Dwell time

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Explain.

I know that when you ask for more output from your hearing or your vision for example, you can train your brain to produce a more accurate, or should I say more desirable output. If you restrict the sense, you can train your brain to produce good output with less input.

People's vision, hearing and feeling does not always produce accurate results. They can be trained. Worse players or worse drivers very much so don't see, hear and feel the same things as better players or drivers.

What part of this is idiotic?

Sorry man. I think you've outdone yourself. I see no need to comment.

But I've changed my mind about the blindfolds: Not blindfolded. Instead, dark sunglasses. I say you play with dark sunglasses, earplugs and gloves while using a TB T5000 with grip tape on the handle. Then you will see, hear and feel everything better.


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Carl, I can't comprehend what I'm reading right now.

Do you believe that surgeons used to working for years with thick gloves and obstructive glasses on, with poor feel and vision, don't become much more adept at doing jobs with poor feeling and vision?

Do you believe that blind people don't develop much better hearing and feel to replace their lost sense?

Is it completely absurd to you that sensory deprivation or complete loss of a sense can lead to more efficient usage of input to that sense, or other senses depending on the case?

I'm not going to try to argue you: you clearly think I'm crazy. There's no convincing you of anything. I just can't believe what you're writing.
 
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Arch, you need to make use of everything you can. I would not suggest that wearing gloves will speed your development.

On to something else. That feeling Carl talks about of extending the dwell, and the argument for slower blades?

My take on that is that I sometimes discover I can improve a certain physical thing I am working on by mental tricks. I discover I can think about one thing, something else happens subconsciously as a result. A lot of good coaches have a whole bunch of these kinds of things they can tell people to fix common problems. Short cuts. (One coach I know likes to say, "make yourself small" to help people who tend to fall backwards). I try to collect these things, sometimes forget to write them down.

I think that feeling of dwell may not be real -- certainly it is not clear that when you get this feeling that the dwell is actually increased at all. However, I think it is very possible that seeking it out has effects that technically improve your stroke in a variety of other ways.
 
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There's much more to the game than just feel, so you're probably right. I can imagine, with my unqualified knowledge, that depriving one sense regularly, in the long term, would be like removing one of your thumbs. Might help in the short term with increasing finger mobility, but in the end of the day you're missing a thumb.

Now I'm not sure what Carl is on about: maybe I have said something horribly incorrect and I have not yet realized how incorrect it is. Possibly. I have not received an explanation, only insults, so I will just assume that Carl is causing mass hysteria in my area. :rolleyes:


Anyway, something more productive:

About slower blades and dwell. Has there been any real experiments done to prove that slower blades have more dwell?

I mean, it makes sense in most regards. Don't get me wrong. However dwell and the feeling of dwell seems to be a result of many things. How can we be sure that slower blades don't just feel like they have more dwell?
 
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UpSideDownCarl with thr Friendly Neighborhood Kool Aid Man said:
Well, if that is what you are talking about then I say, go back to drinking that Kool-Aid.

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Carl was wanting to insert this vid SOOOOO Bad...

 
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I see where Archosaurus is coming from. Human do develop other senses when deprived of one.

But, will it be the case of a man developing stronger arm because of wheelchair or will it be a man with no singing ability because of hearing impairment?
My guess would be the latter as we are talking about developing the efficient mechanics by utilizing the proper feedback but the experiment might tell us otherwise.
 
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One personal observation about feeling. Sometimes when I try somebody else's racket or switch to another blade, the first "feeling" of the racket is so sharp. I feel how the ball strikes the rubber differently on different shots, I sense the slightest vibration. But once I played with it for a week or so, I feel nothing. Total numbness.
 
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I always insist on using grip tape for many positive reasons... and with good results, yet when I go to nyc and hit with sum of Carl's stuff, it is almost like I am invincible. Either that or nyc people are too kind to occasional tt interlopers.

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In the video I posted from Suga D, the stroke takes about a second, perhaps less. I would need to time the regular time stroke. And I am on a cell phone. During the stroke the racket moved approximately 2.5 feet from backswing to followthrough in that short time. On a flat hit, I'd venture a guess that the ball would be on the racket for about .5mm (1/2mm) of that stroke before it flew off.

With the pull ball, in that moment of suspended animation where the racket looks like it is going faster than the ball and then the ball seems to catapult off the racket, that looks like it lasts for about 2-4cm. Now looks can definitely be deceiving and it is darn hard to say what is really happening there. For that we would need a very high quality camera.

