Drugs in Table Tennis?

[Andy44]

Would they allow a TT player to do multiball longer? Maybe.

Definitely. Longer, more intense training, and faster recovery for the next training session, not to mention the extra power and quickness. But not so good for the liver and other useful parts of the body. The cost benefit analysis can be tricky for players on the cusp of viable professional careers or, in other sports, college scholarships. Hopefully the chance of getting caught is great enough now that few players will risk it.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yep. I would never advocate for doing something that could do as much damage to your organs as steroids can. I am just saying that things like that can't give you the fine motor skillz you need for TT; But they can make it so you can train longer and with more intensity. And that can help you develop the skillz used in TT. So, performance enhancing drugs can help you get better faster. But the relationship to performance, in a sport like TT is not exactly how most people would think of how they work.

They did not just give Barry Bonds more brute power. That was not the only reason why more balls went over the fence. They helped there too. But the particular home run I was talking about, the swing was fast and effortless. It wasn't about strength. It was about precision, speed and perfect timing. He got those things because of how many more hours he was able to stand in the batter's cage. Yep, there were the homers where he muscled it over. That would not have worked or been needed with this fastball I am talking about. It was the delicate precision that I was talking about. The kind of thing you only get from putting extra hours in.

I think it would be good if all sports were clean. All I am doing is explaining how a performance enhancing drug really could help someone training to improve at TT.

 

[Baal]

That swing was there when he was skinny.

But your larger point is probably right.

The 2017 ITTF Handbook describes their compiance with the most stringent WADA rules, including there use of the Biological Passport system. So TT dopers trying to use EPO (probably none since no use in our sport) or any testosterone or glucocorticoid (the likely substances for TT) , even out of competition, will most likely be caught. Players in the world top 250 are required to be in this system. They started this in 2015. The ITTF tested before that but not as strictly.

What about players not yet at that level? It varies from country to cpountry. So afe some you g TT players doping? Probably.

 

[yoass]

That is true, but if two players are very close (like #1 and #2 in the World), then a slight variation in physical condition can be a deciding factor between the win and the loss. All pros nowadays do a lot of physical training for a reason.

If you ingest/use anything, there's bound to be an effect (even if it's just sugar-coated calcium or a water capsule). Even without any biochemical effect whatsoever, depending on your mindset, you'll either benefit from the placebo effect or suffer from the nocebo effect.

You can of course also use something that actually does something. You can eat a banana, a slice of bread, a bowl of rice, slab of tuna. Spoon up sugared oily nut paste like there's no tomorrow. Your competitors may have less or lower-quality resources or less expertise, and may not have the training facilities and support you have. You may train in locations that are adverse in the sense that others get to train under better circumstances: humid, hot, cold, high altitude, and so on. Your genetic makeup might even give you an advantage over others, regardless of their dedication and zeal.

Somehow we're supposed not to think of all these things as unfair, yet if somebody uses something we're not traditionally used to that is supposed to have a beneficiary effect on stamina, oxygenation, muscle buildup, after-effort recovery and so on we're supposed to turn red from indignation about how unfair this all is. I don't. I've said it before, but in sports (as in life in general) the deck is stacked from birth. There is no level playing field, there are no equal opportunities. As long as we're running the who gets to be called naive game, this is where I'm calling out those acting like doping is the epitome of unfairness and all would be peachy and rosy if only any and all would refrain. Two get born, one gets the larger bowl of rice a moment later.

And in table tennis, I'm with Tom. If you weight lifts or cycle, there are physiological processes that can be targeted for improvement. TT is a bit more complex. It's not just power, stamina, but it's also a high level of concentration, mental and physical agility, and extreme combinations of both coarse and fine motorics, with several quite independent motoric systems executing in parallel. You need to be relaxed, and deliver power. Opiods can give you relaxation, steroids might get you some power; but the one messes up the other. Mix them up, and you'll be playing like Wile E. Coyote in no time.

This is true beyond table tennis, but I think it certainly applies to TT: the substance that enhances some aspect of your performance is bound to affect other aspects too, and not in a good way at that. TT is a subtle mix of things. Messing with that balance is very unlikely to improve your game.

 

[EmRatThich]

During the 1980s-1990s, doping in China is allowed by the Chinese government.
- However, in table tennis, doping is less required than in other sports. It's riskier than reward.
- There is also some "false case" like Like Guoliang, and Ovtcharov. These players have suffered a lot, during the trial test. Train every day, don't eat too much, weight loss, just drink, and stress.

