How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

[IB66]

Hi Wrighty,

Perhaps both strokes could be a little more compact, with regard to finishing position.
A fast return to ready position can also be practiced.
compact stroke plus fast return to ready position = you gain some time and are better placed to play the next shot.
Some more use of the wrist.!!!! Loosee goosee

Refer back to Tom’s vid NL posted for the FH. Replicate that and you’ll be good to go!!

You can try and get the wrist working better by using the robot and ONLY using your wrist to hit the ball, no arms, legs etc just the wrist. flicking with the wrist at the angle your bat is at. Not slapping.
start with loose grip, no tightening of finger and thumb
you can add some finger / thumb pressure later and see what difference it makes. Ti Long style!!!

 

[Wrighty67]

I remember that you have some calf issue, but do you have any knee/leg issues as well? If not then lifting backspin on the FH side is probably best done with the legs.

Also, in terms of timing, your FH loop is hitting the ball at the top of the bounce. That's the ideal timing for a loop drive. If you want to brush loop then it's usually better at the falling stage. You get better grip of the ball that way and you can get better consistency, spin, and a lower trajectory.

Thanks, and well remembered- no leg/knee issue thankfully!

I was practicing a loop drive - I typically hit too low/late on my loops both sides so want to pray stop of bounce stroke with more penetration.

 

[IB66]

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[Wrighty67]

Hi Wrighty,

Perhaps both strokes could be a little more compact, with regard to finishing position.
A fast return to ready position can also be practiced.
compact stroke plus fast return to ready position = you gain some time and are better placed to play the next shot.
Some more use of the wrist.!!!! Loosee goosee

Refer back to Tom’s vid NL posted for the FH. Replicate that and you’ll be good to go!!

You can try and get the wrist working better by using the robot and ONLY using your wrist to hit the ball, no arms, legs etc just the wrist. flicking with the wrist at the angle your bat is at. Not slapping.
start with loose grip, no tightening of finger and thumb
you can add some finger / thumb pressure later and see what difference it makes. Ti Long style!!!

Thanks IB

Compact - yep, agree just not sure how to get to it

The Tom Lodiziak vid of Emma was my visual on this but struggling to close the gap between mine and hers!

 

[pingpongpaddy]

Hi team

I’ve a couple of videos that I would appreciate feedback on pls.

1st one is BH loop V4 backspin and 2nd one is FH loop vs under spin.

My big focus on FH following recent comments on here, was to involve less upper arm and shoulder and drive spin through forearm and wrist - keeping elbow low.

Before I invest further time grooving this, does this look fundamentally closer to that?

FH

BH

Thanks all.

HI WRIGHTY
I think you have a pretty good idea of both shots.
However you would be well advised to practice that fh against chop from the BH corner as that is how it's best used in a match. The footwork from the bh corner is slightly different from the FH.
tactically you need to get confident stepping around from the bh corner and aiming wide of opponents bh from bhc

good luck

 

[IB66]

Thanks IB

Compact - yep, agree just not sure how to get to it

The Tom Lodiziak vid of Emma was my visual on this but struggling to close the gap between mine and hers!

See if you can use your phone, or iPad portable device.
Freeze frame at certain points, let’s say for example when she is about to start the ’hitting phase’ Get some of Carls mirror work going, check your position in the mirror v her position. Do this for various points, get The ‘feel’ of these positions. Then start to integrate into a fluid motion!!! Easier said than done!!!

 

[NextLevel]

Wrighty,

As an advanced beginner/intermediate player, there are two tendencies in a mild conflict with each other. There is the desire to get a shot that is usuable in matches and there is a desire to build out a technically adequate shot. In the short term for most beginner to intermediate players, these two goals are often in conflict when learning a new technique because being able to use the technique at the level you currently play at will compromise the technique by requiring the use of inappropriate muscles to compensate for what is not being done by the muscles that should be involved. Because you want to hit the ball with high quality without the right technical sequence for using the body.

All of this is my way of saying that you need to take a step back, maybe not even swing at a ball. Just shadow stroke exactly what you are trying to achieve in the absence of a ball. It will give is a better idea of what your shot concept really is as trying to put the ball on the table usually leads to technical compromise.

The swings you are currently doing have a lot of elements that I could correct but i think it is best for you to just show what you think the stroke should look like without a ball.

Also, it might be better to mimic the camera angle from the Emma video for rhe shots. In general, there are three positions from which a coach would observe you. The first is the traditional front view tou have, but the others are from the side and the back in depending on the technique being demonstrated to see what your whole body is doing especially the legs.

