Why do people say LP's should be banned?

[TensorBackhand]

Me minding my own business happily looping to my heart's content:
View attachment 29110

View attachment 29111

Then came LP blocker to spoil my day:
View attachment 29112

Ban the pips! Ban the pips!

Even playing field. All rubbers should have the same spin-nature. You shouldn't be able to produce topspin by chopping and produce underspin by blocking.

 

[brokenball]

where is brokenball? rubbers don't generate spin, the person using the rubber does.

I don't believe that is exactly what I have said but I agree.
there is NO SPIN A LP can make that an inverted cannot. It just takes different strokes.
Also, I saw the video where Gozo tried to loop two balls in a row against LP and the second ball went into the net.
All I can say is well duh. When you are a beginner playing against LP 0X, loop one then push the next. When you get better you learn that a back spin all will come back after you hit a top spin ball. You should try to get practice against a chopper. So you can get those back spin balls back.

 

[Der_Echte]

The training is about reading spin and generating spin
if you can't read or generate spin, then you will loose to anyone, not just LP players


you train to read spin
think about reading serves (if you are able to).
Same swing could be top or underspin

unfair = your shortcomings or unfair??


same natural spin?
where is brokenball? rubbers don't generate spin, the person using the rubber does.

there is nothing natural about any inverted rubber to any other inverted rubbers (arc, speed/spin etc)
So you can't even have 2 of the same inverted rubbers, you want to set rules for??
should just move over to hardbats if you want the same rackets.

Table tennis is what it is today because of spin and the different styles.

TB,

Tony just politely told you that you got a little head stuck up ur azz action going on.

Backup ur opinion with some facts. Is friction LP harder to play vs? No, I eat up friction LP players above my level. is SP harder to play vs? only if opponent is way better player. Is it difficult to play vs a 2x inverted player who cannot spell SPIN and flat hits everything? Only until you can attack first or figure out how to hit no spin.

Why do so many 2300-2400 hotshot power loopers struggle to win vs 2100 rate Rich Dewitt? Rich knows how to slow ball down, kill spin, and place the ball well... those are legit TT skills and Rich uses 2x inverted... my BH rubber is always more wore out than his rubbers. Until a player can figure out how to discern impact, they gunna struggle... it is a fundamental skill in TT.

We love you for your dedication to TT... you would not be posting so enthusiastically for so long here if you did not have true love for tt. We respect that and people who do not respect that are worse than head in azz syndrome.

I like Tony's point about diversity of play styles. When you had a ball that LP could better manipulate spin (Celluloid 38 and 40) there were so many different play styles going on. That was GREAT for our sport.

Now with 40+ ABS that is EASY to hit through spin, (and make your own) it nudges even amateur players to play advanced offensive strokes (flip, counter vs topspin) like a boss at a relatively low level.

I see professionally trained and some self trained players doing a rally that goes like serve under, flip, counter the flip, counter the counter, counter that counter even more fast and win point... I see 1000-1200 rated players playing this in California now.

This was UNHEARD of 5 yrs ago. Now it is commonplace. The larger new gen ABS ball with a truer bounce allows for this kind of play.

I have always advocated for LP players. When ITTF banned frictionless, literally every nation copy/paste the ittf laws into theit national assn laws... and forced out a large amount of players. In USA, we need every damn body we can muster. LA area, bay area, Dallas, NYC, Florida always gunna have a base, but the rest of the nation really struggles to make any TT action. We need everyone.

 

[Der_Echte]

While we are on the 2x inverted train, why don't we punch the ticket and talk about how UNFAIR IT IS TO BOOST RUBBERS !!!

Yes, what would you do in TT if it was totally illegal to boost H3 ???!!!

hahahahah that is pretty much the most discussed topic on TTD.

What if a ntl assn banned boosting and had a way to detect it (dynamic bounce test under z pressure) hahahha tourney director would catch you... then you gotta play untuned H3 which is deader than D. Feinstein's notebook.

Now you are forced out or have to adapt.

How about those apples ???

That is exactly what happened to LP players 15 years ago or so.

 

[TensorBackhand]

TB,

Tony just politely told you that you got a little head stuck up ur azz action going on.

Backup ur opinion with some facts. Is friction LP harder to play vs? No, I eat up friction LP players above my level. is SP harder to play vs? only if opponent is way better player. Is it difficult to play vs a 2x inverted player who cannot spell SPIN and flat hits everything? Only until you can attack first or figure out how to hit no spin.

Why do so many 2300-2400 hotshot power loopers struggle to win vs 2100 rate Rich Dewitt? Rich knows how to slow ball down, kill spin, and place the ball well... those are legit TT skills and Rich uses 2x inverted... my BH rubber is always more wore out than his rubbers. Until a player can figure out how to discern impact, they gunna struggle... it is a fundamental skill in TT.

