Shuki Development and Questions

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Thanks for the overload of homework on Memorial day weekend NextLevel :) ... seriously great posts , will go through each in detail and ask questions if I have any ...

Yep. I agree with that. :) There is a reason the goon squad can't catch up to this guy. And NextLevel doesn't need Der_Echte's help to evade them. He just takes them on head on. :)
 
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After carefully evaluating Next Level's TT Encyclopedia length MANIFESTO on aggressive players...

I HEREBY CONCLUDE the Der_Echte is an aggressive player.

Please confirm NL :D

Do I really need to confirm the first and only Rambo Looper is an aggressive player?
 
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Yep. I agree with that. :) There is a reason the goon squad can't catch up to this guy. And NextLevel doesn't need Der_Echte's help to evade them. He just takes them on head on. :)

Next Level's secret is to lure them into the COLD of Philly streets and let them freeze, makes it easier to shatter them upon impact.
 
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Do I really need to confirm the first and only Rambo Looper is an aggressive player?

Alright, guys, to know exactly how accurate and funny this is, you may need to see Der play. But you still should be hitting the like button on this post because its up there in the top ten of the millennium.
 
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Article 1 - the short summary:

So, to cut a long story short, always be aggressive against the passive and easy ball. Your ability to make more and more returns from your opponent attackable is what determines your level as an attacker. It takes practice but if you train that way and don't play that way, especially on serve, return and third ball, you are wasting your time.

Aggressive TT Strategy – Earlier Shots Matter More

Since the style I play is controlled offensive with some blocking/counterhitting on defense, most of this post will discuss the game strategy of an offensive player. Some of the points will apply to other styles, some will not.
No matter what your style is, ball control and shot quality come into play. The reason why we train in TT is primarily to become better and better at making quality shots on balls that we find difficult to make quality shots against. Shot quality can be measured by spin, speed, their combination (power), placement and over many points, consistency.
You win a point when your opponent fails to make a return either because he missed your shot completely or he returned your shot long or into the net. As a player gets better, most of his important shots are a result of being posed a tricky question by the opponent’s shots and not just a careless error. Since opponents will not often want to give us easy opportunities to win points, we need plays/patterns in our arsenal to make them give us what we want.
The most important principle of offensive play is to introduce your weapons early in the point in the hope of getting the advantage early. An advantage is generally the ability to play a first good topspin attack or to play a point winning stroke. The reason we try to do this is that we assume that our opponent is also an attacker and if we do not introduce our weapons, he will. However, since we don’t always control the point from the outset (we do not serve first), we need some weapons to prevent our opponent from attacking first. Finally we need some defensive/counterattacking weapons so that our opponent will not win easily with (soft) attacks
Recently, I have coached matches and noticed that some things that I assumed were general knowledge were not. I would watch a player loop the ball and get a blocked return that sat up in the middle of the table. The player would then reloop that ball and get another block return. And eventually the player would loop a ball long. Even worse, a player would serve, get a long push to his forehand, and then push the ball back because of a fear of missing the loop vs. backspin. This would happen on many points. While this general approach might work against players who are not aggressive or players who struggle with consistent play, this approach usually guarantees that a player will remain at the 1600-1800 levels for a very long time especially if they learned to play seriously as an adult. The reason why these players play that way is that consistency tends to win at the U1500 levels. That said, the U1500 level players who transition best into higher level play are the aggressive attackers (usually coached juniors) who play the proper way but improve their shot quality.

An aggressive player needs to be looking for opportunities to play aggressive shots. When a block comes, an aggressive player is trying to either end the point or play a shot that the opponent will struggle even more to return. An aggressive player is not playing for a rally – he is playing shots to pose problems to his opponents in a variety of ways. He is playing loop drives or smashes on predictable balls. He is looping for the corners and not the center of the table. He pushes short or pushes wide in order to make his opponents struggle to attack him.
An aggressive power player who attacks almost every ball will often have a few misses when playing players of his level. But such a player will accept that as being part of his game style.
He accepts the misses as part of being the proper way of playing. Do note that he is usually missing because his opponents are generating balls that pose him problems. When playing opponents below his level, the shots are less problematic so his accuracy rate goes up. Moreover, if the aggressive player has played this way for a while, he actually had to practice against those lower level shots to get to his current level and therefore developed weapons for attacking them.

