Any Service Advice for Me?

[UpSideDownCarl]

I never thought of my long backspin serve as "dead". People pop it up like no spin but I always just assumed it was because of the pace I put on the ball. A backspin ball that's fast can actually be treated as no spin.

A player could use the momentum of the ball as their source of power behind it. regardless, I like it. People don't treat it correctly and try to chop it, giving me an easy 3rd ball

That long backhand serve, if it helps you in a game, if people try to push that serve, then they are lower level than you and you should try to play better opponents as well. If the drill wasn't to try and push it, I would never have thought of pushing it.

And in that drill, for your level, the whole point should probably be, for you to get low, heavy, well placed pushes like a higher level player might give you if they actually pushed. So you can get used to moving to and looping pushes that are higher level. Smacking a high ball, you do that well. You don't need to work on it. [emoji2]


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[Archosaurus]

About pushes on serve receive:

Do you always want them loaded? I know it's a good idea to push a loaded push short, or deep into the opponent, but is a deliberate floating push or very short push with little to no spin ever a good idea?

Of course, you're not gonna want to push very high (Unless your opponent is so bad that they will just smack it into the net ) but what about those variations?

 

[NDH]

About pushes on serve receive:

Do you always want them loaded? I know it's a good idea to push a loaded push short, or deep into the opponent, but is a deliberate floating push or very short push with little to no spin ever a good idea?

Of course, you're not gonna want to push very high (Unless your opponent is so bad that they will just smack it into the net ) but what about those variations?

Yeah it's always good to mix it up.

A short push with a little back spin, can be a great shot - If the opponent flicks the ball back, you have can counter and get on the front foot.

If the opponent pushes back to you, it is likely to have little backspin (unless they push long and hard), so you can again get on the front foot.

It all depends on your opponents strengths.

 

[Archosaurus]

I have a friend who I play who really isn't good at attacking unless it's right in his sweetspot, but his defense is great. I can't just hit through him if he's not allowing me to and the bastard will dead block as soon as I get farther away from the table and can actually spin the ball some.

Usually when he serves relatively heavy backspin, enough to discourage me from flicking, I'll load the push. He will then push it with very little backspin very low over the net, and I can't do anything offensive with that ball. It practically drops right over the net.

If I give him a push that's long with very little backspin, he will attack it, but my attack is superior, so it benefits me.
If I give him a push that's very short with very little backspin, his push will lack enough in the quality department to be flicked, usually because it's high due to him misreading it.


We've been playing for over a year together, and he's got used to my loaded pushes. That's why they're not always as effective as mixing it up.

I can imagine the effectiveness of setting some patterns in your short game, then breaking them deliberately with a more floaty push, against a person who doesn't know you are even capable of doing that.

So the prospect of getting to a level (Apart from perhaps top 100's) where everyone can kill anything that isn't heavy isn't entirely correct and this makes some sense.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Wow. The thread hikjack is in full effect. It seems like all that fuss about 3 dimensional/2 dimensional--yes, about SEMANTICS--started with someone being insistent about wanting to know what I meant.

Well, here is what I meant when I made the statement. From training with him for 2 hours and going through a variety of drills including game simulation drills, I found him to be solid in his technique. All his strokes are good: serves, pushes, chops, loops, drives, counter-hits. There isn't a stand out weakness. He also can link all of those things so that he is not one of those guys who look good while training and then play a match and are no good at connecting shots, thinking on their feet or playing matches. At Shuki's level he is a decently complete player.

But less than 3 dimensional as a player could mean any number of things. I think NDH did a good job at explaining this. But why not take a shot at it myself.

I remember, in the 1990's when I really sucked and didn't really ply, there was a point, for 3 months, between jobs, when I found a TT club and went and played. Most of what I did was hit with the robot because almost everyone there was too good for me to play.

This one time, this guy wanted to play me a match. He had an outfit on that made him look like a pro. He told me he was 1500. At the time I didn't even know what that meant. Anyway, we played and I think we played a best of 5 match. Back then games went to 21 so that was a long match. But we were there to play. He did all these things that, at the time I thought were funny like how he tried to serve from the deep BH side or how he tried to take big shots with his FH from the BH side. These things left him open. He'd move to the BH side and I'd put the ball on the FH side. He'd run over, I'd put it back on the BH side. The match was close. It went to the last game. And I did win. But I never should have been able to play remotely close to his level. From a technical standpoint he was better than me in every way. But he had gaping holes in his understanding of how to apply those techniques in a game situation. Perhaps people who he played who were in the 1500 range did not think of doing the things I did which to me seemed totally simple and obvious. He was 1 dimensional because he could not execute the game plan he was trying to implement. So that is one version of not being 3 dimensional. When I did not fall into his silly traps, he did not know how to adapt to something different.

There was this one time a few years ago I played this guy who is a friend now. He also should be way better than me. His serves are awesome. His FH is beautiful. His game is almost complete. If his BH was as good as his serve and FH, he would be 2100 level minimum. But, his BH is sooooo bad that I can still get matches from him. The matchup of my BH to his BH, I will not lose if I can keep him pinned to his BH. And if he tries to turn for FH when I try to pin him there he gives me an open down the line.