In general, you need to take a step back from hitting the ball and just show that you have the right muscle sequence without the ball.

All that said, technical work is annoying and painful so I understand if you dont want to get into it over the internet. I think your shots will likely be okay for matches but will probably need revisiting to add and fix some components as they currently stand.

 

[NextLevel]

To get specific, the forehand should really be a lunging motion with a twist but it looks more like a squat. The arm movement looks fine but I would argue that the arm is doing too much work in a different way on this shot because the legs/torso should spin the racket better.

The backhand looks better. But there is still a bit too much upward motion from not necessarily the Optimal places. I think there is more room for an improved arm swing because I suspect the wrist isn't doing what I think is optimal. That said the squat is quite good. But for ideal technique most of the stroke isn't about coming up but about straightening the back after leaning forward. But I do think the backhand is more adequate that the forehand.

And all this is probably meaningless criticism because the stroke will likely get the job done. I just think that one should be aware that locking yourself into match ready technique on the short term often leads to issues. It would be like trying to squat a heavy weight rather than slowly building up to it.

 

[Wrighty67]

To get specific, the forehand should really be a lunging motion with a twist but it looks more like a squat. The arm movement looks fine but I would argue that the arm is doing too much work in a different way on this shot because the legs/torso should spin the racket better.

The backhand looks better. But there is still a bit too much upward motion from not necessarily the Optimal places. I think there is more room for an improved arm swing because I suspect the wrist isn't doing what I think is optimal. That said the squat is quite good. But for ideal technique most of the stroke isn't about coming up but about straightening the back after leaning forward. But I do think the backhand is more adequate that the forehand.

And all this is probably meaningless criticism because the stroke will likely get the job done. I just think that one should be aware that locking yourself into match ready technique on the short term often leads to issues. It would be like trying to squat a heavy weight rather than slowly building up to it.

Hi NL

Great advice as always, thank you.

I certainly understand the challenge you raise re technical proficiency vs match play - the two don’t play nicely and I have half a season to deal with so need to find a compromise here.

I am committed to finding the technical corrections to make my stroke look and operate efficiently and with spin and penetration but even if I shadow play, right now I’m not sure what I’m missing as a trigger to the right muscle use.

I would like to explore further the comment re “lunging motion with a twist vs squat” and how to make this a movement I can shadow - I’ll try today.

I agree FH is where the issue really lies but ironically this is the stroke I rely on most in matches.

 

[dingyibvs]

Hi NL

Great advice as always, thank you.

I certainly understand the challenge you raise re technical proficiency vs match play - the two don’t play nicely and I have half a season to deal with so need to find a compromise here.

I am committed to finding the technical corrections to make my stroke look and operate efficiently and with spin and penetration but even if I shadow play, right now I’m not sure what I’m missing as a trigger to the right muscle use.

I would like to explore further the comment re “lunging motion with a twist vs squat” and how to make this a movement I can shadow - I’ll try today.

I agree FH is where the issue really lies but ironically this is the stroke I rely on most in matches.

I've been doing a deep dive into FH motion for the past couple of months, so I'll give it a shot. Unlike the BH, you primarily generate power on the FH through your core, and that involves 3 major muscle groups, the quads, the glutes, and the obliques/abs/lower back.

Quads: squat during the backswing, kick with your right leg during forward swing, the first muscles to activate during the forward swing. Left quad remains in squat position and only plays a stabilizing role.

Glutes: rotate your hip from left to right during backswing, you should feel your right glute being stretched during this phase. Rotate your hip from right to left during forward swing, second to activate.

Abs/oblique/back: rotate your upper body from left to right, and lower your right shoulder during backswing. You should feel your right obliques contracting during this phase. Opposite direction during forward swing.

Your weight should be almost entirely on your right foot during maximal backswing, then shift your weight towars your left foot during forward swing. At the end of the swing you should be roughly neutral in weight distribution or slightly leftor right depending on specific shots. This right to left weight shift feel is what you're looking for.

Now here's a tip on how to get this right, and I have just found this out. Get a barbell, put some weight on one end. Hold it with both hands and try to swing it from right to left. You can't really do it without engaging your core, it's too heavy. For a DIY you can just tape a couple water bottles to the end of a broomstick.

 

[Wrighty67]

I've been doing a deep dive into FH motion for the past couple of months, so I'll give it a shot. Unlike the BH, you primarily generate power on the FH through your core, and that involves 3 major muscle groups, the quads, the glutes, and the obliques/abs/lower back.