 

[Baal]

In 1980s-90s doping was not just allowed by Chinese government, it was organized and mandated by the government, as with Russia much more recently.

 

[Baal]

If you ingest/use anything, there's bound to be an effect (even if it's just sugar-coated calcium or a water capsule). Even without any biochemical effect whatsoever, depending on your mindset, you'll either benefit from the placebo effect or suffer from the nocebo effect.

You can of course also use something that actually does something. You can eat a banana, a slice of bread, a bowl of rice, slab of tuna. Spoon up sugared oily nut paste like there's no tomorrow. Your competitors may have less or lower-quality resources or less expertise, and may not have the training facilities and support you have. You may train in locations that are adverse in the sense that others get to train under better circumstances: humid, hot, cold, high altitude, and so on. Your genetic makeup might even give you an advantage over others, regardless of their dedication and zeal.

Somehow we're supposed not to think of all these things as unfair, yet if somebody uses something we're not traditionally used to that is supposed to have a beneficiary effect on stamina, oxygenation, muscle buildup, after-effort recovery and so on we're supposed to turn red from indignation about how unfair this all is. I don't. I've said it before, but in sports (as in life in general) the deck is stacked from birth. There is no level playing field, there are no equal opportunities. As long as we're running the who gets to be called naive game, this is where I'm calling out those acting like doping is the epitome of unfairness and all would be peachy and rosy if only any and all would refrain. Two get born, one gets the larger bowl of rice a moment later.

And in table tennis, I'm with Tom. If you weight lifts or cycle, there are physiological processes that can be targeted for improvement. TT is a bit more complex. It's not just power, stamina, but it's also a high level of concentration, mental and physical agility, and extreme combinations of both coarse and fine motorics, with several quite independent motoric systems executing in parallel. You need to be relaxed, and deliver power. Opiods can give you relaxation, steroids might get you some power; but the one messes up the other. Mix them up, and you'll be playing like Wile E. Coyote in no time.

This is true beyond table tennis, but I think it certainly applies to TT: the substance that enhances some aspect of your performance is bound to affect other aspects too, and not in a good way at that. TT is a subtle mix of things. Messing with that balance is very unlikely to improve your game.

Athletes shouldn't have to risk their long term health with drugs to remain competitive. That is why anti-doping efforts are needed. That was where pro cycling found itself at a point. If you didn't dope you had no chance. People died from it.

TT is a very different sport. Still, Carl described the rationale a young upcoming player might use for cheating.

Once they reach a level where they get tested, there is high chance of getting caught now. But not too many years back it was easier to get away with it. And even now, at lower levels, there is no testing.

 

[yoass]

In 1980s-90s doping was not just allowed by Chinese government, it was organized and mandated by the government, as with Russia much more recently.

That's a tradition dating futher back. East-Germany, and in US athletics in that same period doping depth and width also should give pause to consider it as system-level endemic. I did once get to touch upon this subject with a british athlete buddy I happen to run into every now and then (one from the golden team that struck gold by winning the 4x400 relay in 1991 over the US), and he was pretty frank about doping being available and a certain level of pressure towards it. That's already bordering on system-level use.

That being said, pointing fingers is easy but I've seen nothing really specific mentioned about table tennis here, except for a supposedly false positive doping tale involving LGL that somehow Rain and Emrat seem to consider public knowledge. I know not of this story, Rain, care to enlighten me?

 

[Ioiettino]

For all that's been said about physical endurance and the relative lesser need when compared to other sports, I am also wondering: what about improving mental activity and focus, removing self-doubt, etc.?
It is a genuine question, most likely we'd be talking about other kinds of drugs but it'd make sense and perhaps not be what WADA and the likes focus on, or at least not as much?
Pure speculation on my end, mind you. I also like to think TT is relatively clean.

 

[Garrison]

There are not just drugs that enhance stamina, there are all kind of substances for everything you can imagine. This is a very serious topic and I am actually surprised that there has not been a single case in recent years. Makes me wonder how much testing they do.

Take Adderall for example, it brings "increased alertness, apprehension, concentration, initiative and self-confidence", all key factors in table tennis.

 

[yoass]

Athletes shouldn't have to risk their long term health with drugs to remain competitive. That is why anti-doping efforts are needed. That was where pro cycling found itself at a point. If you didn't dope you had no chance. People died from it.

