WTT Champions Frankfurt 2023

[driversbeat]

Well, she would get 10 pts (the first win over CM was in 2022 so no points), putting her in 45th place (would've been 28th if that first win counted) in the player standings. But when it comes to beating top 3 CNT players, she would rank 3rd.

For comparison:
Hirano has 25 pts from 3-2 WYD (WR3) at Singapore Smash 2023 and 4-3 SYS (WR1) at WTT CT Zagreb 2023
Hayata has 15 pts from 4-3 WYD (WR3) at WTTC 2023

I'm just wondering how she would have fared at the Japanese internal trials. I don't recall her ever beating Hayata/Hirano/Ito, but at the same time JTTA is the kind of crazy association that would deny someone who's beaten Chen Meng and CXT an Olympic singles spot.

 

[lodro]

now that I got all the wise men of TT here, I thought somebody can answer this : " What is all that crap on ShaSha's rubber ?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

So if Harimoto's parents had moved to Korea and not Japan, he would be a gold medallist?

well, given Japan's lack of depth today, maybe Korea would have been a better move.
Japanese mens team is really weak and HT is a lone wolf at the moment. You do need some form of competition and not becoming 15 or 16 year old super stars and be worn out by 22 years old. Problem with Japan, it isn't 1 player, it is a whole bunch.

Can't take away the stats, but:
Japan at best only got 2 bronze in singles.
Korea has 2 gold, 1 silver, 3 bronze in singles

The only question around Japan and the Harimotos is, how much money did they get that helped develop they kids. With the amount given, I doubt any nation could beat that, and without that kind of money injection, would the two of them still be that "good" today.
But, teenage superstars has never been a good thing, and coaches around me has been saying it since Ai's days. TBH, I do think it has gotten worse and Japanese mens as a "team" has really fallen off the radar.

I do hope that Miwa doesn't become a next teenage super star to fall after hitting early 20s, but rather, her peak gets climbing higher after early 20s. But it does seem like Miwa will be rushed into the front line pretty early too (if not already)

 

[JeffM]

Now I want to see Harimoto vs Lin Yun Ju

 

[Gtsnake]

now that I got all the wise men of TT here, I thought somebody can answer this : " What is all that crap on ShaSha's rubber ?

View attachment 27245

looks like lint from her towel.

 

[lodro]

looks like lint from her towel.

.............then she put it there deliberately to get rid of the sticky bits ????????????

 

[superbackhand]

.............then she put it there deliberately to get rid of the sticky bits ????????????

uhhhh… what is the problem? you don’t like it?

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Bernie, let's pop a bottle of bubbly, caviar with pate on toasted country! Well done!

 

[blahness]

Wtf what did I miss?! I was away just for a day! FZD LJK and CM all losing on the same day?!

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

well, given Japan's lack of depth today, maybe Korea would have been a better move.
Japanese mens team is really weak and HT is a lone wolf at the moment. You do need some form of competition and not becoming 15 or 16 year old super stars and be worn out by 22 years old. Problem with Japan, it isn't 1 player, it is a whole bunch.

Can't take away the stats, but:
Japan at best only got 2 bronze in singles.
Korea has 2 gold, 1 silver, 3 bronze in singles

The only question around Japan and the Harimotos is, how much money did they get that helped develop they kids. With the amount given, I doubt any nation could beat that, and without that kind of money injection, would the two of them still be that "good" today.
But, teenage superstars has never been a good thing, and coaches around me has been saying it since Ai's days. TBH, I do think it has gotten worse and Japanese mens as a "team" has really fallen off the radar.

I do hope that Miwa doesn't become a next teenage super star to fall after hitting early 20s, but rather, her peak gets climbing higher after early 20s. But it does seem like Miwa will be rushed into the front line pretty early too (if not already)

Sora Matsushima might be a good n2 for Japan. Time will tell.

