Question on stepping around

nivekkan · Sep 26, 2019

It is a commonly use strategy to hit harder because forehand inherently hit harder, add deception on placement and cover a weak backhand due to bad technique of the backhand. What I don't understand is that why is stepping around an exclusive thing for forehand?

Now, assume that your forehand and backhand are equal in terms of technique (timing, accuracy, consistency etc.). It makes sense to do a forehand-step-around (step around to attack with forehand on the backhand side) during a backhand corner to corner rally but do you ever see people do a backhand-step-around during a forehand rally? If there is any video, please let me know.

I don't think I see a lot of that. I mean, sure there is no increase in power like a forehand-step-around can give you but the added advantage of increased attacking angle remains and your next line of attack is less obvious. Plus, you can always add side spin to it with backhand in side out or back hand hooking loop to widen the angle. However, if you try to change the angle by attacking down the line or even bend it with forehand inside out during a forehand corner to corner rally, you may not be able to create an wide of as angle and it is extremely obvious.

I can see some advantage with a backhand step around. What do you think?
(oops. it is the equipment section

sorry)

yoass · Sep 26, 2019

It isn’t. Opening short(ish) serves to the FH by stepping in and using a BH flick instead of a FH is quite common.

BryanY · Sep 26, 2019

yoass said:
It isn’t. Opening short(ish) serves to the FH by stepping in and using a BH flick instead of a FH is quite common.

Yeah, Hugo Calderano does it a lot.

nivekkan · Sep 26, 2019

yoass said:
It isn’t. Opening short(ish) serves to the FH by stepping in and using a BH flick instead of a FH is quite common.

Sorry I think I wasn't being clear enough. I meant fast rallies not serve and return. Obviously, it has to be mid to long distance as well because there is no time for step around if both players are playing close to the table

nivekkan · Sep 26, 2019

BryanY said:
Yeah, Hugo Calderano does it a lot.

What does joola nobilis PBO-c feel like to use? I heard that the non-wood player is basically the same as butterfly's ZLC. How does it compare to the butterfly ZLC blades?

BryanY · Sep 26, 2019

nivekkan said:
What does joola nobilis PBO-c feel like to use? I heard that the non-wood player is basically the same as butterfly's ZLC. How does it compare to the butterfly ZLC blades?

PBO is the technical term for Zylon. So yeah PBO-c = ZLC.

I love the Nobilis. The thick hinoki outerplies are soft enough that it helps me during touch play and springy enough that my hits and blocks are very quick. Looping has decent control and speed. The PBO-c is positioned closer to the middle of the blade, so control isn’t bad. Dan / TTD did a review of the blade.

The composition of the blade is similar to the Butterfly Garaydia ZLC and the Amultart. The speed is probably somewhere in between the the two blades. Also the handle and finish of the Nobilis is very nice.

Ilia Minkin · Sep 26, 2019

At amateur level there are people with good a backhand loop and a weak forehand. Those guys do play BH from the FH side quite often.

zeio · Sep 26, 2019

nivekkan said:
What I don't understand is that why is stepping around an exclusive thing for forehand?

The very definition of stepping around is to use the FH, similar to a reserved word in computer programming. There's a specific Chinese term for the footwork involved when stepping around - 側身步, literally "side body step." Another footwork that's meant for FH is 交叉步(cross(over) footwork).

Bobrow tends to use the expression "turning the corner" for that. An excellent expression there as it actually depicts the movement of turning around the BH corner.

zeio · Sep 27, 2019

Dr Evil · Sep 27, 2019

Not enough reach on backhand to make step around workable in a fast rally. Fine if you're going for an all or nothing kill shot but otherwise a bad tactic even for the quickest players.

lVegita · Sep 27, 2019

zeio said:

Did you just subbed an uploaded it just to illustrate this thread? Duuuude, you’re the MVP.

zeio · Sep 27, 2019

lVegita said:
Did you just subbed an uploaded it just to illustrate this thread? Duuuude, you’re the MVP.

I don't even know why I'm doing this, perhaps out of pure passion for table tennis.

