Backhand topspin tutorials are useless

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Anders Lindt shared a short video with just a few very useful tips to improve your backhand. It's to the point without massive of bla bla.

Mr Linds should be the last person to mimic correct text book shots. On the contrary I watched too much of him and now doing funny things too. Its good when the ball lands, and embarrassing when it doesn't

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Backhand though, I feel like it is very very subjective and depends much on the player body, height and other paramters. Thats why you see very effective and very different backhands, take the 3 first ranking players right now, they all have different backhands, Kreanga, Ovtcharov, Harimoto, Pitchford and many others. So making a tutorial is like saying people who have exatly everything like me body-wise should play their bakhands like this, which of course not the case and everyone assumes it is a universal thing and must apply to you too. Some say you should take the ball from your stomach, others say a little bit to the left. Some use body/legs some use wrist more etc ...

The only thing that is common I feel : the blade head has to point towards you more or less before meeting the ball but other than that, do whatever makes this meeting as powerful as you can and thats it.

Backhand has become so much more important today than ever. Also someone who is strong on both sides tend to last longer (Boll/Chuang)

There is no right technique, but in a nutshell you can punch the ball pack or brush the ball pack, or a bit of both, or 30/70 or 70/30.
Strokes are smaller today, and I always loved to watch women's BH to BH rallies as I felt that is true talent by using what we call quick placement. It is small stroke and uses the wrist to guide the direction of the ball.

I actually chatted to someone recently. One should actually spend way more time on BH in the early stages and learn FH later on - similar to what LYJ did. His FH was always weak, and when he matured from a tiny 15 year old to a strong and fit 18 year old, his FH became complete too

 

[NextLevel]

The examples you put are more of counter/block but even those when he is comfortable take it a bit from the side rather than the middle

Why do you think those are counters and blocks? And where precisely in those videos do you see him taking it from the side?

He is showing how to use the body to generate power, but the mechanism is not visible on most of his shots (I have seen Wang Hao show similar things). The main thing I try to show people with that mechanism is that the backhand topspin power tends to be more about pulling the racket into the ball rather than pushing it into the ball. I have found showing the mechanism with twist but never using it on actual shots to be confusing to most people unless it gives the right feeling (and in my experience, it doesn't do so necessarily, but the fact high level players show it must count for something lol).

Do you speak Korean?

 

[IB66]

The thing with Pro's is that they are also excellent at playing an 'out of position' or out of 'regular' strike zone, stroke.
Take FZD for example, fast BH rallies going on, opponent gets in a wider BH return to FZD left, and yet he plays a faster return, strike zone is well away from his LH hip, he's almost reaching out, not quite, but not playing just off of LH hip.

I would think that they are aware of the fast rallies and that sometimes you CANNOT react fast enough to get you body into position and have a 'regular' strike zone for the next shot. therefore they probably practice returning 'out of position' strokes.

 

[NextLevel]

The thing with Pro's is that they are also excellent at playing an 'out of position' or out of 'regular' strike zone, stroke.
Take FZD for example, fast BH rallies going on, opponent gets in a wider BH return to FZD left, and yet he plays a faster return, strike zone is well away from his LH hip, he's almost reaching out, not quite, but not playing just off of LH hip.

I would think that they are aware of the fast rallies and that sometimes you CANNOT react fast enough to get you body into position and have a 'regular' strike zone for the next shot. therefore they probably practice returning 'out of position' strokes.

This is true for both forehand and backhand, the speed of the game requires you to take early backswings while moving (cross and semi-cross footwork) and to swing at the ball while moving. But Musaab isn't even discussing this scenario, he is seeing something in very basic backhand countertopspin rallies that I am trying to make sense of but cannot without his input.

 

[IB66]

I hear you, the title was a bit exagerated because you know its a title. I'm not about the Pros, I mentionned them to maintain my point that they have very different techniques but a sound stroke and steady results, why is that ? my interpretation is because the stroke is subjective and very personal. My experience with tutorials is you could gain some stuff but it stay minimal, Ti Long video about the free hand when backhanding was the biggest gain so far but it was not enough in my case. Maybe I need private lessons, I only did it once but it was only for two hours.

You hit the nail on the head!! get some private lessons. If you are watching youtube tutorials, you then need to film yourself to see if what you ARE doing is actually what you THINK you are doing AND what the tutorial ADVISES you to do!! A coach will see this and correct as necessary.
.