Moreover, an aggressive player may be missing as he figures out what the quality of his opponent’s ball is – once he gets tuned to the ball quality and reads the opponent better, or finds ways to adjust those opportunities to his strike zone, those misses become makes if the opponent continues to present the attacker with the same opportunities.
Since the earlier a stroke is, the more important the stroke is for your TT success, let’s look at some of the goals that an aggressive player should have when playing his first 5 TT strokes in a point. The most important thing to note here is that these are mostly INSTINCTS, not strokes. If you lack the strokes to implement this, you should still be implementing a form of these instincts and be developing your strokes to support them. If you develop the right instincts, a coach only has to fix your strokes. If you develop the wrong instincts, then you have to fix your instincts and your strokes. To be fair, instincts and strokes are not completely independent – it is clear that people take weaker shots to keep the ball on the table rather than good shots and risk missing. However, this is the easiest way to keep your level low if you are seriously improving your shots in practice, as the weaker strokes will stay in your game even if you have developed good offensive strokes. If you are missing a shot that your instincts tell you that you should be making, speak to your coach or look at the footwork and stroke and the sequence of shots that leads up to it and see what is missing. Then rebuild the shot so that it works in matches. Not taking the right shot will only make your weaker stroke better and keep you from playing table tennis at a higher level. In general, playing a lesser or more controlled version of the right stroke is better than playing a consistent version of the wrong stroke as the former is easier to build upon than the latter.

Serve

An aggressive player is looking to get a weak return to attack or a predictable ball to use to set up his point. An aggressive looper will usually serve variations of short backspin and short no spin in other to get relatively slow returns that he can attack or get his opponent to push into the net. He may disguise the backspin with a little sidespin. He serves short because a long serves gives the opponent the opportunity to attack with a full stroke. Therefore, serving long is mostly a surprise and should be deep and fast to prevent the opponent from attacking aggressively.
He will serve topspins as a variation in order to keep opponents honest, to restrict the options of good pushers and to get easy pop-ups when he can as it is easier to powerfully attack high weak balls than low weak balls. While it might seem like he is trying to win points on his serve, his main priority is that his serve does not get attacked – he is okay with a passive return from his opponent or a predictable return. What he truly dislikes is an aggressive return that leaves him unable to attack or continue the rally with a stroke in his play book.

Return

The aggressive player is looking to return the ball in a way that is either an attack or a control stroke that prevents the opponent from attacking. Therefore, short serves are returned with well placed deep pushes, well placed flicks or short pushes. Long serves are always looped. An aggressive player will avoid playing shots that facilitate his opponent’s attacks unless he believes that the attacks are not strong enough to get through him and that he can counterattack them confidently. An aggressive opponent will continue to look for the locations on the table relative to his opponent’s current position where he can cause trouble for his opponent by putting the ball there. An aggressive player will note what kinds of returns are causing the opponent problems and what kinds are not.
Aggressive returning puts pressure on your opponent’s serve game, so it is valuable to be able to attack serves offensively if they drift long or are not disguised enough to slow you down. Causing an opponent to think consciously about the quality of his serves will make him miss more of them as most people serve unconsciously and make mistakes when forced to make conscious changes.

