WTT Macao 2023

[Tony's Table Tennis]

ML, FZD, and to a lesser degree ZJK, XX and WH have given people a skewed view of table tennis success. I also blame the lack of young strong players coming out of Europe, a point zeio has made. I used to think the issue was Chinese dominance but when you realize that the best 3 European players of the last decade were Boll, Ovtcharov and Samsonov, the problem becomes clear that Europe just didn't produce any TT players to replace the Waldner generation, people like Saive, Primorac, Schlager played for too long and a few others with promise like Maze got injured. People put down Dima for not beating the Chinese but he is clearly the best European player of his generation. If Japan didn't have its youth movement, Mizutani and Niwa would still be playing. While the likes of Moregardh and Lebrun can be studied, the difference is clear to me that the new young guys play with a combination of speed, athleticism, power and variation that was just missing from the people who dominated the last generation of new comers. So it will be far more interesting to see what the Chinese come up with to lock up these new upcoming players. Because when Lebrun plays the forehand pivot, you could replace him with a Chinese player and no one would tell the difference. So he has the power that someone like Niwa clearly lacked.

That Boll can still medal in 2021 is a big symptom of the the problem. Thankfully Moregardh gave him a bronze so that is a sign of the solution. Europe just needs to develop more great players and I think there are clearly much more coming out from France and Poland that will make TT more interesting and keep the CNT excited.

Don't get me wrong, the problem is not uniquely European, if Lin Yun Ju did not exist for example, CCY would still be clearly on top of Taiwan and I have discussed Japan as well. Korea is also trying to get players. But the dominance of players into the 40s in countries in Europe is a symptom of the problem.

I agree Europe has a huge problem with next generation, and we have spent a whole generation saying this already.
And the most important issue is to know where the problem is, so it can be tackled.
Sweden is clear, the pool of players has shrunk a lot since Waldner days. What is the reason, I can't really list it in detail.

I do know France and Romania is on the up.
Other countries may be on the decrease.
So when most of the countries in Europe are having less of everything, the chance of "investment" into grooming a super star would also be reduced.

Super stars are not just born and show up at 15 or 20 year old, the amount of money put into grooming them is beyond most people's imagination.
Home school to allow for full time training is the norm now in Asia. I'm not sure if it is the same with the Europeans.

Japan and Korea have professional leagues, so there is some motivation for youngsters to make it a career with income.
Sadly, Taiwan is the only top Asian country that does not have any leagues, yet along a professional league (no leagues for schools/university or seniors). So there is actually no real money to play table tennis. It is only basically a handful of mens and womens that can really have a good income, the rest need to retire as a player and become coaches to have some income.

But then for the super star players, the income gap is so much greater than say position number 5 or 10 in the team. This is why CCY will not retire, since his income as a player would easily be 5 to 10 times higher than him being a "coach".

LYJ is actually lucky to born in this era, where there is actually some money for an Olympic medalist (potential). Chuang did benefit (in the later bit of his career), while the likes of Chiang and Chang did not have such luxury.
Lin is earning so much more than Chuang did at he same age (maybe even 1 year of Lin could be a good few years of Chuang).

Maybe if the rest of the bunch, had 50%~80% of what Lin received, we would of seen a lot more players out of Taiwan still in the picture as players.

And because of Lin and the options to get funding, there are actually so many 11 or 12 year old kids now, that are already moving to homeschooling, and one of them is actually more "BH trained" than Lin was at 11 years old. So, it will be very interesting to see how these new cadets (with tons of investments) turn out to be.

But then again, Taiwan's national team system is really hard to get in. Ask Feng who missed the cut (cut by either WR50, or national trials - which he failed to get in), and now Feng is not allowed to play internationals until he gets back in the team. Funny enough his WR increased from 68 to 50 something (mostly due to many people fallen out of the list with expired points), so he is a few spots to get automatic entry - but it came 4 months too late (trials was in Dec). Feng had few good wins against top European players this time last year, and he is only 20 years old and is a solid number 3 already.

Kao is the new potential - potential do be WR30~50 too, already 80 something and 18 years old. We may still need to wait a year or two until Guo comes into the WTT senior circuit. He has beaten Lin and Chiang to become the youngest national player (at age 13). He still have some grooming and if it comes out well, he is a top 20 potential too.

There is a lot of juniors in Taiwan with Lin or close to Lin potential.
I believe it is the same in Japan and Korea with its own.
Now, how about the other Europeans? any one knows?

 

[blahness]

I wouldn't normally comment of this but there's quite a bit of negative thought in that statement above that was written. Unexpected to be honest.... This place and users are normally quite light hearted... as well.

It was intentional to poke fun at ppl who think casual racism is acceptable, and when called out on it claim other ppl are snowflakes, up until they're on the receiving end LOL. Suddenly it's not so funny eh?