 

[dingyibvs]

Most BH tutorials are not useful due to two reasons. First is that the BH shot is not intuitive, which means it requires actual teaching instead of just some pointers to optimize a motion. It's not intuitive because the lack of space and time dictates that most of the time you can't simply use a motion that generates the most power as you would on the FH side.

The second thing is that most Youtube tutorials we watch are done by very, very good players, and they typically got that way because they started learning at a very young age. When they learned how to play the BH, they probably weren't old enough to understand complex instructions. They just copied movements and winged it until it worked after thousands of hours of training. They can play the BH, but they don't really know how they play it, let alone explain it to others.

So basically you've got a shot that requires real teaching, and a bunch of people who can play the shot but don't know how to explain it doing tutorials.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The thing with Pro's is that they are also excellent at playing an 'out of position' or out of 'regular' strike zone, stroke.
Take FZD for example, fast BH rallies going on, opponent gets in a wider BH return to FZD left, and yet he plays a faster return, strike zone is well away from his LH hip, he's almost reaching out, not quite, but not playing just off of LH hip.

I would think that they are aware of the fast rallies and that sometimes you CANNOT react fast enough to get you body into position and have a 'regular' strike zone for the next shot. therefore they probably practice returning 'out of position' strokes.

the out of position actually happens a lot more often than one thinks, especially at the highest level.
From commentary standing point, we will call that - super shot.
Super not because it is the correct text book shot (it isn't), but rather, the quick reflexes and adjustments to get that (out of position) shot in, and not just in, but with quality.
This out of position shot some times get mis-interpretate as how one should play.... and this is not correct

 

[KM1976]

Every stroke is a part of a larger framework.
If you need to really improve your backhand then engage a coach who can help you out in stroke development and implementing the same stroke again and again in different situations. This part comes with lot of practice and patience.
If you are on your own, then I would suggest that do not watch too many tutorials. Just keep one tutorial as frame of reference which interests you and is comprehensive enough to add all the details. I am using Liam Pitchford's masterclass lessons from TTD Academy and it has proved very beneficial for my game. However, this benefit did not happen overnight and it took me lots of practice sessions to add it to my game. But, if you persists then it would definitely pay off. Just keep in mind, that with any online lesson, you need access to robot or a practice partner who can feed you with multi-balls for stroke and feel development.

 

[Der_Echte]

Most BH tutorials are not useful due to two reasons. First is that the BH shot is not intuitive, which means it requires actual teaching instead of just some pointers to optimize a motion. It's not intuitive because the lack of space and time dictates that most of the time you can't simply use a motion that generates the most power as you would on the FH side.

The second thing is that most Youtube tutorials we watch are done by very, very good players, and they typically got that way because they started learning at a very young age. When they learned how to play the BH, they probably weren't old enough to understand complex instructions. They just copied movements and winged it until it worked after thousands of hours of training. They can play the BH, but they don't really know how they play it, let alone explain it to others.

So basically you've got a shot that requires real teaching, and a bunch of people who can play the shot but don't know how to explain it doing tutorials.

TRUE.

This is why I think your coach is a reasonable dude. Not many coaches can show adults what happens in terms they can understand... since many coaches do not understand their own biomechanics.

 

[Der_Echte]

The examples you put are more of counter/block but even those when he is comfortable take it a bit from the side rather than the middle

In this vid from the start timestamp, JYS is talking about how to use the leg and knee/waist bend/turn to leverage the power... and how to use the wrist and bat start position and swing plane to make BH topspin.

This technique is for off the table. There is no way to play this shot at the table and make another shot like this - takes too long to be ready.

JYS also gets into the feeling at impact and says it is more of a rubbing the ball sensation than banging into it.

JYS is emphasizing the timing of the explosion of body moving parts - that you are exploding up and starting stroke at the same time.

That is a guiding principle for many top level coaches teaching BH - at the table shorter stroke and less to little body torque (more down and up)... and more and more away from table, more use of body torque.

Haha, at 2:21 JYS admits this and recommends for beginners it is no good to learn this kind of stroke when parked at the table... that a player should come off the table and practice this stroke. JYS then steps back to around one meter behind table. Yes, that is an appropriate distance for a BH shot that uses body rotation and torque and longer swing.