Third ball

Third ball attacks are the hall mark of a true offensive player. An offensive player’s energy levels are at the highest immediately after the serve and in anticipation of the third ball. This is the first and earliest chance to end the point if the opponent makes a passive or weak return, and the probabilities the opponent will do this off a decent serve he is unfamiliar with are fairly high. Moreover, an opponent might play a good return but this return might still be controllable given the right level of alertness so the third ball attacker realizes this this is the stroke that may make or break his serve. Finally, if the opponent plays an extremely poor but tricky receive, the attacker must position himself to handle it. This is one of the common mistakes made by lower level attackers – they often assume the weakness of the return relieves them of the responsibility to approach it properly with good movement. The other common mistake here is to not begin moving the instant the ball begins to pop off the opponent’s racket – allowing the ball to bounce on your side before moving loses time and makes handling the ball harder.
Many third ball attackers get free points off their serves not because of the serve itself, but because of what the attacker does to passive returns. A barrage of aggressive third ball attacks forces the receiver to improve the quality of his return or lose the point.
For most third ball attackers, the most important strokes are the loop drive and the slow-controlled loop. These are utilized when the opponent can’t return the ball short or with sufficient aggression to restrain the attack. Most third ball attackers will loop drive their easy or practiced opportunities and will slow loop trickier balls, the slow loops having more spin and margin in order to remain consistent. Some will loop with sidespin to drive their opponent wide to either the forehand or the backhand to make the return weaker and set up an easy next shot. The slow topspin on third ball followed by a strong 5th ball shot vs a block or passive return is sometimes called the 5th ball strategy.
What if the receiver plays the ball short? Then the stroke is usually a flick, a short push, or a long push to either the wide forehand or wide backhand or fast to the elbow. Of course, other than the long push, such options are usually the hallmark of an advanced player. But the point of this article is to say what the instincts a player should be building are if they want to play the offensive style.
What a player should not be doing is simply pushing back slow long receives to the middle of the table or floating the ball across the net. While this may work against a player who cannot attack such balls, it can be habit forming and instinct ruining.

Third ball attackers have many shot options because any offensive shot has many placement opportunities.
A final and often underestimated aspect of third ball is that it is often directly linked to the serve even beyond such obvious statements as serve backspin to get a backspin return and then loop it. Serves may also be used to get returns to where you like them, or to move the opponent or challenge his footwork. Serving to the forehand will usually produce returns back to the fore forehand and serving to the backhand will usually produce returns back to the backhand. If you draw an opponent over to the forehand side, he may be slow to recover to the backhand and vice versa. An attacker can even serve short to the forehand and push(!) wide to the backhand against many players with positive results.

Fourth Ball

Fourth ball play is another key to higher level table tennis. The importance of the third ball attack has made the ability to return the third ball a big aspect of table tennis. Let’s assume that the opponent has made a quality third ball topspin (loop or loop drive). Then the main options here for an attack are to block, punch-block/smash or countertopspin (defenders can chop here as well).
Against a slow third ball loop, the attack is actually waiting for a block so that he can attack an easier 5th ball. So against a slow loop, the usual options are to block low and short/wide if possible (very difficult vs. heavy topspin) or to punch block/countertopspin with authority. Some players block deep and step back to give themselves room to countertopspin/defend the next ball which may work depending on the quality of the 5th attack. The ideal instinct here is an aggressive countertopspin of some sort or a tricky block to slow the opponent down.
Against hard third ball topspins, the block is the usual weapon as it uses the pace of the opponent. Opponents with good anticipation and mobility may also step back and fish/lob early.

Fifth Ball

The fifth ball depends on the 3rd and 4th ball. The biggest mistake I see amongst players below 1800 I coach in matches is the inability to quickly anticipate and play a strong shot vs. slow or high 4th ball blocks on the 5th ball. Some of them do not do it because they want to remain consistent. The key way to think about this is to realize that people usually play better when you don’t put pressure on them and that your shots should always be trying to put pressure of some form on your opponent. Just as importantly for those with long term goals, the inability to think about positively posing problems on the 5th ball will cap your game. Remember, if the instinct is right, all that has to be fixed are the strokes and shot selection options.

Strong shots include well placed heavy slow topspins, loop drives, smashes or even sidespins to difficult places (wide or into the body, all depending on the context).