 

[Ghostzen]

It was intentional to poke fun at ppl who think casual racism is acceptable, and when called out on it claim other ppl are snowflakes, up until they're on the receiving end LOL. Suddenly it's not so funny eh?

Just didn't expect it from you. All good my friend. lets get back to TT.

 

[NextLevel]

I agree Europe has a huge problem with next generation, and we have spent a whole generation saying this already.
And the most important issue is to know where the problem is, so it can be tackled.
Sweden is clear, the pool of players has shrunk a lot since Waldner days. What is the reason, I can't really list it in detail.

I do know France and Romania is on the up.
Other countries may be on the decrease.
So when most of the countries in Europe are having less of everything, the chance of "investment" into grooming a super star would also be reduced.

Super stars are not just born and show up at 15 or 20 year old, the amount of money put into grooming them is beyond most people's imagination.
Home school to allow for full time training is the norm now in Asia. I'm not sure if it is the same with the Europeans.

Japan and Korea have professional leagues, so there is some motivation for youngsters to make it a career with income.
Sadly, Taiwan is the only top Asian country that does not have any leagues, yet along a professional league (no leagues for schools/university or seniors). So there is actually no real money to play table tennis. It is only basically a handful of mens and womens that can really have a good income, the rest need to retire as a player and become coaches to have some income.

But then for the super star players, the income gap is so much greater than say position number 5 or 10 in the team. This is why CCY will not retire, since his income as a player would easily be 5 to 10 times higher than him being a "coach".

LYJ is actually lucky to born in this era, where there is actually some money for an Olympic medalist (potential). Chuang did benefit (in the later bit of his career), while the likes of Chiang and Chang did not have such luxury.
Lin is earning so much more than Chuang did at he same age (maybe even 1 year of Lin could be a good few years of Chuang).

Maybe if the rest of the bunch, had 50%~80% of what Lin received, we would of seen a lot more players out of Taiwan still in the picture as players.

And because of Lin and the options to get funding, there are actually so many 11 or 12 year old kids now, that are already moving to homeschooling, and one of them is actually more "BH trained" than Lin was at 11 years old. So, it will be very interesting to see how these new cadets (with tons of investments) turn out to be.

But then again, Taiwan's national team system is really hard to get in. Ask Feng who missed the cut (cut by either WR50, or national trials - which he failed to get in), and now Feng is not allowed to play internationals until he gets back in the team. Funny enough his WR increased from 68 to 50 something (mostly due to many people fallen out of the list with expired points), so he is a few spots to get automatic entry - but it came 4 months too late (trials was in Dec). Feng had few good wins against top European players this time last year, and he is only 20 years old and is a solid number 3 already.

Kao is the new potential - potential do be WR30~50 too, already 80 something and 18 years old. We may still need to wait a year or two until Guo comes into the WTT senior circuit. He has beaten Lin and Chiang to become the youngest national player (at age 13). He still have some grooming and if it comes out well, he is a top 20 potential too.

There is a lot of juniors in Taiwan with Lin or close to Lin potential.
I believe it is the same in Japan and Korea with its own.
Now, how about the other Europeans? any one knows?

France and Poland have some really strong players in the pipeline and I suspect Sweden and Germany do too. But I will let the people who live there speak to them.

Australia also has an interesting young player at 14 that will be interesting to see where he ends up. Currently lives in the USA.

 

[NextLevel]

And one more night thought. Isn't it time for Hugo to change inventory? In my opinion, he is one person in the top ten who does not play with sticky rubbers, correct me if I'm wrong

Such changes are very hard at the top level. But I suspect if he gets desperate he will investigate. But he can't make progress with his current short game issues. But top 10 is a pretty high bar to make progress from. He is still a bronze medal candidate in Tokyo.

 

[Gtsnake]

The womens final was much more entertaining than the mens. It just seems liked ML gave up or stopped trying after down 2-0. He just didn't have the fire or eye of the tiger anymore. He may have been discouraged because everything he tried to do WCQ had an answer to. WCQ was playing out of his mind. He couldn't do anything wrong. It seemed like he was playing possessed.

 

[Kopp]

.. It just seems liked ML gave up or stopped trying after down 2-0. He just didn't have the fire or eye of the tiger anymore. ..

It's difficult to get motivated when you've already won everything TT has to offer.

 

[NextLevel]

The womens final was much more entertaining than the mens. It just seems liked ML gave up or stopped trying after down 2-0. He just didn't have the fire or eye of the tiger anymore. He may have been discouraged because everything he tried to do WCQ had an answer to. WCQ was playing out of his mind. He couldn't do anything wrong. It seemed like he was playing possessed.

They are battling for an Olympic spot, a loss in this match would have hurt WCQ much more than ML. The next battleground is the WTTC and the draw there will be interesting.

 

[Gtsnake]

So you're saying that ML got to the finals and since it doesn't mean as much to him as WCQ that he just let him win? It's hard to believe that an elite athlete would play hard to get to a tournament finals and just throw the match due to politics?