That is a different version of not 3 dimensional. One wing being week.

Some players can hide a missing dimension well enough. But if you find and expose one of those things they are week at, you can start picking apart their game.

Someone whose game is complete and 3 dimensional, they might get their azz kicked by a higher level player. But that is what happens when you play someone better than you. A complete player will be able to adapt to whatever someone on their level throws at them whether they are winning or losing in a match.

Table tennis is a sport of levels. When you do everything solidly at your actual level, I would say you are a complete or 3 dimensional player. But a player 2 levels higher than you, will almost always beat you.

If all you do well is attack, you may be a one dimensional player. If all you are able to do is chop, even if you are a very good player, you might be one dimensional.

All aspects of Shuki's game are developing side by side. That is what I meant when I used the term. He is well coached and pretty darn good.


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[Archosaurus]

That makes good sense.

I used to be that guy in your story. Until I played someone who destroyed me because of how simple my game was. He barely had to try and I was always open somewhere, unless I simply overpowered him or really fought with nail and tooth to get that forehand out. My backhand really sucked.

I noticed that developing my backhand was the key to raising me a level or two above my peers. My backhand used to really stink, but the improvement has been so dramatic that a friend of mine who has been playing with me since my stinking backhand days gets amazed at some backhand shots I can perform, because they were pure fantasy before. Now I can finish a point and rally from both wings.

After that, I developed my push. Then my block. Then my chop. You get the point. Even if I chop maybe once or twice a day, unless I feel like chopping, the skill of being able to defend like that is very valuable and offers so much.

I used to be, and still am, a huge Waldner fan. So I screwed around with shots that I couldn't perform soundly. Now I can perform them at least somewhat solidly, and my game is well beyond what most people would have at this level of experience, barring some damn good coaching. I think there's a lot of good aspects of my game that probably aren't apparent in what I've said/shown to now. At least, that's what I feel when I play people who are actually at my level and I can perform well against them.

 

[Shuki]

That long backhand serve, if it helps you in a game, if people try to push that serve, then they are lower level than you and you should try to play better opponents as well. If the drill wasn't to try and push it, I would never have thought of pushing it.


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This is interesting to me. I definitely am not playing players lower level than me. About 1900-2000 is the average player I'm playing. But I do notice that the pen holders tend to try and push it a lot more than the shake handers. But even so, I'm EXPECTING the shake hand players to attack it. The thing is, when the shakehand player recieves a ball with little backspin to no backspin they can't really RIP it back. Their return may be aggressive but it's not great.

After they realize that their attack isn't strong and they're really just setting me up for my game, I notice they take half a step back before my next serve. That's when I pull the plug and make it short in front of the net. 2 Days ago I saw players talking about the ghost serve and they were pretty bad themselves. They asked me if I could do it and so I tried.

I did it with 3 balls,
The first, successful but it got pretty damn close to the edge of the table before turning around.
The second, Adjustments were made and I shortened the distance but the ball was a bit high. What happened when it was high was a magical moment. The ball bounced once on my side, then once on their's VERY close to the net, and then the ball tried to pull it's way back to my side but instead hit the net and bounced straight down.
Third attempt. Low and not too long. Felt good, Still not going to put it in my arsenal of serves though.

I did all these as forehand pendulums btw. The BIGGEST problem with making service a powerful part of my game, is the fact that all my focus goes toward the serve.

I prefer to keep my focus on countering my opponents attack off my serves or capitalizing off their weaker return.

You're also the first player EVER to tell me my serves aren't up to par. I'm pretty sure this is because I was on autopilot, but then again we were doing a drill where I should have made myself do better on my serves. More than anything during our drills though, I wanted to not **** up during a rally to make myself seem worthy of your time.

 

[Shuki]

About pushes on serve receive:

Do you always want them loaded? I know it's a good idea to push a loaded push short, or deep into the opponent, but is a deliberate floating push or very short push with little to no spin ever a good idea?

Of course, you're not gonna want to push very high (Unless your opponent is so bad that they will just smack it into the net ) but what about those variations?

Can't push a LOADED serve short, part of Seemiller Senior's training consisted of stepping in for the push, and making sure to push it HARD and SPINNY. This guarentees that you can step off the table for your next stroke since if you use enough spin it will force them to give you a longer ball.

 

[Shuki]

Description of 1dv3d and shuki's game

These compliments were a great confidence boost and made me feel really good. I'm nowhere near a decentish level in my own honest opinion so I really want to thank you for all the kind words.

 

[Archosaurus]

Can't push a LOADED serve short, part of Seemiller Senior's training consisted of stepping in for the push, and making sure to push it HARD and SPINNY. This guarentees that you can step off the table for your next stroke since if you use enough spin it will force them to give you a longer ball.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.

Why can't you push a heavy spin serve short? What's preventing it?

Ideally, the way I'd respond to a really loaded serve is to give them a really loaded push deep into their backhand, step back and get into a topspin rally, just what I like. Sometimes things go differently. Sometimes the ball floats over the net with relatively little spin, and goes very short. I can imagine an elite player being able to flick or flip that to oblivion, but I'm not an elite player.