But it sure looks like the ball is in contact with rubber and carried by it for more than just impact and gone. And trying to get that feeling definitely helps you get more spin. Which is also why training with one of those wheel things for cultivating and improving your brush contact actually helps you improve your loop.

I was talking to Mark Croitoroo yesterday while we were training and he has one of those wheels. In Europe when he was training there before his shoulder injury, they made him use the wheel to help his spin contact. The guy was probably about 2400 at least when he had the shoulder injury and he said it was worth working with the wheel and that it helped his technique.

Even though it looks like the pull ball in Suga D's video is on the rubber for 2-4cm, let's say the pull ball is on the rubber for .5cm or 5mm. That is still a 1000% increase in distance traveled on the rubber compared to my guesstimate of .5mm from a flat hit. And if 5mm is all it was, it is a very small percentage of the distance the racket traveled. And it is while the racket is moving its fastest. And still a considerable amount.

If the racket moves a total of 30 inches (2.5 feet) during the stroke 30 inches = 762mm. If 762mm = 1 second, 5mm = 1/152.4 of 1 second. That is a pretty short amount of time. And still 1000% longer than a flat hit.

Is that what is going on? I don't know. I have to be honest, I don't even care if what we feel that feels like extra dwell time is or isn't. That feeling while you loop gets you so much more spin that even if it wasn't real, it is still worth trying to feel that. And it also feels really good to feel that you have grabbed and pulled the ball.

And you can say what you want. But in that video of the pull ball, something is going on that is hard to fathom. The idea that it happens in 1/152.4 of a second which is approximately 6 milliseconds, is pretty wild.

But to me, none of it matters. Because I have experienced the fact that when I contact the ball and I feel that grab and pull, Michael Landers will raise his eyebrows and say, "wow, good spin!" The way Mark Croitoroo let's me know that same basic information is that he says this: "woweeweewah!" Because of that, I'm okay with not knowing, with fairly inaccurate math and HEAVY topspin. [emoji2]

Did someone say: "I like to put heavy topspin on the ball!" Hahaha.

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In the video I posted from Suga D, the stroke takes about a second, perhaps less. I would need to time the regular time stroke. And I am on a cell phone. During the stroke the racket moved approximately 2.5 feet from backswing to followthrough in that short time. On a flat hit, I'd venture a guess that the ball would be on the racket for about .5mm (1/2mm) of that stroke before it flew off.

With the pull ball, in that moment of suspended animation where the racket looks like it is going faster than the ball and then the ball seems to catapult off the racket, that looks like it lasts for about 2-4cm. Now looks can definitely be deceiving and it is darn hard to say what is really happening there. For that we would need a very high quality camera.

But it sure looks like the ball is in contact with rubber and carried by it for more than just impact and gone. And trying to get that feeling definitely helps you get more spin. Which is also why training with one of those wheel things for cultivating and improving your brush contact actually helps you improve your loop.

I was talking to Mark Croitoroo yesterday while we were training and he has one of those wheels. In Europe when he was training there before his shoulder injury, they made him use the wheel to help his spin contact. The guy was probably about 2400 at least when he had the shoulder injury and he said it was worth working with the wheel and that it helped his technique.

Even though it looks like the pull ball in Suga D's video is on the rubber for 2-4cm, let's say the pull ball is on the rubber for .5cm or 5mm. That is still a 1000% increase in distance traveled on the rubber compared to my guesstimate of .5mm from a flat hit. And if 5mm is all it was, it is a very small percentage of the distance the racket traveled. And it is while the racket is moving its fastest. And still a considerable amount.

If the racket moves a total of 30 inches (2.5 feet) during the stroke 30 inches = 762mm. If 762mm = 1 second, 5mm = 1/152.4 of 1 second. That is a pretty short amount of time. And still 1000% longer than a flat hit.

Is that what is going on? I don't know. I have to be honest, I don't even care if what we feel that feels like extra dwell time is or isn't. That feeling while you loop gets you so much more spin that even if it wasn't real, it is still worth trying to feel that. And it also feels really good to feel that you have grabbed and pulled the ball.

And you can say what you want. But in that video of the pull ball, something is going on that is hard to fathom. The idea that it happens in 1/152.4 of a second which is approximately 6 milliseconds, is pretty wild.

But to me, none of it matters. Because I have experienced the fact that when I contact the ball and I feel that grab and pull, Michael Landers will raise his eyebrows and say, "wow, good spin!" The way Mark Croitoroo let's me know that same basic information is that he says this: "woweeweewah!" Because of that, I'm okay with not knowing, with fairly inaccurate math and HEAVY topspin. [emoji2]

Did someone say: "I like to put heavy topspin on the ball!" Hahaha.

Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

While I think the camera used for the movie is not good enough to calculte the actual dwell time, I strongly agree that the players and coaches should aim to loop as though the ball stays on the racket as long as possible. Because, whatever the cause, the amount of topspin and the supposed sensation(whether false or not) seems to have a positive correlation.
 
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But human's reaction time is 10 millisecond so we can't sense 1 millisecond of dwell time right?

I agree that softer rubber feels like it has more dwell. On the other hand, hard chinese rubber feels like it has more dwell too.
Fast and not so soft Tenergy(or MX-P) feels like it has exceptional dwell.
Hard and slow rubber such as OX has good control but feels like it has less dwell.

All of them has physical dwell time of 1 milisecond so is it the coefficient of restitution that causes the false sense of longer dwell? Or is it the stickiness of the rubber? Or it there some other facter involved?
it is reaction time and not the frequency of feeling ... so you can feel it fully but a little bit later.
In another words..... Ping is bad but bandwidth is pretty high.
 
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it is reaction time and not the frequency of feeling ... so you can feel it fully but a little bit later.
In another words..... Ping is bad but bandwidth is pretty high.

The distinction between detection time and response time is important one. Bobpuls is right.

However, a 1 ms stimulus is too short to detect with cutaneous mechanreceptors, even as a ping. For example, the fastest ones can detect a vibrating stimulus of 100 Hz, which falls off dramatically if this is increased to 200 Hz, which would correspond to a ping of 5-10 ms (and closer to 10 ms). This is much longer than dwell time. But then of course, for that stimulus to get to the brain where it is actually turned into a perception, with axon conduction velocities, and multiple synaptic delays at various levels of spinal cord, brainstem, thalamus, etc. etc. etc. is a whole lot longer than the 10 ms!! And then to make a motor response, where the resulting decision is turned into a movement, it is again a whole lot longer than that.
 
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I came to this convo late and haven't caught up, but from what I'm gleaming tthere is discussion regarding sensory deprevation of sorts to heighten/enhance sensory feedback?

if this is the case, I think arguing this will guarantee said outcome is careless. The outcome will vary from player to player. I'm inclined to argue it will actually dampen your senses, or possibly create false feedback. Training with equipment that provides exaggerated feedback will allow you to hone in on the feel/sense that you are looking for.

It it has been my experience to use both offensive gear and all round gear in practice to isolate and enhance. At the very least start with allround equipment to identify what exactly you are looking for. Optionally keep returning to it to make sure you aren't chasing false feedback whenever you switch.

Anyways, that is my ramble, I'm on my phone so I'm guessing the crux of the argument at hand. And you know what they say about assuming...
 
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You know what, I thought about this a different way. I'm not hung up on this either.

Let's say the amount of time a ball is in contact with a blade is always between .1ms and 1ms. Always way faster than something you can feel. Now I'm okay with the idea that the amount of time that the ball is on the rubber and blade face may ALWAYS be too short a time for us to ACCURATELY feel it.

So, here is the scenario: regardless of that, with a blade that allows you to feel "the ball contact" better, YOU CAN feel the difference between good contact and bad contact. You can feel the difference between smack and brush, between thin brush and and deeper brush, between crunch and pop (crunch = loopdrive with spin and deep contact; and pop = corking sound from heavy topspin on a counterloop vs an incoming ball that also has heavy topspin).

Now I don't care if what I feel....if what the vibrations from the blade to my hand to my brain represent exactly what is actually happening. And anyone who tries to tell you that during a stroke you can feel bad contact and change it to better contact is just fooling themselves. Because that is just nonsense. You can't change the contact mid-stroke.

But over time feeling those sensations helps your neuromuscular system sort out how to make more refined contact.

Our brains and our nervous systems are nothing short of amazing.

And part of how we know that good contact is good and bad contact is bad, is that, as we feel the sensation of bad contact, our shot is invariably a mishit or a weakly hit ball and not the shot we were attempting. And when we feel good contact, we also see a good quality shot.

Now I am going to talk about something else for a moment and get back to wrapping up what I am saying even though, perhaps you can see where I am going. I like stories.

