Why did China not field Wang Manyu after she saved them against India?

[John Birkin]

Sorry if this is out of date or already discussed, but it must have been a real slap in the face for her. You completely save the team from disaster, but then you don't get picked for the next key matches! Crazy! I am hoping that someone will explain that she was not fully fit.

 

[SFF_lib]

Lots of backslash on WeChat and Bilibili. This is especially relatable to average Chinese because unlike many others, WMY came from a very humble family. She's worked really hard over the years to make her way up to the CNT.

But it's a dictatorship. People can whine, but politics always win 😞

 

[TensorBackhand]

Lots of backslash on WeChat and Bilibili. This is especially relatable to average Chinese because unlike many others, WMY came from a very humble family. She's worked really hard over the years to make her way up to the CNT.

But it's a dictatorship. People can whine, but politics always win 😞

What does that mean? Does WYD have some political connections?

 

[SFF_lib]

What does that mean? Does WYD have some political connections?

Both WYD's parents were professional table tennis players. They had helpful connections.

Chen Meng's aunty is a famous celebrity and both her parents were wealthy.

SYS's parents were civil servants, also wealthy with connections.

CXT's parents were teachers, far from the top 3 in terms of wealth and connections.

WMY's dad lost his job, she came from the least wealthy family. Her dad used to sell fried pancakes to support her tt career.

It is still important to have connections and wealth if you want to advance your career. For WMY, this is what most Chinese suspect as the reason why the CNT isn't emphasising on her as much.

 

[lodro]

Both WYD's parents were professional table tennis players. They had helpful connections.

Chen Meng's aunty is a famous celebrity and both her parents were wealthy.

SYS's parents were civil servants, also wealthy with connections.

CXT's parents were teachers, far from the top 3 in terms of wealth and connections.

WMY's dad lost his job, she came from the least wealthy family. Her dad used to sell fried pancakes to support her tt career.

It is still important to have connections and wealth if you want to advance your career. For WMY, this is what most Chinese suspect as the reason why the CNT isn't emphasising on her as much.

Ahh, were are the good old days of communism when all people were equal 😂😂😂😂
( sorry , can not find a smilie with tongue in cheek )

 

[Gozo Aruna]

is there a possibility

Ahh, were are the good old days of communism when all people were equal 😂😂😂😂
( sorry , can not find a smilie with tongue in cheek )

All are born equal, only some are more equal than others - George Orwell.

 

[NextLevel]

Sorry if this is out of date or already discussed, but it must have been a real slap in the face for her. You completely save the team from disaster, but then you don't get picked for the next key matches! Crazy! I am hoping that someone will explain that she was not fully fit.

The policy is for China to field the top 3 ranked players in knockout rounds. Wang Manyu was #4 at the time of the knockout rounds during the WTTTC. It really is that simple. People underestimate how much coach selection can lead to accusations of favoritism. China is traditionally considered the best country at withstanding these accusations with a bias towards team performance and even they are having enough issues to move towards using such a policy.

 

[whiteAshes]

The policy is for China to field the top 3 ranked players in knockout rounds. Wang Manyu was #4 at the time of the knockout rounds during the WTTTC. It really is that simple. People underestimate how much coach selection can lead to accusations of favoritism. China is traditionally considered the best country at withstanding these accusations with a bias towards team performance and even they are having enough issues to move towards using such a policy.

The policy is set by the Chinese team rather than the ITTF, and Wang Yidi (WYD) holds the worst record against foreign players among the top five Chinese players. In the last match against Japan, the Chinese team was on the brink of losing. As the old Chinese saying goes, 'the rules may be dead, but people are alive.' If the Chinese team loses to Japan, Ma Lin will have to step down from his position as the coach of the women's team, a fact evident from his expression.It indicates that WYD's higher ranking is largely due to her significantly greater participation opportunities compared to WMY. Some Chinese fans hope for a Japanese victory over China so that Wang Manyu can be treated fairly.