I also think a lot of energy has been spent by promising players such like Togami and Uda in the internal tournaments. When the OG team is decided you will see them more focused on how to beat foreign players instead of how to beat each other. These players can still improve. Perhaps not to the point to beat China but at least to help Harimoto to become n2 team

 

[lodro]

uhhhh… what is the problem? you don’t like it?

She is the number one female player in the world, I want to learn of course.
Stupid me and most players I know try very hard to keep our rubbers clean
to keep the grip. Even most of the top players one sees on the TV keep exhaling breath on their rubbers and wiping the rubbers clean with the palm of their hands.
So, what gives ?????????????????????? 🤣

 

[zeio]

I'm just wondering how she would have fared at the Japanese internal trials. I don't recall her ever beating Hayata/Hirano/Ito, but at the same time JTTA is the kind of crazy association that would deny someone who's beaten Chen Meng and CXT an Olympic singles spot.

She beat Ito once in 2012 and came close against Ito at WTT CS Macao 2022 (after beating CM). Other than that, she beat Kihara, who had matchpoint, for the first time at WTT CT Lima 2023.

Her stats were bad from 2019-2022 (lost a lot before covid), and similarly from 2014-2016 (injury?). In terms of win rate, 2023 is roughly equal to 2018. But given the last 2 Olympics, I guess she would have a hard time in those selection trials early on and would have dropped out last year like Ishikawa.

2023 36/51=70.6% before WTT CS Frankfurt 2023
2022 18/33=54.5% (she managed to beat CM)
2021 10/18=55.6%
2020 3/12=25%
2019 25/43=58.1%
2018 33/47=70.2%
2017 30/41=73.2%
2016 28/49=57.1% (last U21 year)
2015 43/74=58.1%
2014 15/26=57.7%
2013 63/77=81.8% (last U18 year)
2012 66/87=75.9%
2011 93/116=80.2%
2010 109/144=75.7%
2009 91/108=84.3%
2008 22/28=78.6%

 

[SFF_lib]

Wtf what did I miss?! I was away just for a day! FZD LJK and CM all losing on the same day?!

Bernie's recovery is really fast and she's hitting fast and hard with short strokes. I think that style made CM really uncomfortable.

Lim has played really well this year in general. He loops consistently on two wings and LJK's performance is lukewarm this year.

FZD is moving at 60% of the normal speed for some reason. That led to delayed timing and many errors. Lee played fearlessly but FZD could've lost to anyone in this tournament

 

[zeio]

what was SYS age in 2019?
15 years old?
After rereading your comment, I'm not sure if you are actually understanding what I'm trying to say about CNT example where players are over 18 years old before become close to a leader and really solidating the position in there 20s.

Out of my memory without googling. FZD is likely the youngest to get a front seat in WR and CNT at a very young age. and he still had 3 to 4 big brothers keeping him in line.

Update
In fact, to proof my point (with some quick check)
at age 16, FZD hit WR10, but had 6 CNT mens ahead of him.
Within 3 months, he become a WR5 and had 4 in front of him.

This is what I mean by aging naturally

15? What are you smoking? She was 18 for most of 2019 as she was born in November (true to age).

Tokyo 2020 was an exemption, and a special one.

SYS is to Ito as LGL is to Waldner. Beating Ito at WTTC 2019 and Team World Cup 2019 was the reason SYS could play Tokyo 2020. CM came into the Olympics only with a World Cup title (we even joked about it before she even got that) and SYS only had an ATTC title (where she beat WMY, DN and LSW and CM lost to LSW again). They never got past DN, LSW and ZYL in the 3 majors and it can be argued SYS didn't even get the chance.

Li Sun told the press after SYS 4-0 Ito at Tokyo 2020 that it was the match they had thought about and practiced for every training session and every ball for 5 years. He even compared it to Sydney 2000, where Deng Yaping had retired and Wang Nan, Li Ju and Yang Ying played in the Olympics for the first time. The public opinion back then was that Wang Nang had never got past Deng Yaping.

