, NO CHANCE.

Many people will give advice assuming 1 and 2 are in order... and often mistakes in reading ball and position/leverage/timing of shot are what makes a poor biomechanic or poor shot.

Biomechanics are uber important. One cannot play quality shots and get to any real level without them.

NL and Lula do great articulating what and how you should structure your biomechanics for the BH - they are worthy to listen to and try to put into practice what they are saying.

I have argued with many coaches too only to understand years later what they were trying to say. It doesn't always mean I was wrong or they were right (though usually I think i was wrong and they were right). One of my coaches told me to fix my elbow positioning on the forehand side and that i was using too much upper arm. I had been told by another coach that my technique was fine so I stubbornly refused. In fact one of the technical weaknesses of my forehand is overcompensating for bad positioning with the upper arm, though the original criticism was more about upper arm overuse making it harder to get stability and quality. On both good forehands and backhands, waiting (timing) is as important as swinging and not bring able to set your hitting area in the ideal zone and play the ball there with good mechanics leads to issues even if the issues might seem minor at your current level of play (they tend to show up more as you get better leading to retraining). Now one of my issues is recovery on close to the table forehand shots because I sell out with my upper arm to do a finishing shot but because I don't have the lower body recovery, I struggle to play the next shot. Of course all of this is relative to the playing speed of the opponent and how well they defend the opening shot and of course my bad knees. But maybe if I had listened to my coaches earlier, I would have had a more stable forehand earlier. But maybe not. TT is really hard when you are trying to get better and close to your max.

So add #3 to DerEchte 's skill list: being able to recover to do the next shot when the ball comes back and catch the ball in a position that gives you leverage etc. Just one of the reasons why upper arm overuse is dangerous.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

Thank you @Der_Echte and @NextLevel

Basically I don't move my elbow and upper arm, and let my lower arm and body do all the work.

 

[NextLevel]

Thank you @Der_Echte and @NextLevel

Basically I don't move my elbow and upper arm, and let my lower arm and body do all the work.

It's a feeling. They will move a little but nit the way you are moving them and they will move because the rest of the body especially the core is moving but not because the upper arm is moving. The upper arm is the slowest part of the body in table tennis. It should only add very little to lots of other powerful motions.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

It's a feeling. They will move a little but nit the way you are moving them and they will move because the rest of the body especially the core is moving but not because the upper arm is moving. The upper arm is the slowest part of the body in table tennis. It should only add very little to lots of other powerful motions.

I see, thx bro

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I see, thx bro

Just so you know, all the talk about keeping the elbow stable and moving the forearm while the elbow is stable and you are not using the upper arm, all of that is a different way of saying what I said in my post as well.

It is good to hear different people explain how to get from where you are to where you want your BH stroke to be.

 

[omelet]

not to start a debate about technique, genuinely curious: why does Ma Longs backhand have a huge amount of elbow back/forth movement? Fan Zhendong keeps elbow still but it seems to require a little bit of lat/trap tension inherently...

genuinely asking cause i dont get it...

[

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[Lula]

I think technique is very relative and subjective. Not much right and wrong, more like guidelines. If you get good quality in the ball and it suits your game then it is good.

With elbow i think it is good to have out at the side. I think Ma Long and many others that play tempo on the backhand or are more forehand oriented many times have the elbow closer and push a bit more. Like Harimoto and Truls. Players that play with more power, like Li Shidong, Fan Zhengdong, Wang Chuqin, Franziska, Jorgic, Calderano and many more have the elbow more at the side and take power from it. I also believe many start from the elbow but stop very fast so it looks like they do not use the elbow so much.