The Rally

Okay, so you and your opponent had defied the odds and gone beyond the first 5 shots of the point. You are now in the rally. The rally is the one place where you can decide to win with consistency or with superior shot making (usually a combination of both). Given the way TT works, it is important to have good rally skills, but it is far more important to realize and focus on the shots that come before this as the earlier will usually define the match. Most rallies begin with a player having the advantage coming out of the first 5 shots, though that advantage may shift depending on who the better rally player is. You could argue that a defensive player is really a player who plays for the rally so he can win with consistency, though that is not the common definition. To summarize,
an offensive player needs rallying skills, but those skills should not be treated as replacements for trying to get an advantage in the first 5 shots of the point if the player wants to get better.

Conclusion

This is a high level view of what kind of shot selection an aggressive player should be doing. The reason modern offensive players loop is that it the loop/topspin is the most controllable and versatile shot in the playbook. Most/all of your returns of long shots should be topspins.
Each player is unique and some players may have special shots or plays that they can use. Do remember that to continue to get better, these special shots or plays must be able to put pressure on better players. As long as your instincts are correct, continue to work on your plays and strokes. As those get better, your level will rise automatically. If your primary concern is putting the ball on the table, even if you can run down and block/retrieve every ball, your progress will be limited by the difficulty of playing that way - it is always easier to win by doing things that create problems for the opponent,

whoa! who is this aggressive player that you speak of? :) might it be me?
I agree with your points by the way. something like this is rare. well done. you have turned a lot of attacker thoughts into words.

i realize that attackers have a similar mindset and have similar thoughts. (i thought you were reading my mind or something)

*************************************************

in all seriousness, ive only read the first and last two pages of this thread, so please forgive me if i repeat something.

@Shuki
In response to data collecting the first game, you should do it in a way that is safe and fits in your playstyle. i do all sorts of experiments on my opponent to collect data, but i make sure i win those points.
short, long, backhand, forehand, spin, block, and attack. make sure you have a proper response that both is
1 planned ahead of time
2 a response that you are familiar with

try to kill 2 birds with one stone. get data and win.

there is no need to go out of your way to do experiments that you feel uncomfortable doing. a match is not the time for that. get used to doing the experiment when you train or practice.

as a high school student and a ping pong player, conduct your experiments safely and responsibly.

*********************************************

also, make sure you get useful information.
my opponents face gives a lot about how annoying they think my serve is.
:)
the service return tells my how i can do my third ball attack.


for me, attacking the opponent gets me the most useful information, because players dont think when a ball comes at them fast. they only react with pure instinct. there usually isnt much thought, only an automatic defense mechanism.
this gut reaction usually comes out during a strong attack, like a good third ball attack. after that, the opponent starts thinking again.
however, if the player continues to use this instinctual reaction over and over, they will usually react the same or similar ways when they get attacked.


because i attack so much, this gives me very valuable information. knowing how my opponent will react will be very useful to me, especially because i will be using this data over and over again.
my third ball attacks almost always get me the same return, unless the opponent was experimenting on me. if my opponent won that point, they would say, "it was all part of my evil plan, muah hahahahaha!" or, "youve activated my trap card, muah hahahahaha!" or just look really smug.

coversely, there is no need to collect data that you wont use. after all, we dont lob our opponent's serve just to see what happens,
unless your name is Adam Bobrow.
sorry adam, i know youre a comedian.

back to the topic, get information you can use, ideally information you can use to win points over and over again.

i apologize for bad typing, im on mobile. plus its two AM in the morning.

tldr;
when you collect data on your opponent, do so safely and comfortably.
make sure you collect data that will be useful to you.
 
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David,

You were trained in a proper TT environment. When I wrote that, I was trying to explain to people who were not how they were supposed to play. People like you and DerEchte understand it and know when you deviate, but some of this stuff is totally abstract to many adult amateurs.
 
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David,

You were trained in a proper TT environment. When I wrote that, I was trying to explain to people who were not how they were supposed to play. People like you and DerEchte understand it and know when you deviate, but some of this stuff is totally abstract to many adult amateurs.