UpSideDownCarl · Sep 27, 2019

yoass said:
It isn’t. Opening short(ish) serves to the FH by stepping in and using a BH flick instead of a FH is quite common.

nivekkan said:
Sorry I think I wasn't being clear enough. I meant fast rallies not serve and return. Obviously, it has to be mid to long distance as well because there is no time for step around if both players are playing close to the table

Sorry. But I think Yoass has a point and you are dismissing it. It is close to the table, you have to have good footwork, you are moving around the FH to take a ball on the FH side with the BH. It happens all the time over the table.

But for what you are talking about, from further away, in long distance rallies, is there an advantage for you to use a BH? Would it give you any kind of edge from far away? Because of how much power you lose on the BH in TT, I cannot think of a reason to do it from mid or long distance. The reason is because of how much smaller and shorter the BH stroke is. How much less you use your body and how much of the stroke is from the movement of the elbow joint (forearm).

But the same reasons that cause a BH to be at a mechanical disadvantage from farther away, cause the BH to be at a mechanical advantage over the table. Over the table you can still take a fairly full BH stroke.

So when a player moves all the way over to the FH side to take a serve or push with the BH, that would be the only real reason to do that where the BH has the mechanical advantage over the FH.

Lula · Sep 27, 2019

I think that most of the players have more power in the forehand because of the mechanics so there is No reason to work around with backhand.

Like someone else mention i can also imagine that it is harder to stand correct because you want to hit the ball in front of you. The reach is not the same.

Tradition. We that have played tabletennis is not used to moving this way.

nivekkan · Sep 27, 2019

UpSideDownCarl said:
Sorry. But I think Yoass has a point and you are dismissing it.

He is absolutely right. But that is not what I don't understand about.

UpSideDownCarl said:
The reason is because of how much smaller and shorter the BH stroke is. How much less you use your body and how much of the stroke is from the movement of the elbow joint (forearm).

But why not just use a longer stroke for your backhand as well? Like in badminton or tennis where you step you left foot around your back or step your right foot in front so that weight can be transferred from the foot behind to the foot in front. Also turn you shoulder to slightly show you back to the opponent so that you can unwind the twisting to release power. Then, combine all that with your elbow and wrist to flick at the last moment just like how you do it with the short stroke.

This is the main thing I don't quite understand. Why not use a longer stroke that involve the whole body?

yoass · Sep 27, 2019

nivekkan said:
But why not just use a longer stroke for your backhand as well? (…) Why not use a longer stroke that involve the whole body?

Mechanics. You’re transferring power to the ball by means of a system of connected levers (your limbs).

These limbs extend differently between your FH and BH zone, and since you’re leveraging force over these distances you get a substantial inequality in momentum.

nivekkan · Sep 27, 2019

yoass said:
you’re leveraging force over these distances you get a substantial inequality in momentum

What doesn't it mean when you apply it to table tennis and you body? Can you elaborate please? What would be the real world results?

yoass · Sep 27, 2019

You extend your arm from your body on an FH hit. Your upper arm/lower arm/wrist swing over a longer distance.

On a BH hit, your upper arm is close to the body and nearly all if the travel comes from lower arm and wrist.

Same force over a longer distance means greater momentum. And consider two pendulums, swinging the same mass with the same angular velocity/frequency. The end point of the longer pendulum has a longer trajectory and greater maximum directionsl velocity.

This is your FH vs your BH.

nivekkan · Sep 27, 2019

yoass said:
You extend your arm from your body on an FH hit. Your upper arm/lower arm/wrist swing over a longer distance.

On a BH hit, your upper arm is close to the body and nearly all if the travel comes from lower arm and wrist.

That was the argument that carl was making. He said that during a backhand stroke, your arm only moves a short distance(assuming that you directly facing the table or your shoulder is parallel to the table). However, I replied to this issue with the question of why not stand sideways(stepping around) such that your right shoulder is facing the table or even slightly showing your back so that your upper arm have more room to accelerate when swinging outward. Plus, now you can use your waist more by turning and use weight transfer which are not possible when standing parallel to the table with a short stroke.

zeio · Sep 27, 2019

BH is comparable to FH in power under certain conditions.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...Backhand-power&p=289783&viewfull=1#post289783

Question on stepping around

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