So, Since I started playing at 44 I can remember some of those fundamental skills not being there and then kind of magically appearing. I can remember not being able to see sidespin and somehow magically missing the ball and feeling like it went right through a hole in my racket. I can remember starting to be able to block heavy sidespin loops and thinking, "wow, I got my racket on the ball." And I can remember starting to see sidespin right off contact and having a pretty decent idea of where the ball would end up as it was being hit. Then I also remember a point where to return those sidespin loops I had to return with inside out spin or I couldn't control them. And then I remember getting the feel of returning a sidespin loop with even more sidespin. All these things occurred on a subcortical level. I had no idea the development was occurring. And somehow, my brain put the pieces of the puzzle together without my conscious knowledge or understanding. It simply happened over time.

I also remember hitting with a friend who is lefty. I train with this guy a decent amount. His lefty hook is pretty good. I remember just not being able to see the ball right. It was a very odd and frustrating experience. My brain just couldn't piece together where the darn ball was. Now, I should qualify this. When I was hitting with my BH I was fine. But when I was trying to take his hook with my FH, it was like the ball was a phantom. I saw it. But I really just couldn't judge at all where it was in space. AT ALL!!!!

With this one too, I remember my brain at a certain point pieced the puzzle together and just started to know what to do with a lefty hook. I got good enough at handling lefty hooks that at a certain point, when I hit with DTran--he is a lefty who is a 2400-2500 player--I didn't have much trouble reading and counterlooping his loops....to the point where he was impressed because he knows my level and he knows guy's way higher level then me who had more trouble with them than I did.

Anyway, what is all this stuff about? Our neuromuscular system is pretty cool. When you think about it, just the fact that you can contact a ball in a way where you only touch the tiniest part of the edge of the ball while it is coming at you pretty fast, from a short distance away, with a curve, arc and kick from the spin on the ball, and you can move to it and make that kind of precise contact is pretty amazing.

And in spite of the length of time that the ball is in contact with the racket, I am willing to put money on it that the vibrations you feel from the contact last longer the the contact. And since we do feel something even with a blade that has things like carbon which block much of the vibrations, with one of those rackets we STILL FEEL SOMETHING when we hit the ball. There is, in fact something that you feel in your hand from the racket that roughly corresponds to the racket hitting the ball. Part of what that means is the vibrations from the contact last considerably longer than the contact.

I think I should say that again: the vibrations from the racket hitting the ball last longer than the time the ball is in contact with the racket.

If this was not true, based on the awesome information Baal has presented about us not being able to feel something that lasts under 10 milliseconds would mean that when you hit the ball, no matter how you hit the ball, no matter what kind of quality of contact you make, YOU WOULD NOT FEEL ANYTHING because the contact is too short for us to feel it.

And the fact is, you can feel, you can feel different kinds of contact. And even if you are NOT paying attention to the feeling, on a subcortical level, some part of your brain actually registers the stimulus and your neuromuscular system will, over time, adjust and you will find yourself with better contact, more refined contact, better touch, timing, ability to adjust to the placement of an incoming ball. Just like how I couldn't see or figure out where the ball was in space against those lefty hook shots and, over time, my brain just started piecing things together. I was looking and couldn't figure it out, couldn't see it, my brain could not process what my eyes were seeing, and, in stages, I started seeing what was actually happening and understanding it more accurately.

This is one of the values of a 5 ply, all wood blade with the extra feeling. Without you realizing it is happening, it helps you refine your contact and touch.


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Good Carl.. get it all out.. I can really tell your not hung up on this.. my phone said: "cant paste, text too long"..

Hahahahahaha. OMG. I just sprayed OJ out my nose!!!!


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I get though three paragraphs of Carl's last post and it made sense to me up to that point. I imagine the rest does too. If some body actually reads the whole thing let me know if it's all good.


Ok. We can feel a lot and it helps train us.
 
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I get though three paragraphs of Carl's last post and it made sense to me up to that point. I imagine the rest does too. If some body actually reads the whole thing let me know if it's all good.


Ok. We can feel a lot and it helps train us.

I had some time riding the NYC subways between classes today and I guess I never realize just how much I can go on and on.

I didn't even realize it was long because I was having fun with the stories about brain processing and going from not being able to see where the ball was in a lefty hook and then my brain figuring it out without me even realizing what was happening.


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I agree with feeling being different for flat hits and loops. Dwell time would be different too despite not being detectable, other factors and senses would give players a perception of longer dwell time.

I'm a player myself so I'm full aware of the sensation we get when we loop and I'm not denying at all that the feel is important part of the mastery. My original question was about the actual factor that affects the perception of the dwell. Probably should have asked more towards equipment side of it.
 
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