 

[SFF_lib]

The policy is for China to field the top 3 ranked players in knockout rounds. Wang Manyu was #4 at the time of the knockout rounds during the WTTTC. It really is that simple. People underestimate how much coach selection can lead to accusations of favoritism. China is traditionally considered the best country at withstanding these accusations with a bias towards team performance and even they are having enough issues to move towards using such a policy.

Not true.

Ito (WR14, rank #2 among Japanese) did not play for Japan

Joo Cheonhui (WR16, rank #2 among Korean) did not play for Korea

 

[turbozed]

Both WYD's parents were professional table tennis players. They had helpful connections.

Chen Meng's aunty is a famous celebrity and both her parents were wealthy.

SYS's parents were civil servants, also wealthy with connections.

CXT's parents were teachers, far from the top 3 in terms of wealth and connections.

WMY's dad lost his job, she came from the least wealthy family. Her dad used to sell fried pancakes to support her tt career.

It is still important to have connections and wealth if you want to advance your career. For WMY, this is what most Chinese suspect as the reason why the CNT isn't emphasising on her as much.

Didn't realize WMY came from such humble roots.

Chinese media don't seem to do a good job of conveying stories of their players for international audiences. If WMY was in Japan, there would be several human interest segments about her on TV Tokyo and fans would all know her dad's name.

 

[driversbeat]

I recall a video where WMY's coach was interviewed after she won WTTC 2021. WMY expected a big celebratory hug but her coach simply said "it's all been done before". Usually they'll say things like this championship was really hard to come by we went through so many tough periods blah blah blah. That interview felt off and maybe I'm connecting dots where there aren't any but maybe they were trying to downplay her achievement.

 

[zeio]

Fun facts:
CTTA: Medal sweep!
Fans: Dictatorship!
CTTA: Open, fair, and just selection system for Paris 2024!
Fans: Favoritism toward WYD!
WTTC 2024: WT F CHN 3-2 JPN!
Fans: Screw the rules, field WMY already!
China National Radio (CNR): Lazy governance that merely shifts the burden of accountability from the coaches to the players!

好一个懒政，好一个一冠遮百丑
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/8912171226

 

[zeio]

Here is the story. For Paris 2024, 国家体育总局/the General Administration of Sport of China has announced that every Olympic sport must publish the selection criteria. CTTA came up with a selection system that is even more sophisticated than JTTA. The period of the race starts on 2023/5/8 (effectively before WTTC 2023) and ends on 2024/5/7 (effectively after World Cup 2024). apacible started a thread over at Mytt and gave a succinct summary. Give it a read.

Team China's Race to Paris 2024 Singles
https://web.archive.org/web/2024012...1945909676&w=FEFGmR8oeTmp4bGNc0G9Syhr4TIARRXk
https://web.archive.org/web/2024012...5447522387&w=h0-lR9DoCLqfKmvh8K6UdCFVouv_Kj00
https://web.archive.org/web/2024012...1807278539&w=erjbuwwEoJLhCd5AEELXzA9rHtAMwbtc
https://web.archive.org/web/2024012...4672402139&w=d1smr3Khp1uAiu6el1dl968JhxHwaYpB

Official announcement of the selection system with an attachment:
https://www.ctta.cn/xhgg/ssxg/2023/0515/568059.html (China's IP needed)

Last page of the attachment:
https://xhimg.sports.cn/Image/soft/230515/49-230515203A2455.pdf
https://xhimg.sports.cn/Image/soft/230515/49-230515194303162.pdf (another version with very minor difference in wording)

Official announcement of entry rules for international competitions:
https://www.ctta.cn/xhgg/ssxg/2023/0525/568827.html (China's IP needed)

Entry rules for singles/team/mixed doubles:
https://xhimg.sports.cn/Image/allimg/230525/49-2305251G2223L.jpg

 

[zeio]

斯帝卡V乒乓第57期 王曼昱：爸爸摆摊供我打球 (Stiga VTT Episode 57 WMY: My dad works as a street vendor to support me)
https://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzY3MDg3NDE2.html

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/2014...9.html?KW=2014+World+Junior+TT+Championships.
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/2014-world-junior-tt-championships_topic69293.html (original link)

Per the request of John18, below is the translation of episode 57 of the Stiga V Table Tennis Series, which focuses on the story of Wang Manyu.

