Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[dingyibvs]

Yep some of these fast rallies are super exciting and fun to practice. But tbh it's really quite tiring to push my speed limits like that. My practice partner counters and changes directions at crazy speeds so every microsecond savings in stroke efficiency is important.

I'm not sure whether it is that the loop is like the banana flick or the banana flick is like the loop. The modern BH method has the elbow position quite similar between the BH loop and banana flick. If you dont drop your racket for the BH loop then it becomes even more similar.

Like what I written previously, the big advantage is that the stroke works against long, half long and short balls. No more hesitation and this is a huge benefit in BH serve receive.

There is a banana flick variant with high elbow position that creates disturbing sidespin but I'm not in favor of that stroke because you cannot loop long serves with it.

If you watch Chen Meng vs Miwa they were all using fast long serves like no tomorrow to jam the chiquita and it was working like magic. I remember seeing almost no short serves in that final game lol.

Yeah, I'm gonna start practicing that shot like mad now. I played a couple matches at the club today, and I can only apply this shot somewhat against services so far and even that was super useful. People serve half long or long to my BH all the time as I always try to practice my BH loop against it and I lose a lot of points this way. But today, I managed to beat a guy 3-1 when he beat me 3-1 last time.

For the elbow position, since backspin services are usually slower, I think you can lift the elbow up if you want to.

For the long service, what I saw in the men's games like LYJ vs Felix Lebrun was that they would take a jump step back and then try to loop the long service from table height instead of off the bounce. The women don't seem to like that tactic.

 

[blahness]

Yeah, I'm gonna start practicing that shot like mad now. I played a couple matches at the club today, and I can only apply this shot somewhat against services so far and even that was super useful. People serve half long or long to my BH all the time as I always try to practice my BH loop against it and I lose a lot of points this way. But today, I managed to beat a guy 3-1 when he beat me 3-1 last time.

For the elbow position, since backspin services are usually slower, I think you can lift the elbow up if you want to.

For the long service, what I saw in the men's games like LYJ vs Felix Lebrun was that they would take a jump step back and then try to loop the long service from table height instead of off the bounce. The women don't seem to like that tactic.

I mean that the reason why this way of chiquita/loop structure (both strokes being quite similar) is better is due to the defence against fast long serves, because the preparation movement is almost the same which means that you won't get caught by deceptive serve length changes. Against high level servers you are not gonna get much info about the serve length and placement from their serve backswing at all. Also there are ways to make the double bounce backspin serve a lot faster and flatter - Fang Bo's channel had some tutorials on that.

At the highest levels of the men's game everyone plays with racket high without dropping the racket that much especially new gen players like Felix or LYJ (with the exception of older style players like Ma Long - but Ma Long doesnt rely on topspin rally superiority anyway). In fact, barely anyone does the straight arm backswing (which tends to lower racket) now - I watched Jang Woojin and he too has the bent arm backswing (only straighten during the forward swing, not backswing - i talked about this a few times here already). This was his secret to beating WCQ - WCQ's diagonal BH loop is usually so penetrating that it just overwhelms most ppl's FHs. But Jang Woojin had such a small backswing effective FH counterloop that he is able to give the ball back with interest - and he hit almost all of them (some insane form indeed, it is a very hard shot), so Wang Chuqin was on the defence after this BH rip which he was definitely not used to seeing.

 

[NextLevel]

Inspired by the fine playing of the fine ladies, I started practicing the new backspin loop technique while watching them play. Hot damn it worked so well! Just a bigger motion banana flick, that's all I had to do! Add in a copious amount of body rotation and it's got plenty of power. I tried it against some barely half-long serves (hit my BH rubber on the table a few times) that sometimes double bounce, and I just can now judge the ball and either banana flick or loop to boot. This is turning out to be a fantastic night of TT watching and practicing!

This ancient video with ancient arm driven technique (easier with thr celluloid ball) makes a similar point. Though at the highest level and with the new balls as well, the shot quality might made a difference depending on approach.

 

[dingyibvs]

This ancient video with ancient arm driven technique (easier with thr celluloid ball) makes a similar point. Though at the highest level and with the new balls as well, the shot quality might made a difference depending on approach.