NextLevel: I think there may be a table tennis handbook somewhere inside you. Those were really awesome quotes. I was waiting for you to tell us what text book has that kind of information on table tennis tactics in it. And it doesn't matter to me if you say you got this information originally from Brett or another coach. Its clearly yours now because you know it first hand and well enough to write in that kind of detail. Complete, concise and to the point. Add that to inventing the name of a whole style of play--Rambo Looping--played only by our goon squad evading, retired military power house, I don't know, its inspiring stuff. Keep it coming.
 
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David,

You were trained in a proper TT environment. When I wrote that, I was trying to explain to people who were not how they were supposed to play. People like you and DerEchte understand it and know when you deviate, but some of this stuff is totally abstract to many adult amateurs.


Did I say something wrong? If I did, tell me.

I agree that most people don't understand the mindset of an aggressive player. People always wonder why I play the way I play, they wonder how I'm okay with missing so many shots, they wonder why I attack every chance I get. I might be an extreme example though.
However, when I explain why to people, they don't think too much of it, and they dismiss these ideas, probably thinking they've played ping pong before I was born, even though I've probably put way more hours into the game.

But I see that the reaction to your post here is different. I'm glad that people are seeing this.
 
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I don't think you said anything wrong, did NL say something to that end , I did not catch it.

I think he was trying to make the point that the attack first method comes organically to some because they are told so at the start of their playing career than some others who have to figure it out themselves.

I ,for one . know, even though I started out as adult , people told me to attack anything that is long / high and never chicken out, it has meant the world of difference to how I developed as a player. Of course I am guilty as charged as being over aggressive and not playing an easier game against people who don't attack that much, but nonetheless I believe the quality of my shots have become much better because of this thought process. The only problem that I struggle with now is the be calm and play more defensive when somebody starts attacking my weak areas, I end up reacting and trying to attack back even though I am not good enough against those balls to attack with quality and consistency, but then again its partly psychological and partly technical and I will keep working on it ... the only problem with this approach is that you have hit a lot of balls to become consistent enough , but following right path is better than other choices anyways ...
Did I say something wrong? If I did, tell me.

I agree that most people don't understand the mindset of an aggressive player. People always wonder why I play the way I play, they wonder how I'm okay with missing so many shots, they wonder why I attack every chance I get. I might be an extreme example though.
However, when I explain why to people, they don't think too much of it, and they dismiss these ideas, probably thinking they've played ping pong before I was born, even though I've probably put way more hours into the game.

But I see that the reaction to your post here is different. I'm glad that people are seeing this.
 
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Did I say something wrong? If I did, tell me.

I agree that most people don't understand the mindset of an aggressive player. People always wonder why I play the way I play, they wonder how I'm okay with missing so many shots, they wonder why I attack every chance I get. I might be an extreme example though.
However, when I explain why to people, they don't think too much of it, and they dismiss these ideas, probably thinking they've played ping pong before I was born, even though I've probably put way more hours into the game.

But I see that the reaction to your post here is different. I'm glad that people are seeing this.
I just played in my first tournament in a long time (1982) and the major reason I didn't do well was that I did not play aggressively enough ( according to my opponents) so this thread is something I wish I had read BEFORE the tournament...
 
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Did I say something wrong? If I did, tell me.

I don't think you said anything wrong. I don't think NL implied you said anything wrong. How I read what NL wrote, he is simply explaining to you are able to go all in on your strategy and why so many adult learners are willing to take weaker shots that land on the table, and why they are willing to not play their strengths and/or hope to capitalize on an opponent's weaknesses.

To step up to the Next Level and continue to improve you have to be willing to take some risks and miss some shots to do the right thing and take control of the point ASAP.

In a sense it is a difference between wanting to win points by your good play vs hoping your opponent will lose points by messing up while using inferior technique and playing it safe.

