4th Ball and Beyond!

[ttmonster]

This is a common misconception that comes from trying to learn table tennis technique by watching matches of CNT players on internet

 

[Archosaurus]

I don't see what's wrong with not treating footwork and strokes as completely separate things. They're not that separate in game, and different footwork will require different slightly strokes, will it not?

Now, in game, you're not gonna start swinging before you're relatively in position. Unless you've done something wrong. If you look at footage of pros, there's a clear mechanical sequence to it. I can assure you that they don't think of it like that, though. Feet and hands are not separate in their mind.

Do you consciously think about and adjust your blade angle when you're coming from your backswing to your contact and the blade face is whipping forward? Then why should you split the footwork --> stroke sequence into conscious steps, either?

This doesn't apply to first learning it, of course.


Carl, no I haven't.

 

[laistrogian]

This is a common misconception that comes from trying to learn table tennis technique by watching matches of CNT players on internet

A lot of beginners see the hand swing and such and didn't realize most CNTs have monstrous footwork

 

[Archosaurus]

A lot of beginners see the hand swing and such and didn't realize most CNTs have monstrous footwork

What do you mean "most"?

Everyone at the top level has far above excellent footwork, and even the lower ranked players are very much so excellent.

They just don't look that good to beginners because Xu Xin is so exceptional, so they hide in his shadow, I'd bet.

 

[Shuki]

What do you mean "most"?

Everyone at the top level has far above excellent footwork, and even the lower ranked players are very much so excellent.

They just don't look that good to beginners because Xu Xin is so exceptional, so they hide in his shadow, I'd bet.

I wouldn't consider waldner's footwork monsterous. It's different than anybodys, He's a one step player.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Carl, no I haven't.

Yep. I was pretty sure of that.

So if you stand up out of a chair, you don't think of the actions or sequence of muscle contractions to that enable you to go from sitting to standing. If you had to consciously will each of the actions, the timing, the specifics, the sequence of contractions, you would probably never get up out of the chair. It takes a minimum of 180 different muscles acting in a totally wild orchestra of synergy and opposition to get from seated to standing. If we had to consciously will each separate part of how to run we would never have evolved. We would have just gotten eaten by predators way back when.

But hearing someone who has never done multiball footwork drills talk about the complexity of the timing of all the different actions which all have to happen in an exquisitely refined and timed sequence as though he has done advanced multiball drills, when you can tell from how things are described that the person has not felt what he is presenting himself to have felt, well, it made me smile a bit; perhaps more than a bit.

The training of each of the separate actions to get it so you begin to have the coordination to fit them together, the step by step process of improving things in a way that moves you towards performing higher and higher level combinations of actions, this is what training is about. It is why you progress people through certain skills to get them to progress to the next set of skills. It is why, to get to higher levels of play, you have to progress from easier skills towards harder skills.

If you took a particular footwork drill and and get it so that it is fluid and things fit together, then you progress the drill to make it faster and harder so that when you face a real opponent, transitioning to the ball gets easier as you are able to successfully progress the drills to increased difficulty levels.

You know, the last time I went walking on the moon, it felt really fluid. Everything was just flowing in this way that went together like I was floating. That feeling of weightlessness and the hang time between steps, my legs and my arms, they were really acting as one. You know. It wasn't like they were separate. The steps were the arm movement and the arm movements were the steps.

 

[Archosaurus]

I understand your point, but you don't need to be able to perform something to understand the gist of it.

Shuki, have you seen what kind of balls Waldner could get back in his heyday?

He is also retired and has not been playing at the highest level for quite some time. Although I know we'd not want to believe that.

 

[ttmonster]

Why do you think in table tennis , most top level coaches were top level professionals earlier in their career ?

Let me give you a news, at this point , with a pre-made paddle , the difference in your experience level is exactly the same or even more than the difference of a semi-pro amateur ( 1800 USATT for reference ) with a top level pro.

Dude , seriously !! Get a good paddle , learn some table tennis, get some real life experience and then make these comments !! I seriously don't understand why you try to write thesis on table tennis without having any practical experience whatsoever !!

I understand your point, but you don't need to be able to perform something to understand the gist of it.

Shuki, have you seen what kind of balls Waldner could get back in his heyday?