李隼：国乒长盛不衰 是因为总有人关键时刻站出来
https://2020.cctv.com/2021/07/29/ARTIXefeWdj3isKe0XVUbR2x210729.shtml

“超出想象，这种球不可能是4比0了。这么大的压力，能发挥出正常水平非常不容易。”李隼说，女乒为了这场球已经等了5年，“我们的每一堂训练课、每一个球，都想的是这场比赛。”在混双决赛输给日本后，李隼说，整个舆论都在为孙颖莎和伊藤美诚的这场比赛造势，“虽然我们都在屏蔽这个，但她们无时无刻都在提醒这场球的重要性。”

...

“打之前，我就说这次特别像2000年悉尼奥运会，她们（陈梦、孙颖莎）都没有打过奥运会。”李隼介绍，悉尼奥运会前邓亚萍退役了，去悉尼的王楠、李菊、杨影之前都没有参加过奥运会，但这个时候总得有人站出来，“我特别希望咱们这些年轻队员能在奥运会的舞台站出来。她们发挥得这么好，这么淋漓尽致，我特别欣慰。”

李隼点评“止藤莎”：关键时刻总有人站出来
http://www.xinhuanet.com//mrdx/2021-07/30/c_1310097698.htm

Li Sun after SYS 4-1 Ito at WTTC 2019: Never have I been that nervous!
孙颖莎、李隼解读2019世乒赛大战伊藤美诚:从来没这么紧张过！
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV18P411D7QQ

LGL "mobilized" the team ahead of the WT final of Team World Cup 2019.
孙颖莎2019团体世界杯决赛前刘国梁动员，赛后手巨巨巨巨凉
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1p44y147jD

李隼：新人经受住了考验 孙颖莎：我有必胜的信念
https://sports.sina.cn/others/pingpang/2019-11-11/detail-iicezuev8577019.d.html

在赛后的记者发布会上，教练李隼说：“今天双方都打出了高水平，我们的队员也经受了考验，尤其是年轻的队员经受住了考验，对我们以后打奥运会有很大好处。”

孙颖莎说：“今天在比赛中我有一个必胜的信念，我和队伍都有信心，所以在自己落后的时候也没有放弃，我觉得自己还是可以赢回来。”陈梦表示很享受这次比赛的过程和为国而战的感觉，刘诗雯则说能够在明年奥运会的场馆获得冠军很开心，接下来将会继续好好备战奥运。

LGL gave a recap after SYS 4-2 Ito at World Cup 2020.
世界杯#孙颖莎战胜伊藤美诚，刘国梁第一时间总结比赛
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1jr4y1T7d1

Better yet, here is how SYS thinks about the issue.
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1141421

It's been 7 years since my first projection when Ishikawa (1993/2/23) was 23 years old. Now that Hirano (2000/4/14), Hayata (2000/7/7) and Ito (2000/10/20) are turning 23 as well, this is an ideal moment to make another projection. Even better, Sun Yingsha (2000/11/4) also mentioned about turning 23 this year and Harimoto in a recent interview with China Daily...

...

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1aP411U7Du

SYS
4 H2H 3 DN
https://i.imgur.com/g46BAzJ.png
5 H2H 4 LSW
https://i.imgur.com/JgI9I9h.png
0 H2H 1 ZYL
https://i.imgur.com/J5sjsRB.png
7 H2H 5 CM
https://i.imgur.com/iNYC2TL.png
10 H2H 8 WMY
https://i.imgur.com/pqIkzQ4.png

CM
5 H2H 6 DN
https://i.imgur.com/1TwfDvB.png
9 H2H 4 LSW
https://i.imgur.com/hz14kU6.png
13 H2H 11 ZYL
https://i.imgur.com/J1AhvT1.png
14 H2H 8 WMY
https://i.imgur.com/scQnTG6.png

WMY
4 H2H 1 DN
https://i.imgur.com/r9rSfY0.png
3 H2H 2 LSW
https://i.imgur.com/OB3RrFj.png
4 H2H 3 ZYL
https://i.imgur.com/xXdl27Y.png
8 H2H 10 SYS
https://i.imgur.com/Up3UkvW.png

A recent Tieba thread on why Ding Ning is not as highly regarded as Deng Yaping/Wang Nan/Zhang Yining.
讨论讨论丁宁 (Let's talk about DN)
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/8645262958

 

[Egon]

Bernie's recovery is really fast and she's hitting fast and hard with short strokes. I think that style made CM really uncomfortable.