Here is a story. This guy I know, he's about my age. He was a tennis player. And when I have seen him use a recreational racket like one of those Halex things, his strokes are still tennis strokes, but they are good strokes. He could learn to play offensively very easily and it wouldn't take too long. But he doesn't read spin too well and he hates losing more than pretty much anyone I've seen. He plays with LP on both sides. Most of what he does is dink the ball back, sometimes good placement and awkward angles but they are dinks, and he hopes the person he is playing will mess up. He is good enough at it that he is about 1700-1800. But he will not go much higher without his fear of messing up and without letting go of that hope that his opponent will mess up rather than wanting to win the points. One time he tried medium pips for FH. He abandoned it within a week because he hated that you could give him high angled serves and either he had to leave his BH open to receive BH on his FH side or he had to leave his FH open and stand more IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TABLE. You see the problem was, if he tried to receive a serve that had decent spin with the medium pips, they actually had enough more grip than the LP that he couldn't get the serves on the table.

So after seeing how bad he was, even with medium pips which are not that far from LP, he couldn't deal with serves and he didn't want to break down and lose for a while to learn to read spin.

There were a bunch of times I talked to him about how he would probably be really good if he learned to how to play with smooth on both sides, got decent and then switched to LP on one side, smooth on the other and twiddled. But he couldn't deal with the idea of losing.

So, David, you have the right attitude and would rather do the right shot even if you miss for a while till you get it. But, most people don't. I think that is the main thing NextLevel was saying.
 
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Coincidentally I just saw this same guy asking a coach about making him a smooth/LP racket because, in the U1700 at a tournament yesterday he got crushed by someone lower level than him who had no trouble with his pips. Interestingly, he was more concerned with the fact that the guy he lost to had a lower rating than him than anything else.

My guess is that he won't stay with a combo racket because it will take a lot of work before he can deal with both sides and transition well between them.

I will keep my eye on that.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
 
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Did I say something wrong? If I did, tell me.

I agree that most people don't understand the mindset of an aggressive player. People always wonder why I play the way I play, they wonder how I'm okay with missing so many shots, they wonder why I attack every chance I get. I might be an extreme example though.
However, when I explain why to people, they don't think too much of it, and they dismiss these ideas, probably thinking they've played ping pong before I was born, even though I've probably put way more hours into the game.

But I see that the reaction to your post here is different. I'm glad that people are seeing this.

No, you didn't say anything wrong. I was complimenting you. I think any disagreement you get from a player over 2000 USATT around you would be relative and not absolute - I would go as low as 1800 and I am pretty surprised that anyone around you would disagree - they may not be as aggressive on serve return as you are, but I suspect other things would be pretty similar. Some people may not have the shot quality to play this way consistently (I lack the mobility for example) but it is pretty hard to watch a match between two 2000+ loopers and not see elements of what I described. Some people have the shot quality but lack the instincts and vice versa. Younger players who grew up in high level TT environments tend to be lucky as they are not exposed to bad play as much as amateur adults are.
 
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Coincidentally I just saw this same guy asking a coach about making him a smooth/LP racket because, in the U1700 at a tournament yesterday he got crushed by someone lower level than him who had no trouble with his pips. Interestingly, he was more concerned with the fact that the guy he lost to had a lower rating than him than anything else.

My guess is that he won't stay with a combo racket because it will take a lot of work before he can deal with both sides and transition well between them.

I will keep my eye on that.

Entertaining follow-up. The coach put together a smooth/LP combination racket for this guy after I heard him talking about this. He played with 1, yes, count it, ONE player who he NEVER loses to with his LP both sides racket. He played her with the new combination racket and got his clock cleaned.

After losing repeatedly for 1, count it, ONE hour, he went back to his locker mumbling to himself about how he can't play with that racket and how this person could never beat him with his normal racket. He brought out his normal racket. Proceeded to win.

My money says he will never pick up the combo racket again because he would have to learn to play with smooth rubber and read spin. And he is more concerned with winning against low level players than he is about actually learning something and improving.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
 
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