He is also retired and has not been playing at the highest level for quite some time. Although I know we'd not want to believe that.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yeah, I don't have to have experience walking on the moon to pretend I know what I am talking about and act like an expert on the subject.

Oh, and by the way, when you are race car driving, and you are hugging one of those curves at 196 mph, the way you keep the inside track on those turns is you bear down and you spin the wheel fast. Its easy. I've made those turns a million times.

 

[Shuki]

I understand your point, but you don't need to be able to perform something to understand the gist of it.

Shuki, have you seen what kind of balls Waldner could get back in his heyday?

He is also retired and has not been playing at the highest level for quite some time. Although I know we'd not want to believe that.

Yes I have, my coach showed me videos of his footwork and explained why not to try and emulate anything he does.

 

[ttmonster]

... and on top of it , he does not understand that with his smart and seemingly correct explanations he is confusing the hell out of people who are trying to read the threads to learn about what is the actual correct technique.

I know NextLevel has mentioned these millions of times , but I don't know why the message does not get through to him.

And , to take his logic further , if the footwork and swing can be assumed to be a single motion, then table tennis which is supposedly a combination of chess and boxing can be learnt if you can teach a boxer chess and he can think of both the things simultaneously !! I seriously don't get how much insecurity causes some smart people to act as like a smart ass all the time !!

Dude we get it that you are intelligent , but at this point you don't have any clue on what is going on in table tennis !

Yeah, I don't have to have experience walking on the moon to pretend I know what I am talking about and act like an expert on the subject.

Oh, and by the way, when you are race car driving, and you are hugging one of those curves at 196 mph, the way you keep the inside track on those turns is you bear down and you spin the wheel fast. Its easy. I've made those turns a million times.

 

[Archosaurus]

Monster, I've ordered myself a good setup a few days ago. So I will come back soon with more relevant experience.

I've also never said I'm intelligent. I make far too many mistakes and don't deal with them well enough to be intelligent. It's not about that.

Maybe I will come back and completely contradict myself years later when I have more relevant knowledge. Most likely.

@Shuki

I'm interested in what your coach said. There's Waldner's touch and gamesense, of course, but there's more to it, I bet.

 

[Shuki]

1.Monster, I've ordered myself a good setup a few days ago. So I will come back soon with more relevant experience.


@Shuki

I'm interested in what your coach said. There's Waldner's touch and gamesense, of course, but there's more to it, I bet.

A good setup will not give you more relevant experience.

Complicated to try and explain without visuals, but I would best describe it as him usually taking one step, doing a relaxed stroke, stepping back, taking one step doing a stroke, stepping back, taking one step, doing a stroke. not really using both feet and body transfer as much with his feet. Hard to explain well.

 

[Archosaurus]

I'd need really good players to challenge me and a good coach to get really relevant experience, but I'd have to disagree that good equipment won't change the dynamics of the game enough to warrant my experience being more relevant.

Waldner used both his feet just as well as other top athletes of his time. I don't see anything relaxed or half assed about his strokes. He is just mostly in position, and he doesn't need to make such big adjustments.

You're probably not gonna read the ball and pace of the game as well as Waldner to know exactly where to stand, and you probably don't have a good enough touch to be able to move other top athletes around the table at will. So unless you can do that, of course you shouldn't try to copy his movement, because you're probably going to need more.

Waldner's basic style, though, isn't that different. He has good basics and he's not just taking single steps everywhere lazily.

Although if you mean that he tends to move one leg first, then the other especially when going back, then yeah, you should probably not do that if you can use both. You could be caught off guard doing that, but I believe his style also has some benefits that he used.

 

[NextLevel]

I understand your point, but you don't need to be able to perform something to understand the gist of it.

This is what people who ruin the world with the lack of experience often say. It's probably the reason why you study philosophy and not something serious like engineering or science or business.

 

[NextLevel]

For people who don't know, here was archo's first post on ooakforum, after watching my strokes and reading my attempt to coach someone to improve his forehand. As ttmonster is pointing out, some of this is clearly insecurity as he feels confident enough to speak about things he has never really experienced.

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=27741&start=30#p309951

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Hello and sorry for the somewhat necro from mid last year, I just think I should add this in case the OP is still watching.
Some background first:

I am not a coach, professional player or even notable amateur. I am just very interested in table tennis mechanics and I can practice what I preach. So feel free to shoot me down because x coach said so, but do remember that there's many ways to skin a cat. The concepts discussed here are fairly "advanced" to most players in the west, but they are fundamentals IMO. It's not anything magical, and you can learn it too.