因為我從小到現在
特別刻苦吧
就是很能練就是不怕苦
也跟我們家庭有關係
就是我們家庭(經濟條件)
不是很好嘛
然後整個家裏都屬於那種
吃苦的那種
我就是借爸媽這點吃苦(精神)
才能打到現在
我們家應該算是中下(生活水平)
可能我打聯賽
家裏還能有點好轉
我媽就是當時
我在黑龍江隊的時候
就是來管我(生活)
幫我做飯洗衣服
然後陪我訓練這些
所以說整個經濟來源都是我爸
而且更何況他的工作
就不是很挣錢
他是賣肉夾饃
當時我們家在齊齊哈爾
為了我就是我爸我媽
都搬到哈爾濱來
邊陪我邊找工作挣錢
他剛來的時候是賣糖
自己做的那種花生糖
但是那個是有季莭性的
冬天賣的差一點
夏天還愛化
很不好賣嘛
後來就想肉夾饃還能好一點
就是一直到現在
即使我現在經濟好一點
但是他一直依然在賣
我也不希望他再繼續做了
那麼苦太苦了
但是我爸覺得還是不夠
因為我們家現在
齊齊哈爾的房子基本上沒有
然後哈爾濱也是租房子住
他現在打算在齊齊哈爾
買一套房子
然後再為我攢點錢吧
(媽媽)她現在也在哈爾濱
現在是照顧我姥姥
我姥姥也在那兒生活
所以我爸相當於
除了今年以外
一直照顧我們一家四口
還得繼續努力吧
一年要比一年好
讓家裏慢慢好起來
就是讓他們過得輕鬆一點
那麼多年一直那麼生活
想改變一下家庭
[插曲]我知道　我的未來不是夢　我認真的過每一分鐘
我的未來不是夢　我的心跟著希望在動

我的未來不是夢　我認真的過每一分鐘
我的未來不是夢　我的心跟著希望在動　跟著希望在動
[/插曲]

Since a little kid
I ve been much more hardworking than usual
The type that can take a beating
That has to do with my family background
Our family is not
that well off financially
The whole family belongs to the type
that bears hardships
It is all because of this spirit of mom and dad
that I can hold on till now
My family(standard of living) is perhaps below average
My playing in the league
helps the family to take a turn for the better
Back then it was my mom
when I was on team heilongjiang
who took care of me(daily life)
to cook and wash clothes for me
and to stay along with my training
So generally speaking the financial burden falls entirely on my dad
Not to mention the type of his job
does not make much money
He sells roujiamo
Back then our family was in Qiqihar
Because of me, mom and dad
had to move to Harbin
to stay by me and earn a living
When he first got here, he was selling candy
the kind of homemade peanut candy
But the thing is that it is seasonal
It doesn t sell well in winter
and it melts in summer
It doesn t sell at all
Then we thought roujiamo would sell a bit better
and here we are
Even if I am better off now financially
he is still selling it right now
I don t wish for him to do that anymore
given how bitter it is
but my dad still feels that is not enough
Because currently our family
does not own a house in Qiqihar
and we rent a house in Harbin
He is planning
to buy a house in Harbin
and to save some more money for me
She(mom) is here in Harbin
taking care of my grandmom
My granny also lives there
So my dad
other than this year
had been the sole supporter of our family of four
There is still more work to be done
to get better year by year
to slowly improve the family s financial condition
to ease their lives
after so many years of that kind of life
I want to change the family for the better
[insert song]
I know...My future is not a fantasy...I live every minute to the fullest
My future is not a fantasy...My heart moves with my dream
My future is not a fantasy...I live every minute to the fullest
My future is not a fantasy...My heart moves with my dream...moves with my dream
[/insert song]

 

[whiteAshes]

斯帝卡V乒乓第57期 王曼昱：爸爸摆摊供我打球 (Stiga VTT Episode 57 WMY: My dad works as a street vendor to support me)
https://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzY3MDg3NDE2.html

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/2014-world-junior-tt-championships_topic109064_page9.html?KW=2014+World+Junior+TT+Championships.
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/2014-world-junior-tt-championships_topic69293.html (original link)

My eyes get wet.