We love you for your dedication to TT... you would not be posting so enthusiastically for so long here if you did not have true love for tt. We respect that and people who do not respect that are worse than head in azz syndrome.

I like Tony's point about diversity of play styles. When you had a ball that LP could better manipulate spin (Celluloid 38 and 40) there were so many different play styles going on. That was GREAT for our sport.

Now with 40+ ABS that is EASY to hit through spin, (and make your own) it nudges even amateur players to play advanced offensive strokes (flip, counter vs topspin) like a boss at a relatively low level.

I see professionally trained and some self trained players doing a rally that goes like serve under, flip, counter the flip, counter the counter, counter that counter even more fast and win point... I see 1000-1200 rated players playing this in California now.

This was UNHEARD of 5 yrs ago. Now it is commonplace. The larger new gen ABS ball with a truer bounce allows for this kind of play.

I have always advocated for LP players. When ITTF banned frictionless, literally every nation copy/paste the ittf laws into theit national assn laws... and forced out a large amount of players. In USA, we need every damn body we can muster. LA area, bay area, Dallas, NYC, Florida always gunna have a base, but the rest of the nation really struggles to make any TT action. We need everyone.

No sir.
I respect that people appreciate the variation of LP. I think that's a reasonable opinion.

I simply have a different view. Different minds can reach different reasonable conclusions.

 

[Der_Echte]

While we still on that train, let's talk about who IS NOT COMPLAINING about no boosting H3... zeio.

If I remember right, zeio posted a short vid where he played H3 unboosted... and he played it at a level maybe only 3-5% of USA players play at.

 

[Der_Echte]

No sir.
I respect that people appreciate the variation of LP. I think that's a reasonable opinion.

I simply have a different view. Different minds can reach different reasonable conclusions.

TB, that is a super fair post.

 

[Jan_]

Me minding my own business happily looping to my heart's content:

Then came LP blocker to spoil my day:

Ban the pips! Ban the pips!

Here's advice, push the stupid backspin. Then attack.

 

[Jan_]

Even playing field. All rubbers should have the same spin-nature. You shouldn't be able to produce topspin by chopping and produce underspin by blocking.

What would be the point in that? It would be just like tennis.

 

[vvk1]

I like TensorB's description of "asymmetric capability", a nice term that sums up the frustration many players have when they encounter LPs in the early stages of their development IMO.

Put simply (because what I take from this discussion - as often happens with this subject - is people love to point the finger and call other players "lazy") - not everyone has the same opportunity, or awareness, to train against LP because players who use them are in the minority. Lack of familiarity is the prime advantage LP players have - they present "common" (best not to use the word "normal" here I think) technique, but result in opposite spin results on the ball. In a sport where reaction times are low and high-speed, high-intensity training against "common" style players is the norm, preparing for this almost complete change of direction is not as easy as some make it out to be.

Once a player has enough experience against LP, they become a net disadvantage IMO. But gaining that experience can be tough, you might not be lucky enough to have a practice partner who uses them, or a coach who is prepared to train you against them (people guard their "dark arts" closely). I don't think it's particularly fair to label all players without that experience as lazy, or stupid.

Personally - I like the variety LP, MP, SP brings. But I also recognise the annoyance their use brings, especially for developing players. Getting juniors over this hurdle is something we all can (and should?) help with for several reasons - keeping players in the game, ensuring pip-out rubbers stay legal, encouraging older players to stay playing, improving awareness of spin and spin manipulation. But there's a difference between supporting players who are struggling, and just having a go at them and calling them lazy, which shows a kind of laziness itself if you ask me. Help players where you can please, don't just criticize them. I keep a cheapo SP and LP bat in my bag for this reason - if players at my club want to discuss and experiment against them, I'm always ready and happy to do so.

IMO, it is a somewhat disingenuous argument to use "asymmetric capability" as a justification for the frustration some people feel when playing against {L|M|S}Ps.

What about playing left-handed players, penholders (and don't get me started on left-handed penholders ) or younger/more athletic players or literally better players for that matter? Not everyone has the same opportunity to practice against these and improve either and yet there are no regularly appearing threads on TT forums calling to ban these players.

At the same time people complaining about LPs/antispin/etc could not be bothered to google "how long pips work" and read the most excellent guides Greg Letts prepared for them. Even when you post the links, some reply "cannot be bothered to read, please summarize". Then it turns out they cannot be bothered to read even a one paragraph summary Samson Dubina wrote for them either.

Some people really don't want to learn and they often seem to have the loudest voices ...