 

[AdamTT]

You hit the nail on the head!! get some private lessons. If you are watching youtube tutorials, you then need to film yourself to see if what you ARE doing is actually what you THINK you are doing AND what the tutorial ADVISES you to do!! A coach will see this and correct as necessary.
.

I had a backhand lesson for 2hours before xmas and it was invaluable. I had it with someone I follow on youtube and really like the way they teach, but it's one thing watching their videos and another thing actually having a lesson. Whilst the videos tell you the theory, the lesson helped me actually understand what I should be feeling as well as letting me know all the things I wasnt' doing but actually thought I was. For example my elbow moved too much and I was also finishing the backhand drive with my bat at an upward angle which on occasion caused the ball to obviously fly up or long. By the end of the 2 hours I was hitting much more consistently and know what to work on over the coming months.

 

[Der_Echte]

There are so many different BH shots one cannot say this technique is how you do them all. The vid is focused on how to make good powerful BH topspin off the table with a long stroke powered by body prep.

What JYS shows in this vid would be useless for playing BH at the table. There simply isn't any time to do that shot then repeat it at the table - the ball comes back too soon to do it a second time.

 

[IB66]

I had a backhand lesson for 2hours before xmas and it was invaluable. I had it with someone I follow on youtube and really like the way they teach, but it's one thing watching their videos and another thing actually having a lesson. Whilst the videos tell you the theory, the lesson helped me actually understand what I should be feeling as well as letting me know all the things I wasnt' doing but actually thought I was. For example my elbow moved too much and I was also finishing the backhand drive with my bat at an upward angle which on occasion caused the ball to obviously fly up or long. By the end of the 2 hours I was hitting much more consistently and know what to work on over the coming months.

A coach needs coaching when it comes to his own game / strokes!!! Although they could watch video footage of themselves and change what they need to. But ‘real time‘ coaching is better allround really.

 

[Atas Newton]

Anders Lindt shared a short video with just a few very useful tips to improve your backhand. It's to the point without massive of bla bla.

yeah, when he talks about waist rotation adding power - I don't see any waist rotation at all in his backhands. Is it a case of "what one feels they're doing" being very different from "what they're actually doing"? I know people use waist on big BH loops, but not Anders, not in this video anyway

 

[iammaru]

yeah, when he talks about waist rotation adding power - I don't see any waist rotation at all in his backhands. Is it a case of "what one feels they're doing" being very different from "what they're actually doing"? I know people use waist on big BH loops, but not Anders, not in this video anyway

I think most pro players must use their legs/hips more or less to hit powerful BH away from the table. It can be very visible but it can be so subtle that you won’t really “see” it. Without using the body, the shot will simply not have enough power.

Returning to the main discussion, I think online BH tutorials are just as good/ (or bad) as the FH ones. You are naturally better with FH and find the FH tutorials more useful doesn’t mean others are the same. And vice versa. Some may develop good BH from the tutorials, but not their FH. My dad had a deadly BH although his FH sucked, even if he received coaching lessons.

The OP listed pro players with different BH strokes. I can give you a similar list of different FH strokes. They are all different, but there are some common principles.

 

[dingyibvs]

yeah, when he talks about waist rotation adding power - I don't see any waist rotation at all in his backhands. Is it a case of "what one feels they're doing" being very different from "what they're actually doing"? I know people use waist on big BH loops, but not Anders, not in this video anyway

That's exactly what I'm talking about. He feels his waist being used, so he teaches it. But how can you learn it by his demonstration? There's barely any visible waist movement! I've recently worked a lot on my BH, and let me explain what actually happens.

There are two keys to this "waist usage". First, it's not about the forward swing, it's about the back swing. Second, due to the smaller hitbox on the BH side, you need to reposition your body for every shot on the BH so the ball is as close to your optimal hitbox as possible, and this needs to be done in all 3 dimensions because the BH hitbox is smaller in all 3 dimension.

I'm gonna explain the 2nd point first. The hit box is small on the BH side, in all 3 dimensions, so how do you get the ball into your hitbox, which is usually just left of your navel? It's pretty intuitive laterally, you just slide left and right. For the forward-back direction, foot movement is often not fast enough. Forward is usually fine, you move quicker in the forward direction, and if a ball comes slightly shorter than you expect, you can just wait, but if it comes a LOT more forward, then it's usually because it's a slow ball so you'd have time to just move forward. The issue is when it comes fast and long, and you don't have the time to move back. To create space, you need to suck in your belly and bend your waist a bit to the left. This only gives you a couple inches of space, but that's invaluable. Next is the up-down direction, a higher ball is usually slower, so you'll have time to stand up straighter to get to the ball, but a lower ball is often faster and spinnier. Using only the arm to get to those balls doesn't give you enough time, you need to bend your legs to get to it, and since the important thing is to get the ball slightly left of you, you'll bend your left leg a bit more.