That's true, Baal. Yet the very same argument applies to top sports more generally. At some point, there is a point at which excercise stops to be good for your health, but is taxing your physionomy too much. People shorten their lifespan by overexcersizing. Not just as an immediate effect, with directly overload-related injury as the most visible result; but also in the long term, with complex organ and heart/vascular issues (and in some sports, brain damage after taking too much injury too often; and that's not just boxing).

Excercise like all things is a good thing in moderation. Pro sports is not done in moderation, it is where those seeking the absolute top seek to go beyond their bodily limits — wreaking havoc already even before and without considering additional chemicals. I don't think doping should be surprising, considering that; it's just a nearly logical small next step on that trajectory of physical destruction by overexploitation.

 

[berndtjgmann]

In 1980s-90s doping was not just allowed by Chinese government, it was organized and mandated by the government, as with Russia much more recently.

(pasted from an excerpt in the Irish Times, October 22, 2017)

“If anyone refused doping, they were thrown out of the team. The children’s teams were the first to be given the drugs. The youngest were only 11 years old. I couldn’t do anything about it. They only approached me once there were problems. One trainer came to me and said: Dr Xue, the boys’ breasts keep getting bigger. These boys were about 13 to 14 years old. I asked: how did this happen? And he said: it’s because of the substances that Chen Zhanghao gave them.”

(statement by Dr. Xue XinxIan, a physician to the Chinese National Teams in the 1980s and 1990s)

Chen Zhanghao was the chief physician to the Chinese national teams. As early as 2012 he admitted that doping took place in China.

(Note) The WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) was established November 10, 1999.

 

[Baal]

That's a tradition dating futher back. East-Germany, and in US athletics in that same period doping depth and width also should give pause to consider it as system-level endemic. I did once get to touch upon this subject with a british athlete buddy I happen to run into every now and then (one from the golden team that struck gold by winning the 4x400 relay in 1991 over the US), and he was pretty frank about doping being available and a certain level of pressure towards it. That's already bordering on system-level use.

That being said, pointing fingers is easy but I've seen nothing really specific mentioned about table tennis here, except for a supposedly false positive doping tale involving LGL that somehow Rain and Emrat seem to consider public knowledge. I know not of this story, Rain, care to enlighten me?

All this is true.

Here are a few things I know. Ovtcharov and LGL were found to have clenbuterol in tests, a banned anto-asthma drug, that causes increased muscle response to exercise (but not increased strength). In China and Mexico it is possible to be exposed to those amounts by simply eating beef or pork, since it is sometimes used as a feed additive. Neither player received any sanction or has had any other positive test result.

Barney Reed served a ban for taking testosterone. That was quite a few years ago.

Shibaev has been mentioned mainly because he is Russian and the anti-doping agency there was hiding positive tests and faking negative ones. He was cleared to play at Rio and as far as I know has never failed a test and beyond being Russian, there has been no reason to suspect him.

There might be some players we haven't heard about but those are the ones that get discussed.

 

[WorkerBee]

I think I had better wake some of you guys up. We are decades past the time in professional sports when the adage "innocent until proven guilty" applies. Way past. Whether it be betting scandals, rape scandals, or illegal drug scandals, professional sports has been neck deep in illegal activity for a long time. This is not unfounded accusations. Unfortunately, it is always years later that anyone pays for these crimes. So please stop acting all holier than thou and upholders of the law. We are way beyond that. If these sports figures, players, coaches, and sponsors had a shred of decency, they would simply speak the truth, and humble themselves about how much money they have made at what cost to millions of sports lovers. By not admitting all these scandals, there is a common coverup going on, and any mention is construed as vile, unfounded mudslinging. Awake yet? There is an adage thousands of years old, "follow the money" when doing any investigation. This is as true now as when it was first said. If you don't start with this, you will end up misled time and time again.

 

[rainneverever]