 

[Jan_]

IMO, it is a somewhat disingenuous argument to use "asymmetric capability" as a justification for the frustration some people feel when playing against {L|M|S}Ps.

What about playing left-handed players, penholders (and don't get me started on left-handed penholders ) or younger/more athletic players or literally better players for that matter? Not everyone has the same opportunity to practice against these and improve either and yet there are no regularly appearing threads on TT forums calling to ban these players.

At the same time people complaining about LPs/antispin/etc could not be bothered to goggle "how long pips work" and read the most excellent guides Greg Letts prepared for them. Even when you post the links, some reply "cannot be bothered to read, please summarize". Then it turns out they cannot be bothered to read even a one paragraph summary Samson Dubina wrote for them either.

Some people really don't want to learn and they often seem to have the loudest voices ...

Exactly what I'm trying to get at. People say using pips is unfair but they don't even bother to do the bare minimum of reading a simple paper on how they work and how to beat them.

 

[lightspin]

I find playing long pips pretty easy unless the player completely outclasses me. However I would still ban them from play. Table tennis is already viewed as a sideshow by the general public and seeing long pips in action is just going to turn off most spectators. It makes table tennis look less like a sport and more like a joke. I think we also lose a lot of potential players who are having fun playing against inverted then run into an "old man junker" and get crushed then quit wondering why they are wasting their time with such a "sport." At least locally I see a lot more people playing casually. A great way to get them to quit immediately is to confuse and frustrate them with long pips or some other weird surface.

 

[AndySmith]

IMO, it is a somewhat disingenuous argument to use "asymmetric capability" as a justification for the frustration some people feel when playing against {L|M|S}Ps.

What about playing left-handed players, penholders (and don't get me started on left-handed penholders ) or younger/more athletic players or literally better players for that matter? Not everyone has the same opportunity to practice against these and improve either and yet there are no regularly appearing threads on TT forums calling to ban these players.

At the same time people complaining about LPs/antispin/etc could not be bothered to goggle "how long pips work" and read the most excellent guides Greg Letts prepared for them. Even when you post the links, some reply "cannot be bothered to read, please summarize". Then it turns out they cannot be bothered to read even a one paragraph summary Samson Dubina wrote for them either.

Some people really don't want to learn and they often seem to have the loudest voices ...

This is one of those positions that I think seems reasonable in theory, but isn't a sensible position in practice. Lefties do have an advantage, and it is asymmetric, but that doesn't mean it gives the same scale or effect of advantage. Plus, playing left-handed is (generally) not a choice, and there's no sensible option to ban left handers (not that I want to see pips players banned either, but you could ban pips rubbers in practical terms, if you see what I mean).

If I see a leftie push a ball, or a penholder, as a newish player with decent exposure to "standard" rubbers I can make reasonable assumptions about what's going on, even in the highly unlikely event that I've never seen a left handed or pen player before. The disruption effect of LP is that, all things being equal, the ball is now doing the total opposite of what you would expect. This is a far bigger cognitive jump for a player to make, when compared to the other options you give. So it is, and always has been, a question of the scale of the unusual effect a player must negotiate. This is why, for me, the frictionless ban was important, but banning pips isn't necessary. We all have our opinions on what level of madness we deem acceptable. Banning left handers = obvious bonkers proposition. Banning pips = half-understandable response to frustration of players who are new-ish to the sport, but hopefully not given serious consideration by the powers that be.

And sure, if we close our eyes and imagine a player who has access to all the resources they need to adapt and adjust to playing pips players in their early stages but chooses not to put the effort in, then fine. They suck, we should totally ignore this very specific player who fits this exact characterisation. But in my experience, in the real world, most of the people who struggle with pips are juniors (or players without a support network) and it's a battle for the coaches and clubs to overcome. And they do overcome, with positive support and the right kind of training / encouragement.

 

[Jan_]

I find playing long pips pretty easy unless the player completely outclasses me. However I would still ban them from play. Table tennis is already viewed as a sideshow by the general public and seeing long pips in action is just going to turn off most spectators. It makes table tennis look less like a sport and more like a joke. I think we also lose a lot of potential players who are having fun playing against inverted then run into an "old man junker" and get crushed then quit wondering why they are wasting their time with such a "sport." At least locally I see a lot more people playing casually. A great way to get them to quit immediately is to confuse and frustrate them with long pips or some other weird surface.

By that logic many players that use pips also will quit. Long pips are also for classic defense with chopping. Tt is already a sport filled with cancer, I know veterans that microwave their rubbers to make them spinless like glass. Pips at least are a legal way to change the game a bit.

It's like saying we should ban snipers from call of duty because I get killed at a distance. Yes but up close you have the upper hand, it's not fair getting rid of something because it makes the sport different, variety is what keeps a sport interesting and fun to play.