Now what happens when you swing forward? You simply tighten up all your core muscles. Your backswing would've made your left leg slightly more bent (i.e. your left hamstring more contracted and left quad more extended), and your left waist more bent (i.e. your left obliques more contracted). When you tighten up all your core muscles on both sides, your body will naturally stand straighter. Your legs level out, your waist straightens up. It feels like you're rotating your whole body, and you are (though not very visible), but really you're just returning to a neutral position.

A couple of side points:

1) Why does doing this way add power to your shot? It's not really that tiny body rotation, per se. In physics, momentum must be conserved, so when you swing forward, there's an equal backward momentum on your body to balance the forward momentum. If your core is loose, then your core will absorb all the backward momentum, but if your core is tightened up, then the momentum is transferred to the earth beneath you. It's like running on track vs running on ice, if the ground beneath you isn't absorbing the backward momentum, then you're going nowhere.

2) You need to find your hitbox first. A lot of beginners don't even know where their hitbox is at. The forward-backward direction is often the toughest, as many beginners hit the ball too early or too late. You need to find your hitbox first before getting to the body usage stage, but that's an entirely separate tutorial. That's actually another pet peeve of mine, as many tutorials treat body usage on the BH side like they do on the FH side. They say power comes from the body, so they teach body usage first, but IMO that's wrong. On the BH side you need to learn arm usage first, because the key to body usage is positioning your body to get the ball as close as possible to your hitbox, and you can't do that until you find where your hitbox is with your arm first.

3) Note that the above is about near table BH play, when you're far from the table and want to launch a big loop, you'll need play the BH very much like the FH. You'd actively bend your left leg, twist your waist to the left, and then weight transfer to the right. You don't have time for that close to the table.

 

[Der_Echte]

Haha @dingyibvs you are articulating some of the nuances of how to adjust your strike zone... it is valuable stuff.

Yes... what is the BH strike zone. Yes... it is much smaller. Yes... how to adjust that strike zone and create space when off and cramped. Yes... how to adjust the biomechanics to the ball to do something to the ball to change your plan.

All this is valuable stuff and rarely discussed, identified, articulated, and thought about.

Yes, MANY coaches simply do not understand enough to communicate it to an adult player, because they do not truly know how they are doing it in terms of the how and why to explain to an adult.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

⬆️
Move aside Mr Lind of Denmark, this is my YT tutorial on BH. Now I am a famous YTuber as well. Yay!

Another unconventional way, go throw some frisbees for half hour. Then come back to the table to play BH.

 

[blahness]

I think most pro players must use their legs/hips more or less to hit powerful BH away from the table. It can be very visible but it can be so subtle that you won’t really “see” it. Without using the body, the shot will simply not have enough power.

Returning to the main discussion, I think online BH tutorials are just as good/ (or bad) as the FH ones. You are naturally better with FH and find the FH tutorials more useful doesn’t mean others are the same. And vice versa. Some may develop good BH from the tutorials, but not their FH. My dad had a deadly BH although his FH sucked, even if he received coaching lessons.

The OP listed pro players with different BH strokes. I can give you a similar list of different FH strokes. They are all different, but there are some common principles.

Yes this is correct 100%. The hip rotation is necessary to generate real power behind the BH. Even in basic countering the hip rotation is present, just on a much smaller scale. Pretty much all the pros use it. Sometimes it's not so easily discerned by just watching the upper body which a lot of amateurs do. You really need to watch the legs, knees and hips to really get it.

Similar to other multi joint systems, any movement can be the result of any other joint and not necessarily the joint that is moving the most. This is what causes a lot of confusion among amateur players, because they watch a big af racket movement and try to replicate the movement with the arm. Yes you can do it, but it's a big world of difference in quality because the pros are initiating and controlling the movement with the lower body and you are doing it with your upper body. Even if the stroke looks superficially similar, there are some secrets within that control the shot quality - and only ppl with really trained eyes would know. But those with trained eyes will also already know how to execute the technique themselves so they're not really in need of these.