Lim has played really well this year in general. He loops consistently on two wings and LJK's performance is lukewarm this year.

FZD is moving at 60% of the normal speed for some reason. That led to delayed timing and many errors. Lee played fearlessly but FZD could've lost to anyone in this tournament

It was in vain that the LZK changed the blade. He is a short-move player and Viscaria played much better than the long-move Long 5. Lim played just great, a clean and beautiful victory.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

15? What are you smoking? She was 18 for most of 2019 as she was born in November (true to age).

there we go, so you can't compare 15 year old Japanese women players to Chinese, can you?
Chinese are all 18 or higher before they are (all the other stuff I said already)

so, please learn to read and learn to read to understand, especially when you want to join other people's discussion and still seem totally clueless on where the "15" comes from

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Sora Matsushima might be a good n2 for Japan. Time will tell.

I also think a lot of energy has been spent by promising players such like Togami and Uda in the internal tournaments. When the OG team is decided you will see them more focused on how to beat foreign players instead of how to beat each other. These players can still improve. Perhaps not to the point to beat China but at least to help Harimoto to become n2 team

I really hope someone steps up, as HT will need someone.
CCY has been a lone wolf for a long time, and it isn't a good feeling.
CCY had Chiang Peng Lung, CCA didn't really dominate in singles, but was good in doubles.
and now Lin comes up, but you really need 3 to tango

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

but n1 team will be France anyway !!!
Allez les Bleus !

 

[Sali]

Bernie's recovery is really fast and she's hitting fast and hard with short strokes. I think that style made CM really uncomfortable.

Lim has played really well this year in general. He loops consistently on two wings and LJK's performance is lukewarm this year.

FZD is moving at 60% of the normal speed for some reason. That led to delayed timing and many errors. Lee played fearlessly but FZD could've lost to anyone in this tournament

Actually FZD had the biggest problem with LSS serves. Korean put many times empty serve or with little backspin and then it was easy to finish it with 3rd ball attack after FZD popped it too high.

 

[zeio]

there we go, so you can't compare 15 year old Japanese women players to Chinese, can you?
Chinese are all 18 or higher before they are (all the other stuff I said already)

so, please learn to read and learn to read to understand, especially when you want to join other people's discussion and still seem totally clueless on where the "15" comes from

Oh, please. The first encounters between SYS and Ito/Hirano were back in 2014, FFS. They were all born in 2000. Why make age an issue? SYS won Japan Open in 2017, when she was 16.4 years old.

Before Buenos Aires 2018 (WCQ and SYS), China never cared about the Youth Olympics. They didn't send anyone for BS and Gu Yuting for GS in 2010 and only in 2014 when it was held in Nanjing they sent FZD and Liu Gaoyang (who retired in 2019).

SYS even stated in an interview with the IOC that it was her win over Hirano at Buenos Aires 2018 that got her career into motion.

https://olympics.com/zh/news/sun-yingsha-on-2018-yog-and-tokyo-2020-experience

她表示：“我觉得青奥会还是很锻炼人的，在年轻的时候，青奥会这个舞台真的非常好。它是你从青少步入成年的一个过程，也是在考验你心理承受力以及检验你到底能打到怎样的一个程度。而且真的是你一个人在打，你输了以后没有同伴可以弥补你，“救”你，自己也知道这种残酷性。青奥会在我进入主力层，再到进入绝对主力层这个过程当中，对我而言是最好的开始。包括为什么人们觉得我在奥运会上心理强大，我觉得这和我打过青奥会还是有很大关系的。”