 

[Der_Echte]

By that logic many players that use pips also will quit. Long pips are also for classic defense with chopping. Tt is already a sport filled with cancer, I know veterans that microwave their rubbers to make them spinless like glass. Pips at least are a legal way to change the game a bit.

It's like saying we should ban snipers from call of duty because I get killed at a distance. Yes but up close you have the upper hand, it's not fair getting rid of something because it makes the sport different, variety is what keeps a sport interesting and fun to play.

I also know a gazillion TTD members who obsess about boosting their inverted rubbers... and drool like crazy talking about it on a daily basis. We see threads about this multiple times a week on average.

Is boosting a rubber to drastically change its performance LESS, EQUALLY, or MOAR bad than using LPs or making them slippery?

Disclosure: Der_Echte is 2x inverted offensive player who does not boost hiz rubbers and iz keeping it real.

 

[vvk1]

This is one of those positions that I think seems reasonable in theory, but isn't a sensible position in practice. Lefties do have an advantage, and it is asymmetric, but that doesn't mean it gives the same scale or effect of advantage. Plus, playing left-handed is (generally) not a choice, and there's no sensible option to ban left handers (not that I want to see pips players banned either, but you could ban pips rubbers in practical terms, if you see what I mean).

If I see a leftie push a ball, or a penholder, as a newish player with decent exposure to "standard" rubbers I can make reasonable assumptions about what's going on, even in the highly unlikely event that I've never seen a left handed or pen player before. The disruption effect of LP is that, all things being equal, the ball is now doing the total opposite of what you would expect. This is a far bigger cognitive jump for a player to make, when compared to the other options you give. So it is, and always has been, a question of the scale of the unusual effect a player must negotiate. This is why, for me, the frictionless ban was important, but banning pips isn't necessary. We all have our opinions on what level of madness we deem acceptable. Banning left handers = obvious bonkers proposition. Banning pips = half-understandable response to frustration of players who are new-ish to the sport, but hopefully not given serious consideration by the powers that be.

And sure, if we close our eyes and imagine a player who has access to all the resources they need to adapt and adjust to playing pips players in their early stages but chooses not to put the effort in, then fine. They suck, we should totally ignore this very specific player who fits this exact characterisation. But in my experience, in the real world, most of the people who struggle with pips are juniors (or players without a support network) and it's a battle for the coaches and clubs to overcome. And they do overcome, with positive support and the right kind of training / encouragement.

Fair points, Andy. And of course, I did exaggerate a bit to make my argument.

To be honest, most people I've met in real life (and I suspect online) who struggle (and complain about) LPs/antispin are adults, not juniors. Some even wear it like a badge of honour. Uncoached juniors, like most beginners, tend to make unforced mistakes regardless of the opponent's equipment. Coached juniors play mostly other coached juniors who overwhelmingly do not use LPs. It just does not seem that LPs are that much of an issue for them till they go the first senior tournament like a Grand Prix. And yes, they sometimes lose to an occasional LP adult player in a lower band. Next tournament these coached juniors usually improve so much that they literally blast the same LP players off table. Of course, then they play LP players in higher bands who actually know what they are doing, and beating these requires much more than understanding how LPs work ...

 

[vanjr]

The best thing about LP play is NOT winning. The best thing is having someone with some 300-400 dollar ZLC butterfly blade and two sheets of Dignics 09C tell me that I had an unfair equipment advantage, lol. Or that I didn't beat them, but my 25 dollar sheet of LP did. Or them not recognizing I beat them by serving short, or by placement, not power.

 

[Jan_]

I also know a gazillion TTD members who obsess about boosting their inverted rubbers... and drool like crazy talking about it on a daily basis. We see threads about this multiple times a week on average.

Is boosting a rubber to drastically change its performance LESS, EQUALLY, or MOAR bad than using LPs or making them slippery?

Disclosure: Der_Echte is 2x inverted offensive player who does not boost hiz rubbers and iz keeping it real.

No, I'm talking about players that microwave INVERTED rubbers, not pips.

 

[NextLevel]

While we still on that train, let's talk about who IS NOT COMPLAINING about no boosting H3... zeio.

If I remember right, zeio posted a short vid where he played H3 unboosted... and he played it at a level maybe only 3-5% of USA players play at.

I play with unboosted H3. It's now easier than ever to play with, and I got tired of losing to players using H3. I couldn't get them to ban H3 so I decided to use it myself.

 

[Kopp]

This is the direction our sport needs to go in

Wow! So much fun to watch. This will bring spectators from whole over the world to see table tennis! ESPN, Sky Sports, beIN & many more sport channels will be profiting from TT coverage.

p.s. in your dreams 🤣