 

[Shine]

I recall a video where WMY's coach was interviewed after she won WTTC 2021. WMY expected a big celebratory hug but her coach simply said "it's all been done before". Usually they'll say things like this championship was really hard to come by we went through so many tough periods blah blah blah. That interview felt off and maybe I'm connecting dots where there aren't any but maybe they were trying to downplay her achievement.

That was WMY personal coach and ZJK's personal coach during his heydays, so he was just being factual.
The big goal has always the Olympics and Manyu hasn't been able to establish herself as prime candidate for the Olympics over 2 years later, so sobering news for her, I guess.

 

[Shine]

Here is the story. For Paris 2024, 国家体育总局/the General Administration of Sport of China has announced that every Olympic sport must publish the selection criteria. CTTA came up with a selection system that is even more sophisticated than JTTA. The period of the race starts on 2023/5/8 (effectively before WTTC 2023) and ends on 2024/5/7 (effectively after World Cup 2024). apacible started a thread over at Mytt and gave a succinct summary. Give it a read.

Team China's Race to Paris 2024 Singles
https://web.archive.org/web/2024012...1945909676&w=FEFGmR8oeTmp4bGNc0G9Syhr4TIARRXk
https://web.archive.org/web/2024012...5447522387&w=h0-lR9DoCLqfKmvh8K6UdCFVouv_Kj00
https://web.archive.org/web/2024012...1807278539&w=erjbuwwEoJLhCd5AEELXzA9rHtAMwbtc
https://web.archive.org/web/2024012...4672402139&w=d1smr3Khp1uAiu6el1dl968JhxHwaYpB

Official announcement of the selection system with an attachment:
https://www.ctta.cn/xhgg/ssxg/2023/0515/568059.html (China's IP needed)

Last page of the attachment:
https://xhimg.sports.cn/Image/soft/230515/49-230515203A2455.pdf
https://xhimg.sports.cn/Image/soft/230515/49-230515194303162.pdf (another version with very minor difference in wording)

Official announcement of entry rules for international competitions:
https://www.ctta.cn/xhgg/ssxg/2023/0525/568827.html (China's IP needed)

Entry rules for singles/team/mixed doubles:
https://xhimg.sports.cn/Image/allimg/230525/49-2305251G2223L.jpg

Nice to see confirmation that it was a directive from the top to establish selection criteria for Olympic sports. Because I've heard different theories ranging from Ma Lin's personal preferences to WTTC placement to team politics. Everything seems clear now.
But Zeio is right that this cannibalizes the team first strategies. Because WYD can end up in 2nd place. What does the team do then?? It's obvious that she seems to have been "figured out" by the Japanese.
Btw was there any directive for the top 3 to play in all the knockout stages, or is this a decision from Ma Lin/Li Sun?

 

[NextLevel]

Where is this policy stated now again ?

When you say ranking, are you talking about ITTF ranking list ?

Are differences between #3 and #4 & say #5 that pronounced, especially at the top ?

It is crazy to suggest that China or any other team should blindly play their top 3 ranked players with total disregard to matchups against opponents in a given tie.

Especially given that ITTF rankings are mostly meaningless political manipulations & more based on participation points based ratings rather than real win-loss ratings. Mu understanding is that (I may be wrong on this) players are awarded ranking points for wins only & don't lose ranking points if they lose.
I remember Xu Xin being ranked like #80 once when he was still close to the top. I know thi sis because you start dropping down on ranking list if you stop playing but still it is sort of ridiculous

This is also why USATT is trying adopt this participation point system which is even more fake for amateur players.



No

You can read zero's post on how the Chinese sports association required objective criteria to be published by the sports associations. It is all there and it impacted who got to play matches at events that had world ranking impact. I wouldn't be surprised given your approach to posting if you were a SJAN clone but that is a topic for another time

Post in thread 'Why did China not field Wang Manyu after she saved them against India?' https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...he-saved-them-against-india.33128/post-446257

 

[NextLevel]

Not true.