I guess since all finalists were from the same team there are other motivations at play here than just winning.

 

[Dr Evil]

They are battling for an Olympic spot, a loss in this match would have hurt WCQ much more than ML. The next battleground is the WTTC and the draw there will be interesting.

I think age and WCQ make this the toughest challenge of Ma Long's career. I wouldn't put it past him if he can stay healthy, though WCQ has the inside track.

 

[zeio]

So you're saying that ML got to the finals and since it doesn't mean as much to him as WCQ that he just let him win? It's hard to believe that an elite athlete would play hard to get to a tournament finals and just throw the match due to politics?

I guess since all finalists were from the same team there are other motivations at play here than just winning.

Perhaps it would help to view it with the Chinese mentality here.

The objective is to rendezvous in the final. The missions for WCQ and ML were accomplished yesterday. The final is just icing on the cake. The past few WTT events are the start. WTTC 2023 is the checkpoint. Paris 2024 is the finish.

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...ing-oncourt-coaching-for-just-the-cnt#1086165

Other countries can't compete with China on a consistent basis because they treat table tennis as an individual sport. Not the case for China. In articles and interviews, they always talk about "making use of team advantage", "comprehensive assessment, reasonable layout." Always working as a team, as a group, not only for team events, but also for individual events. They have this macro-perspective, this big picture in mind at all times.

For example, in the article below, LGL mentions those concepts and how XX, should put more energy on the XD instead of playing in all 3 events in Tokyo 2020, considering his age and that he's a doubles specialist.

Another example is SYS. Many were surprised when they opted for SYS over ZYL for the WTTC 2019. But it's very clear by now their objective is to "use" her to counter Ito. They've put in so much effort and time to help her climb up the ranking over the past year.

China is a collective culture that places collective needs over individual needs. Seeing how CNT do things from individualistic point of view, some of their actions appear unfair. I'll give you another example of this, every single CNT training facility has huge banners with messages like "National prestige over everything else." CNT players are expected to work hard and still make necessary sacrifices for national prestige.
Despite being an American, I think CNT system makes sense. It's almost like they are incorporating the game theory in the system. It's not just about winning individually, but also about winning as a team.

 

[Dr Evil]

zeio said:

Other countries can't compete with China on a consistent basis because they treat table tennis as an individual sport. Not the case for China. In articles and interviews, they always talk about "making use of team advantage", "comprehensive assessment, reasonable layout." Always working as a team, as a group, not only for team events, but also for individual events.

*

Other countries don't treat tt any differently than China. It's just a numbers game, as in more players, coaches and money. Any player would have a "team advantage" if he could practice with the CNT. The greatest players of the past whether Chinese or not (e.g., Waldner, Persson) are typically part of a golden generation with a team culture. But it takes a few player generations to build such a team, and it's impossible if the most talented players can't make a living wage from leagues and tournaments.

 

[NextLevel]

So you're saying that ML got to the finals and since it doesn't mean as much to him as WCQ that he just let him win? It's hard to believe that an elite athlete would play hard to get to a tournament finals and just throw the match due to politics?

I guess since all finalists were from the same team there are other motivations at play here than just winning.

I wouldn't go as far as let him win. WCQ clearly outplayed him and Ma Long knew he had no chance. But Ma Long will not be counted out of the Olympics on the basis of this result and ML winning here would have boosted his case for being able to handle fast opponents more. WCQ already has a help and a hindrance as the Mixed Doubles player. He is virtually guaranteed an Olympiv spot, the question is whether he can play two events or three.

 

[GarField000]

Matches between WCQ vs ML the most wins went to WCQ. So not that strange that a young Lion is winning from the older one.

It's not that hard to explain why China is so dominant in this sport.
Players at a very young age play tabletennis and start te learn and compete.
The competiton is VERY large and many many competitors at all ages.

In moest european countries it's just one off the sports and low on the ladder.
If I look at my country it's even hard to get a 6 full teams at the highest level to compete.
At female level we got 22 that are the better levels. But even the top 10 in rating already have a difference off 200 points. The realy good players go play in germany as that level is much higher.
This is NOTHING compared to china, japan or korea.

 

[blahness]

The womens final was much more entertaining than the mens. It just seems liked ML gave up or stopped trying after down 2-0. He just didn't have the fire or eye of the tiger anymore. He may have been discouraged because everything he tried to do WCQ had an answer to. WCQ was playing out of his mind. He couldn't do anything wrong. It seemed like he was playing possessed.

Wang Chuqin was in crazy form and playing possessed. Harimoto was playing quite good actually and WCQ simply demolished him this time. Same with Ma Long.

He didn't even smile after winning - he was so in the zone.

Ma Long can't do much against WCQ in this kind of form. Unlike FZD, WCQ actually has crazy good serve/receive skills so Ma Long's tricks don't really work the same way it does against FZD.
Furthermore, Ma Long did not want to expose his true weapons before the real deal (WTTC 2023).