I play "Chinese style" with European rubber on both sides, focusing on third ball attack and performing long strokes from close, mid and long range, and performing shorter, more bent elbow strokes from just right at the table or when caught with a fast ball to my elbow. This is for forehand only.


Tip number 1: Make sure your drive is good.

The drive is the foundation of the modern loop, and it is the basis for the body mechanics in the loop. Truly under-appreciated.

While there is nothing wrong with learning the slow, high arc, spinny loops described here, in fact you must learn and perfect those, it is inherently not a very quality shot. Practiced and drilled players have no problems killing every shot like that unless it's a counterloop rally where they're performed due to the inherent safety of them, while trying to gain a better foothold for a better stroke.

The slow, spinny loop is essentially suicide if you throw one out when you could be performing the modern loopdrive. (Unless, you're playing a lower player and they struggle with topspin. Go ahead and throw very spinny loops at them and watch them make unforced errors.)

Now, we've all heard about the loopdrive. What it essentially is, is a very dynamic and powerful loop, with a swing geometry closer to a drive than a loop. You sacrifice just a little consistency and spin for far better speed, placement and accuracy while not actually giving up too much spin. It should have a very visible arc compared to a drive of somewhat comparable pace but much less so than a loop of a comparable pace.

Many players, myself included, prefer to brush the ball than to drive the ball when looping. That is also what is taught in the west and what is considered correct. I would have to disagree.

The reason why most players' natural swing is a straight line, where you essentially chop into the ball upwards and your blade angle is close to or exact to your swing angle, is because it's easy and safe. You also do not have to involve the forearm when doing this, you can just pivot upwards from the elbow and you will produce a consistent shot of acceptable quality quite comfortably.

What you want to be doing is a swing geometry that starts more vertical and levels out more horizontal by the end of it. The best way to do this is to drive with the elbow starting close to the side of the body and finishing far and high from the body, with the blade angle closed, and your swing geometry more "closed" than your blade angle. You're hitting more than you're brushing along the side of the ball, while still producing considerable topspin due to the blade angle and the lifting motion.

The stroke mechanics when driving forwards is actually quite similar to traditional tennis. The forearm "lags" behind and on contact the elbow snaps violently across the body, to the left of your head, perhaps even nearly behind your head when looping very heavy backspin. Your arm will be quite extended just before contact and "loading up" for the snap. Of course, you will be relaxed when doing this.
Recovery is elliptical.


The main point is to drive with the elbow and control the placement with the elbow, and not to brush in a straight line across the ball. The reason you want to drive INTO the ball, while also performing the brushing motion upwards is because modern rubber responds better to sinking the ball into the sponge than skimming it across the topsheet. This is especially true for Chinese rubbers.

The stroke can be performed with European, Japanese, Chinese, whatever rubber. Chinese rubber just benefits a lot due to the technology. I play with non-top end European rubber, and the stroke has worked even with absolutely rubbish bats.

Take a look at Ma Long for the perfect example of straight arm looping with this technique, and also compare your drive motion to his drive motion, especially what your body is doing during the movement. most examples I have seen posted here have "worse" body mechanics for this stroke. I call it "lazy posture". Too straight knees, not enough leaning the torso over to shift weight, not enough driving with the hips. Lazy. (Take into account your physical state, of course. Young players can do this better and you might have to adapt your style. This is from the perspective of a young adult.)

When performing Ma Long's drive motion, you will most likely hit every ball into the net at first, unless you're using a very fast bat. In that case, get a slow wooden beginner's bat.

Once you begin to understand the timing for the hip and shoulder drive and the relation between body and arm mechanics, your regular drives will carry outstanding pace and quality, and you will probably outdo your current loop in everything expect pure topspin. Then once you're certain that your drive is good and you're not just "winging it" in terms of what feels right, you can start to incorporate it into your looping.