Here is an English article describing LGL's drug test issue in 1999-2000.
Liu's athletic career wasn't always smooth. In 1999, he failed a drug test but was later clear of doping suspicions after a lengthy battle to prove his innocence. "I feel so relieved," said Liu after hearing the news. "You can hardly imagine what a kind of life I led in past six months."
After a test in a Dutch laboratory suggested an "elevated value of epitestosterone", Liu had been under great pressure. "I didn't take anything illegal, but I didn't know how to explain or convince others. I couldn't sleep well, often jolted awaken by bad dreams," Liu said.
The International Table Tennis Federation ( ITTF) cleared Liu's name after a three-month-long investigation showed "no evidence for exogenous origin of epitestosterone" in Liu's samples and there was "no doping offense".
Liu tested positive on August 8, 1999, the day he won the world singles championship in Eindhoven. One day earlier, he tested negative after taking the men's doubles event with Kong Linghui. ITTF didn't notify Liu of his positive test until October 24, 1999, when Liu was playing in the Austrian Open.
"It was shocking," Liu recalled. " 'You are finished', I told myself. I didn't know what to say, what to do. I called the Chinese Table Tennis Association (CTTA) and they said they trusted me."
Liu took two unannounced tests by the ITTF investigative officials on February 2 and 7. Both tests cleared Liu, said then CTTA general secretary Yang Shu'an.
"ITTF has used the most advanced method of doping check and they have proved Liu's innocence, " said Yang. Another CTTA official said the world ruling body of the sport had used "IRMS" -- Isotopic Ratio Measurements, to test Liu's samples.
"We've never lost trust in Guoliang," said then Chinese head coach Cai Zhenhua. "We let him play the final of the world team championships because we believe he is clean."
China lost to Sweden 3-2 in the men's final in Kuala Lumpur in February 2000, as Liu lost to both Waldner and Jorgen Persson.
In the 2000 Olympics, Liu shaved his head for a new start and took a singles bronze medal. "That bronze was more important to me than the two golds I won in Atlanta," Liu said.

http://sports.sina.com.cn/others/pingpang/2016-02-27/doc-ifxpvysx1704500.shtml
Another article in Chinese when LGL led CNT to 2016 WTTTC in Kuala Lumpur, the same place where he lost to both JO Waldner and Persson and CNT lost to Sweden 16 years ago. That was the first time he lost to JO Waldner (he beat JO Waldner 6 times before) and he once had 3 set points. He said he had huge pressure since he was notified of being positive of epitestosterone after he won 1999 WTTC and became the first Chinese grand slam winner. He barely had his mind on the table, always worried that his career was ruined if he could not prove innocent. For half a year, he almost broke down, he lived alone, stayed up till 3-4am in the morning and got up at 7 am, waiting for ITTF spot drug test every 3 month. No drinking, no eating till 10 pm and he had to go to training as nothing happened because other players did not know his case. He thought he would not be selected for 2000 WTTTC because if he was still positive, the result of CNT would be canceled. But head coach Cai Zhenhua had faith in him and put him on the lineup. After the final of 2000 WTTTC, other CNT players got to know that LGL had drug test issue and ironically ONE WEEK AFTER 2000 WTTTC, ITTF officially announced that LGL was clean -- they got the results way before WTTTC and did not release it. LGL said the pressure he experienced from the drug test was way much more than playing in Olympic Games.

 

[rainneverever]

A nice LGL video made by Audi which was released in early June 2017. LGL talked about the drug test affair at the end of his career as an athlete, his career as a coach, head coach, chief coach and his vision of the future of table tennis. He also proudly talked about his wife and daughters.

While half a month later, he was no longer the CNT coach. Yesterday he showed up with ML, FZD, LGY, DN and WMY, the first time together with CNT players after his dismissal, filming 2018 Chinese New Year Sports Gala, a special TV program run by GAS and CCTV.

A little off topic, though.

 

[Suga D]

In table tennis, I can't imagine any combination of drugs can transform a player ranked 100 in the world in to a world champion.

That is true, but if two players are very close (like #1 and #2 in the World), then a slight variation in physical condition can be a deciding factor between the win and the loss. All pros nowadays do a lot of physical training for a reason.

Exactly.
Maybe not steroids, but there are substances out there to raise the user's vigilance. I could imagine that these could be consumed by some.

 

[DJeX]

Well, I remember reading an article about Ma Long saying that he drinks to give him confidence, as he has low self esteem apparently.

 

[TTLOVE]

I know that Mondello when he wins against Persson, was under cocaine. Cocaine is probably the best drug for a table tennis player. Those who use cocaine in small quantities (up to 100 milligrams) feel euphoric, energetic, mentally active, paying particular attention to visual, auditory and tactile sensations.

 

[Der_Echte]

There are not just drugs that enhance stamina, there are all kind of substances for everything you can imagine. This is a very serious topic and I am actually surprised that there has not been a single case in recent years. Makes me wonder how much testing they do.

Take Adderall for example, it brings "increased alertness, apprehension, concentration, initiative and self-confidence", all key factors in table tennis.

Yup. Good ole Adderall... prescribed by medical authorities in USA like candy... right next to opiods prescribed for things a sip of water would have effective result...

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