 

[Shuki]

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.

Why can't you push a heavy spin serve short? What's preventing it?

Ideally, the way I'd respond to a really loaded serve is to give them a really loaded push deep into their backhand, step back and get into a topspin rally, just what I like. Sometimes things go differently. Sometimes the ball floats over the net with relatively little spin, and goes very short. I can imagine an elite player being able to flick or flip that to oblivion, but I'm not an elite player.

Explain to me the angle in which you're raquet is when pushing something VERY heavy. If you're both using inverted rubber and neither of them are dead. It's almost always going to go long. Maybe you simply think your chop is more loaded than it is?

 

[Archosaurus]

Explain to me the angle in which you're raquet is when pushing something VERY heavy. If you're both using inverted rubber and neither of them are dead. It's almost always going to go long. Maybe you simply think your chop is more loaded than it is?

My push most likely doesn't have as much backspin as I think it does, and our rubber is most definitely not that spinny compared to pro grade commercial rubber.

I still fail to see why it's seemingly physically impossible to kill the spin from a loaded shot and return it short. We are talking about backspin, right?

 

[Shuki]

My push most likely doesn't have as much backspin as I think it does, and our rubber is most definitely not that spinny compared to pro grade commercial rubber.

I still fail to see why it's seemingly physically impossible to kill the spin from a loaded shot and return it short. We are talking about backspin, right?

Not impossible. Just very difficult, That's why a professional player says to just push heavy and deep so they won't have to deal with a short ball. It's just his style. If you have a good short game keep pushing short. But if your opponent is easily keeping it short off your push you should be able to just flip it to topspin fairly easily.

 

[Archosaurus]

Not impossible. Just very difficult, That's why a professional player says to just push heavy and deep so they won't have to deal with a short ball. It's just his style. If you have a good short game keep pushing short. But if your opponent is easily keeping it short off your push you should be able to just flip it to topspin fairly easily.

Sounds about right.

When I said I can't do anything to the ball, I mostly meant with my current ability and how I usually play. If I'm really on fire, I can get to it early enough and either flip it with my forehand for a winner, if the stars align, or start a rally with my backhand flick otherwise. Even against this guy who can keep most of my pushes short, I can vary the spin and placement a bit and force a long ball that I can attack with either wing.

Usually, if it's a pushing competition, he will eventually push it long and I can use my forehand. Otherwise, I'll push his serve loaded and deep and he'll return it long to my backhand.

I'm not dealing with really good players here, and my short game is quite good because I read somewhere that the quality of a player is determined in how he treats the short game before the attack, so my perspective is a bit different, but I think we're on the same page. I'm good at killing spin, so I can keep shots short that would otherwise probably go long. Against a truly heavy shot, maybe not.

 

[Shuki]

I'm not dealing with really good players here, and my short game is quite good because I read somewhere that the quality of a player is determined in how he treats the short game before the attack, so my perspective is a bit different, but I think we're on the same page. I'm good at killing spin, so I can keep shots short that would otherwise probably go long. Against a truly heavy shot, maybe not.

Good at short game should mean a light backspin, to a nospin ball thats short should be easy for you to flip.

 

[Archosaurus]

Good at short game should mean a light backspin, to a nospin ball thats short should be easy for you to flip.

Well, it is. Pretty much the ideal and basically a free point for me. When it's hard is if I'm not expecting it in the slightest.

I didn't mention in this thread, but our net is a bit busted. So balls that clip the net just plummet. That probably has something to do with it.

 

[Shuki]

Well, it is. Pretty much the ideal and basically a free point for me. When it's hard is if I'm not expecting it in the slightest.

If a short game is a free point for you you should just always serve short. You'll always win. All you need is to earn ONE point off your opponent.

 

[Archosaurus]

If a short game is a free point for you you should just always serve short. You'll always win. All you need is to earn ONE point off your opponent.

I pretty much always serve short against good opponents, exactly because of that. One or two free pop ups or bad returns from them are huge.

Keep in mind this is entirely relative, of course. My short game against a person of similar or slightly greater ability would probably be a little bit over average because of my emphasis on it, but not really that much. I don't think they'd give me more than one free point per game.

Because I don't have regular practice partners, and nowadays I don't even have any good players to play with, I do a ton of serve practice. We're talking hours per day, every workday. That probably has something to do with my short game.

 

[Shuki]

wrong thread

 

[NextLevel]

Totally agree. None of the "helpful" comments from Archo had anything to do with your game. You are well coached. And if your serves are very basic by design there is nothing wrong with that.

That drill we were doing though--short backspin serve, long push, third ball attack--if your short backspin serve ends up being a long dead serve, the ball you get back will not be a useful quality push for improving your opening against. And a long push off of a long dead ball is probably not a return you will get in match play. But your game is solid and three dimensional. And your opening vs backspin is pretty solid.


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For some reason, many people I train with don't get that part. Then they wonder why they don't have a heavy backspin serve at 9-9 in the match. It's training for God's sake!