Of course, don't blindly copy x player's strokes, especially if their serves and equipment largely differ from yours. Do compare the mechanics between their stroke and your stroke. Even in the CNT there's a dozen ways to skin a cat. They all share the same fundamental aspects, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsg4M6fOObI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-b-n4dHT5U

Some tips for the end:

Place weight on your soles and lift your heels slightly.
Squat lower than you normally do. Far lower.
Learn further than you normally do. Not too much.
Have a wider stance than you normally do.
Have your rear leg further behind than you normally do. If out of position, prefer to push front leg than to pull rear leg. More balanced, less load transfer.
Strike the ball far more to the side, with your body at a 45 degree angle to the playing direction.
Lean forward through the entirety of the stroke.
Tense your core slightly, then fully tense it on impact and release.

You know you're doing it right when it feels like you're doing a crunch and squat at the same time.

Hope it helps and doesn't start a convex vs concave loop discussion.

I'd love to give more tips on looping, but the body mechanics are essentially the same for driving and can be learned from observing pro players with great mechanics, and using your head. I also do not have any credibility, so yeah.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

"I'd love to give more tips on looping, but the body mechanics are essentially the same for driving and can be learned from observing pro players with great mechanics, and using your head. I also do not have any credibility, so yeah."

Totally priceless. The fool who thinks he knows from watching even though he can't even loop. Ah, thanks NextLevel. This gave me an extra good laugh.

Lord help anyone who is fool enough to listen to that retardation that is trying to be passed off as advice. And the idea of Archi still trying to explain footwork and how "well" he moved to the short forehand, hahaha, well, anyone who does know how to do that stuff should know he is a fool who likes to hear his own voice. But....when you pretend you can do something you can't, someone who can do it will be able to tell when you are full of schizzle.

At least back then he got the credibility issue on target. But it is entertaining how off he is on how to perform technique.

I would love to hear him and PNut going back and forth. That would be as funny as you could possibly get.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[thekleifheit13]

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

@theknife: you lift weights, right? You do it for real, right? You at least kind of know what your doing, right?

Imagine if someone who had never lifted was going around and explaining techniques and continually referencing the best lifters in the world as his source, yet he completely was off base on everything. And if you actually knew the subject you could tell he was a total weirdo who was off base on things and if people tried to do what he was saying, it would make them worse, not better, what would you think about it?

I am cool with the idea that Archi loves Betty and Veronica; heck, I'm cool with the idea that Archi loves Table Tennis too. But he continually talks about stuff he's never done as though he knows how to do it and as though he's an authority on the subject. And if someone who is at the same level as Archi read that foolishness, and didn't know it was completely incorrect they could end up with some bad habits, some bad techniques and a knee, lower back or shoulder injury added into the mix.

I mean, completely not understanding Ma Long's forehand technique, he is advising players to swing from their shoulder without their forearm. Yet if you go frame by frame on a Ma Long FH you can see that his elbow flexes and he adds what in TT is called the forearm snap and wrist whip, to add acceleration and take pressure off his shoulder, and he does this exquisitely timed to his contact.

It is not something a low level player could see or copy. And Archi's directions will likely cause a shoulder injury.

If you read his footwork explanation of the stroke and moving your feet at the same time, that is an emergency measure that you may sometimes employ, but it is definitely not the technique you want to train for most situations and if you are using this kind of technique too much of the time, that means you are continually out of position and could cause knee and back damage.

So, the advice of someone who doesn't know how to do something and doesn't know he doesn't know how to do it, well, at best it will mess up the technique of someone who doesn't know better and takes the information seriously. But it could actually cause worse problems then damaging someone's technique.

So, I am okay with the fact that Archi is enthusiastic about Table Tennis. That is a good thing. But him trying to pretend he knows stuff he doesn't, well, in other fields people like that are capable of being even more dangerous.

 

[Archosaurus]

This is what people who ruin the world with the lack of experience often say. It's probably the reason why you study philosophy and not something serious like engineering or science or business.

How do you know that I don't study engineering, science and business?


For the rest of the thread, all I can say is, you're right. I don't think I have a reason to try to deny it. If you get a laugh out of it, then all the better, at least someone's having a good time.

Although I should really apologize to any people who read some of my posts who don't actually know what's right: it's my method of getting the truth out of people, but I am definitely not right. Don't listen to me, most of the time.

Now, I look like an absolute fool and no one likes me here, but I sure as hell have got reliable information that is the result of many years of people's hard work: and for free too! You guys really do put things how they are when someone is saying nonsense, you know.