Quads: squat during the backswing, kick with your right leg during forward swing, the first muscles to activate during the forward swing. Left quad remains in squat position and only plays a stabilizing role.

Glutes: rotate your hip from left to right during backswing, you should feel your right glute being stretched during this phase. Rotate your hip from right to left during forward swing, second to activate.

Abs/oblique/back: rotate your upper body from left to right, and lower your right shoulder during backswing. You should feel your right obliques contracting during this phase. Opposite direction during forward swing.

Your weight should be almost entirely on your right foot during maximal backswing, then shift your weight towars your left foot during forward swing. At the end of the swing you should be roughly neutral in weight distribution or slightly leftor right depending on specific shots. This right to left weight shift feel is what you're looking for.

Now here's a tip on how to get this right, and I have just found this out. Get a barbell, put some weight on one end. Hold it with both hands and try to swing it from right to left. You can't really do it without engaging your core, it's too heavy. For a DIY you can just tape a couple water bottles to the end of a broomstick.

Nice, that’s a really helpful sequence - I can certainly have a play with that. Thanks!

 

[Wrighty67]

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Thanks for these IB!

 

[Brs]

I am rubbish with TJ advice so take fwiw.

Both strokes look a bit effortful to me. As if you want to force the ball to spin instead of spinning it with feeling.
It works, and both are very serviceable strokes.

There may be a limit on how much spin you can generate by force, that would be higher if you spun it more with timing and touch.

 

[Wrighty67]

Hi all - I did some work on this today and recorded a shadow practice and then some hitting.

Shadow;

FH

BH

I think I see an improvement in a more compact and less shoulder led stroke, with more lower body action?

 

[Wrighty67]

I am rubbish with TJ advice so take fwiw.

Both strokes look a bit effortful to me. As if you want to force the ball to spin instead of spinning it with feeling.
It works, and both are very serviceable strokes.

There may be a limit on how much spin you can generate by force, that would be higher if you spun it more with timing and touch.

Lol - it’s definitely effortful! I agree completely though that it doesn’t look relaxed or free flowing but that’s maybe me trying to force a change.

 

[dingyibvs]

Hi all - I did some work on this today and recorded a shadow practice and then some hitting.

Shadow;

FH

BH

I think I see an improvement in a more compact and less shoulder led stroke, with more lower body action?

Yeah, I definitely see some improvement. I can also see the same thing when I try a new form, which is that every shot looks different lol. You're still remembering just bits and pieces of the new form with each shot, sometimes using legs but forget to use hips, sometimes use hips but forget to use legs, etc. But don't worry, it'll come with time.

What I've found to be helpful is to slow the feed rate from the robot down. At first maybe only a ball every few seconds so you have some time to think about the form before performing the shot. Then gradually increase the speed, ensuring that you're executing each shot with the new form. It takes a couple weeks to be able to do it with every shot, then another couple weeks to the point where you don't have to think about it from the first time you step up to the table. Until then a conscious effort needs to be made on every shot to execute the new form.

On a separate note, notice how you kick up a lot more during shadow training, but not during your training with the robot. That's because kicking up is what you do when brush looping, you do that when a backspin ball falls to around table height or lower. When you're training with the robot you're hitting the ball far earlier, and you naturally adjust to not kick up. You should decide which one you want to train.

If you want to train brush loop, then loop the ball later. Maybe make the robot shoot the ball shorter, so you'd have no choice but to loop when it's around table height. If you want to train power loop, then take the ball as you are now, but when shadow training don't kick up so much, kick mostly from back right to front left.

 

[Wrighty67]

Yeah, I definitely see some improvement. I can also see the same thing when I try a new form, which is that every shot looks different lol. You're still remembering just bits and pieces of the new form with each shot, sometimes using legs but forget to use hips, sometimes use hips but forget to use legs, etc. But don't worry, it'll come with time.

What I've found to be helpful is to slow the feed rate from the robot down. At first maybe only a ball every few seconds so you have some time to think about the form before performing the shot. Then gradually increase the speed, ensuring that you're executing each shot with the new form. It takes a couple weeks to be able to do it with every shot, then another couple weeks to the point where you don't have to think about it from the first time you step up to the table. Until then a conscious effort needs to be made on every shot to execute the new form.

