Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Suga D]

Arch, I think there is some kind of misunderstanding right here.
What everyone is trying to tell you is that there is no such thing as "light topspin"!
If it was "light" then it can't be considered as "top"

A "light" topspin is a drive!

 

[NextLevel]

What I don't get is why everyone is debating technique with someone who literally dreams at night of coaching Olah...

 

[Archosaurus]

What I don't get is why everyone is debating technique with someone who literally dreams at night of coaching Olah...

To imply that I would literally do something would mean that it's true.

You've been talking about this for days now, and I still don't get it. Did I make a joke some time back and you took it seriously?

EDIT: I'd also have to question if this is debating technique. I think this is just terminology.

I've been led to understand that a drive is just a flat hit shot, but now I've been told it's a topspin shot with light topspin. Light topspin can be produced with a brushing contact, so what is it?

To illustrate, imagine you have a low-spin ball coming at your fairly slowly, and you stroke the ball with a looping motion, but with low racket head speed. The contact is a brushing contact, not a flat one, but the spin is not very high. What is that?

@Suga D

When do you think a drive turns into a loop? What are "faux loops" as Carl called them: are those drives? Or something else?

 

[NextLevel]

To imply that I would literally do something would mean that it's true.

You've been talking about this for days now, and I still don't get it. Did I make a joke some time back and you took it seriously?

It's not true????

I'd just prefer to show video and then people can give their opinion on what it is, so we're on the same page.

This is the only relevant thing you have said. But the human mind feels the need to persuade instead of look at facts...

 

[Archosaurus]

It's not true????




This is the only relevant thing you have said. But the human mind feels the need to persuade instead of look at facts...

I'm not that crazy.


I can accept my terminology is wrong, because someone here doesn't understand what the other is saying. I could just be saying stupid things.

For now I'm personally curious as to what a topspin shot with a slow brushing motion is. The contact is the way you would contact for a brush-loop, but the racket head speed is low, and the spin is low. It's not exactly what I would call a "real loop".

Is the spin not considered as low as I consider it, or is it just something else entirely? Is this the faux loop Carl is talking about?

 

[Shuki]

set a robot to feed you underspin knuckle breakers. Convert these into topspin with a slower motion. It's going to be heavy compared to the speed of the ball. Would you guys consider these a loop? I considered these things good touch. But I also don't know how to do these with "light" topspin. So arch's slow light topspin is confusing to me.

 

[Archosaurus]

set a robot to feed you underspin knuckle breakers. Convert these into topspin with a slower motion. It's going to be heavy compared to the speed of the ball. Would you guys consider these a loop? I considered these things good touch. But I also don't know how to do these with "light" topspin. So arch's slow light topspin is confusing to me.

If the ball was no-spin or just very light spin nearing no-spin, what about then?

Ah, just in time. I'm looking at matches on YouTube and I saw this.

What is the forehand shot at 33 seconds? A loop or a drive?

There's a bit of spin from the brush contact and the side/back that she hit into, but it's not heavy in my opinion. Am I wrong?

 

[Shuki]

If the ball was no-spin or just very light spin nearing no-spin, what about then?

Ah, just in time. I'm looking at matches on YouTube and I saw this.

What is the forehand shot at 33 seconds? A loop or a drive?

There's a bit of spin from the brush contact and the side/back that she hit into, but it's not heavy in my opinion. Am I wrong?

Pretty confident this was heavier than you think. The chop definitely was. The flip may not have been heavy, it may have just been lifting the ball and trying to disguise it as slow heavy loop.

Watch the chop, she steps in with her right foot very effectively.
-Body is moving forward, quickly
-Plus watch how quickly her chop is with her raquet speed and the angle of the raquet. With the paddle moving that quickly at that angle, if she weren't creating a heavy chop, then the ball would fly extremely long.

 

[Archosaurus]

Pretty confident this was heavier than you think. The chop definitely was. The flip may not have been heavy, it may have just been lifting the ball and trying to disguise it as slow heavy loop.

Alright, thanks.

I can see the spin on the chop, definitely. For the speed of the ball its A LOT. I think we're on the same page on that.

You called the forehand shot a flip? That's interesting. What does a flip mean to you? To me, a forehand flip is an over the table shot, like you would use to return a no-spin serve.

 

[Shuki]

Alright, thanks.

I can see the spin on the chop, definitely. For the speed of the ball its A LOT. I think we're on the same page on that.

You called the forehand shot a flip? That's interesting. What does a flip mean to you? To me, a forehand flip is an over the table shot, like you would use to return a no-spin serve.

Sorry, I describe a flip as any time that someone gets rid of the backspin. So someone can flip the ball by neutralizing the spin or creating spin.