Ito (WR14, rank #2 among Japanese) did not play for Japan

Joo Cheonhui (WR16, rank #2 among Korean) did not play for Korea

Please read Zeio's post which cites the historical discussion of related points on mytt and here. It is a new CNT policy driven by the request from the administrative sports body in China for objective criteria for Olympics team selection.

I wish people would read and ask questions before telling people that they were wrong or right. I never said the policy was for other countries. Other countries have their own criteria which may or may not be the same as China's. China's specific problem is that Wang Manyu has underperformed during critical periods (partly injury) and the competition in the top 5 has put her in a tough spot. She will need some miracles in the next few months to make magic happen.

 

[NextLevel]

I never said existence of policy does not exist. I only asked where it was. You twist it around as usual.

But what you conveniently chose to ignore is the fact that I already stated that such a policy is stupid. & why as it relates to fake ITTF rankings (why it may not be objective) &
It would also be incredibly stupid to impose such a rule in team events. That may make more sense in individual events but not in team events.
Again as I explained if Ma Lin had played Chen Meng instead of Wang Manyu they would have probably lost to India 3-2 (& Ma Lin will of course be the scapegoat) but Ma Lin did the right thing playing Wand Manyu at #2. It is quite possible that Chen Meng is so bad against pips that Ma Lin chose to play Wang Yidi instead. Though it failed in that single match, it may still be the correct choice to play Wang Yidi at #3 and not Chen Meng.
I have already also explained that it would make more sense but as usual you chose to ignore the facts
Also as I also pointed out first, China may even have taken it easy taking India for granted.
That is why I said this whole thread is a bogus and total waste of time.
But feel free to continue to with your "objective" claims of someone other than the coach having the freedom to choose the correct 3 players in a team event . Enjoy

Don't worry, SJAN, you will soon be gone.

I agree the policy restricts the choices of the coaches. Whether it is stupid is another story. Like most things in life, it has some positives and some negatives, and whether one likes it or not, it didn't cost China gold in this situation. Because of historical Chinese corruption, the policy actually does China more favors for those who are aware of it, even as it unfortunately restricts the coach's discretion that has been considered part of Chinese dominance. The truth is that in internal competition, the top 5 tend to have fairly similar results and beyond her losses to a few opponents, mostly Hayata but now Hirano and especially Akeela, one would struggle to make a statistically powerful case that Wang Yidi is that much worse than her compatriot based on her actual results. In fact, remove the Akeela loss and you pretty much have no case. Hirano has beaten all the top Chinese including Sun Yingsha. Hayata has now beaten Chen Meng as well. I believe Wang Yidi was the national champion in 2022 if not in 2023 as well. Wang Manyu has had injury filled years and traded wins and losses with Wang Yidi on tour.

Most national teams follow a similar policy to China even if informally. The best player or national champion usually plays the power slot (4th match). The second best player usually plays the fifth match and third best player plays the third match, with some minor adjustments. Now there have been cases historically where coaches took responsibility for team selection and there have been snafus that are easy to forget (LSS vs Singapore in 2010, anyone) and even in the final vs China, the coach toyed with the idea of not playing his best player Hayata in the power slot and moving her to where she would face Wang Yidi. And some people argue that Miu Hirano should have been played where Harimoto was. The logic of Japan was largely clear though. Hayata #1, Harimoto (via national champs and even ranking) #2 and Hirano #3. Even if the coach wanted to change things around, doing so could be perceived as a lack of belief in some players so he did the smart thing and just stuck to the order and now people are still debating whether what he did was smart or not.

India went through it's own internal arguments over the power of coaches when Batra accused a coach of encouraging her to lose to a teammate in order to give the teammate a chance to qualify. Putting in objective criteria that solve most of these problems and getting player buy in for any changes you want to make is critical. Let's remember that playing or not playing Wang Yidi in certain matches affects the rating points she gets from the event. If you don't have criteria, then people will just go wild with coaching favoritism stories.