On a separate note, notice how you kick up a lot more during shadow training, but not during your training with the robot. That's because kicking up is what you do when brush looping, you do that when a backspin ball falls to around table height or lower. When you're training with the robot you're hitting the ball far earlier, and you naturally adjust to not kick up. You should decide which one you want to train.

If you want to train brush loop, then loop the ball later. Maybe make the robot shoot the ball shorter, so you'd have no choice but to loop when it's around table height. If you want to train power loop, then take the ball as you are now, but when shadow training don't kick up so much, kick mostly from back right to front left.

Ha! You’re 100% right - each time I forget something and remember something else!

I want to power loop right now on both wings - when I look at the Emma video she seems to kick up more than forward so but she seems to be taking the ball at top of bounce?

 

[dingyibvs]

Ha! You’re 100% right - each time I forget something and remember something else!

I want to power loop right now on both wings - when I look at the Emma video she seems to kick up more than forward so but she seems to be taking the ball at top of bounce?

Watch it again! If look at how much your legs straighten out vs hers, and pay attention to where her right knee is pointing at the start of the forward swing and where it's pointing at the end of the swing. I used to get this wrong too, but the motion of the lower body is one of turning from right to left, shifting weight from right foot toward left foot. Her hip doesn't move much vertically at all. If she kicked up her hips would've moved up and legs straightened out.

The part of the body that lifts up is the UPPER body. Pay attention this time to where her right shoulder is at the start of the forward swing vs where it ends. She contracts her right abs and obliques to compress her right side of the upper body down, and her right shoulder is much lower than her left shoulder. She then contracts the opposite side abs/obliques and finishes with the two shoulders squared.

 

[Wrighty67]

Watch it again! If look at how much your legs straighten out vs hers, and pay attention to where her right knee is pointing at the start of the forward swing and where it's pointing at the end of the swing. I used to get this wrong too, but the motion of the lower body is one of turning from right to left, shifting weight from right foot toward left foot. Her hip doesn't move much vertically at all. If she kicked up her hips would've moved up and legs straightened out.

The part of the body that lifts up is the UPPER body. Pay attention this time to where her right shoulder is at the start of the forward swing vs where it ends. She contracts her right abs and obliques to compress her right side of the upper body down, and her right shoulder is much lower than her left shoulder. She then contracts the opposite side abs/obliques and finishes with the two shoulders squared.

Your observation skills are on point - thanks.

I see her knee pointing outwards then rotating towards the front and her shoulder increasing in height as she straightens up post contact.

I find it a struggle to get the two different planes - lower body height staying level as it rotates but upper body rising as she strikes and finishes.

 

[dingyibvs]

Your observation skills are on point - thanks.

I see her knee pointing outwards then rotating towards the front and her shoulder increasing in height as she straightens up post contact.

I find it a struggle to get the two different planes - lower body height staying level as it rotates but upper body rising as she strikes and finishes.

You can practice them separately, I did that to start. Just get your legs and hips to rotate the right way first, then add the upper body when you're used to it.

I'm about to start my FH focused training. I've been doing about 60% BH, 25% FH, 10% service, and 5% short game. Later this week I'll flip the FH/BH ratio and keep everything else the same. Even with a reduced FH workload I've been able to make quite a bit of progress in correcting my FH form. I'm not looking for perfection, just something more stable.

On that topic, I've found that I've been using my legs wrong. From the get go I trained the forward leaning loop, where my right leg kicks forward and lands a few inches in front of where it started at the end of a loop. That's fine against a floaty ball, and it's particularly useful when there's suddenly a short return when I'm away from the table. However, against faster balls I can't get to the ball fast enough and my recovery is slow. One of the issue is that to execute this shot, the ball needs to be somewhat in front of me, like ~45 degrees to my right, and when the ball is coming fast I can't get to it that quickly.

With the new motion I've found out two things. One is that it's optimal to take the ball later, ~15 degrees in front of you, or the right to left motion will loop the ball way off the left side of the table. This allows me the time to get to faster balls much more comfortably.

The second thing is that my legs are actually more for positioning and stability rather than power directly. First, they positions the rest of my body along all 3 axes (very important to adjust height for the vertical axis!) so I can get thr most comfortable shot. This is particularly important for the BH where the hit box is smaller. You see pros even jumping in the air sometimes to hit a BH loop.

The second thing is that it acts as an anchor for the rest of the body to generate power. During the backswing when the entire body leans right, the right leg maintains stability. When weight transfers to the left during the forward swing, the left leg assumes a prominent role. Only when doing the forward leaning shot or a brush loop do the legs actually provide a lot of power.