Over the table I would call a flick. Some players don't chop and actually get rid of the spin by opening their angle and lifting the ball up, but still keeping it low over the net somehow.. The result is often a dead ball. I would often compliment them on this skill because I can't do that. Saying something like "I like the way you flip the ball"

 

[Archosaurus]

Sorry, I describe a flip as any time that someone gets rid of the backspin. So someone can flip the ball by neutralizing the spin or creating spin.

Over the table I would call a flick. Some players don't chop and actually get rid of the spin by opening their angle and lifting the ball up, but still keeping it low over the net somehow.. The result is often a dead ball. I would often compliment them on this skill because I can't do that. Saying something like "I like the way you flip the ball"

Oh man, we're really getting into terminology hell here.


I know what you mean with flip, now.

Isn't that possible just because backspin will kick off the paddle, adding speed to the ball? So in a way you're aiming the arc of the ball with your racket angle. You've never done that?

 

[Shuki]

Oh man, we're really getting into terminology hell here.


I know what you mean with flip, now.

Isn't that possible just because backspin will kick off the paddle, adding speed to the ball? So in a way you're aiming the arc of the ball with your racket angle. You've never done that?

Nope, I can't deal with heavy backspin without actually chopping through it. When I don't go through it, it will burry itself into the net. I don't practice just lifting the ball up instead of chopping through it.

 

[Archosaurus]

Nope, I can't deal with heavy backspin without actually chopping through it. When I don't go through it, it will burry itself into the net. I don't practice just lifting the ball up instead of chopping through it.

Do you think you could manage it against lighter spin?

 

[Suga D]

@Suga D

When do you think a drive turns into a loop? What are "faux loops" as Carl called them: are those drives? Or something else?

I agree with Shuki. That push at 0.33 doesn't look that light and it also doesn't look like a drive to me.
I think the term you've been looking for is:
Loopdrive.
IMHO a "faux"-loop ist something else. I think Carl can elaborate a little more detailed on this, but most of the times a "faux" loop doesn't happen accidentally. It is made to deceive the opponent and make his block drop into the net.
But you're quite right, this is mostly semantics and people from a different corner of the world might even have a total different terminology for this.

 

[Shuki]

Do you think you could manage it against lighter spin?

Doing that to light spin is just touching the ball with an open angle. Lifting would cause it to go higher than I'd like. If it's light spin, I'll either chop heavy and long, poke it with an open angle to keep it short, or flip it in some way.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Isn't that possible just because backspin will kick off the paddle, adding speed to the ball? So in a way you're aiming the arc of the ball with your racket angle. You've never done that?

Nope, I can't deal with heavy backspin without actually chopping through it. When I don't go through it, it will burry itself into the net. I don't practice just lifting the ball up instead of chopping through it.

I think only one of you has felt heavy backspin! [emoji2]


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[UpSideDownCarl]

I agree with Shuki. That push at 0.33 doesn't look that light and it also doesn't look like a drive to me.
I think the term you've been looking for is:
Loopdrive.
IMHO a "faux"-loop ist something else. I think Carl can elaborate a little more detailed on this, but most of the times a "faux" loop doesn't happen accidentally. It is made to deceive the opponent and make his block drop into the net.
But you're quite right, this is mostly semantics and people from a different corner of the world might even have a total different terminology for this.

So when a good chopper chops, he will make a motion that looks the same and can produce heavy backspin, light backspin or almost no spin and we could call that last one a no spin chop or a dead chop. How the chopper does this is to change the grip pressure and the way the rubber impacts the ball.

Wally Green likes to call a faux-loop "Heavy No Spin!" He is pretty good at it. He makes it look a lot like a loop. He hits it at a pace where he gets the no spin ball to mimic the arc of a slow loop. But the ball has very little spin. And it messes a lot of opponents up at his level until they figure out what is going on.

So that is what I meant by a faux-loop. A shot that is made to look like it is a loop which is basically a dead ball. And as Suga D said, it is hard to do that by accident. But lower level players, intending to loop, sometimes contact flat and end up with an evil dead ball shot.

And if Archo has said he made a mistake when he called his shot a loop with very lite topspin and I missed it, then I am mostly done.

But it seems to me that Archo has a way of talking about this stuff that always seems to me to be a little off. And I am noticing that, once again, this thread has turned into a debate about Archo.

Truthfully that is unfortunate when there is so much good TT being played right now.


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[Archosaurus]

@UpSideDownCarl

Maybe so. I doubt anyone I've played can generate really high level backspin, so I'm just going to leave it as it is.

However, the thread hasn't turned into a debate about me at all: you're the one talking about me. We're talking about peoples' terminology in table tennis. I didn't know there are so many varying ideas about mostly the same thing.

 

[johnh]

So if you cant have a light topspin, does it than also mean you can't have a heavy topspin?


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[Ilia Minkin]

So if you cant have a light topspin, does it than also mean you can't have a heavy topspin?


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No, there are some people that like to "put heavy topspin on the ball" so much that they don't bother practicing variations