Yes, that's a great video, exactly what I'm talking about!

 

[dingyibvs]

I mean that the reason why this way of chiquita/loop structure (both strokes being quite similar) is better is due to the defence against fast long serves, because the preparation movement is almost the same which means that you won't get caught by deceptive serve length changes. Against high level servers you are not gonna get much info about the serve length and placement from their serve backswing at all. Also there are ways to make the double bounce backspin serve a lot faster and flatter - Fang Bo's channel had some tutorials on that.

At the highest levels of the men's game everyone plays with racket high without dropping the racket that much especially new gen players like Felix or LYJ (with the exception of older style players like Ma Long - but Ma Long doesnt rely on topspin rally superiority anyway). In fact, barely anyone does the straight arm backswing (which tends to lower racket) now - I watched Jang Woojin and he too has the bent arm backswing (only straighten during the forward swing, not backswing - i talked about this a few times here already). This was his secret to beating WCQ - WCQ's diagonal BH loop is usually so penetrating that it just overwhelms most ppl's FHs. But Jang Woojin had such a small backswing effective FH counterloop that he is able to give the ball back with interest - and he hit almost all of them (some insane form indeed, it is a very hard shot), so Wang Chuqin was on the defence after this BH rip which he was definitely not used to seeing.

Yes, I think it's a huge advantage, just like the video by @NextLevel shows. I really need to practice it a ton, as I have a lot of trouble adjusting to various services to my BH side. I oftentimes would dip my arm too low below the table and then realize the ball coming is not a backspin. With this technique, I can handle everything from short to long and from backspin to topspin. I tried some practices against no spin and topspin, and it was very similar, with minor adjustments in the swing motion. The main adjustment was really the timing, with the no spin being rather difficult to time.

 

[blahness]

Yes, I think it's a huge advantage, just like the video by @NextLevel shows. I really need to practice it a ton, as I have a lot of trouble adjusting to various services to my BH side. I oftentimes would dip my arm too low below the table and then realize the ball coming is not a backspin. With this technique, I can handle everything from short to long and from backspin to topspin. I tried some practices against no spin and topspin, and it was very similar, with minor adjustments in the swing motion. The main adjustment was really the timing, with the no spin being rather difficult to time.

There are some contact tricks to overcome each spin type easily (there are 6 in total imo), and a lot of it has to do with which part of the ball you hit and the direction of the force. For eg against I always spin it slightly to the left against straight serves or reverse pendulum, and more in the centre against standard pendulum - this is to increase dwell time. If the serve has heavy backspin component you have to hit slightly below equator and direct force strongly upwards, if the serve has heavy topspin component you have to hit above equator and go more towards the right and direct force slightly downwards to manage the momentum.

But that said, if you read the serve spin wrong it is still game over. This is the hardest part of serve receive imo, when you have no idea if it's short/long, BH/FH/middle, backspin/no spin/topspin/sidetop/sideback. It's a major pain in the ass when your opponent keeps changing it up and you can't keep up. This is why pips players have a major advantage in serve receive which is so difficult at the amateur levels. Unfortunately for us inverted players we have to really improve these skills otherwise we can't even reach the rally stage.

 

[dingyibvs]

I also tried out my provincial W968 (PW968) with the NH3 on one side. The handle immediately feels better in my hand. It's beefier than the NW968. They have the same dimensions, but the NW968 is more oval while the PW968 is more rectangular. I don't know if it's due to the weight distribution or the handle, but I immediately made better contact with the ball. That really surprised me. I often contact the ball a little off the sweet spot on the FH side with the NW968, but with the PW968 every contact felt solid. They weigh pretty similar, 198 vs 196, so that can't be the issue. I'm gonna put a grip tape on the NW968 and see if a thicker grip is the cause.

The Nittaku H3 is also rather surprising. It's pretty tacky, unlike the very old sheet I have, and the ball feel is that it's much harder than the D09C. It's very grippy with a brushing stroke, causing the ball to go a bit high, and very un-bouncy, so that softer shots feel quite slow. When hit hard however it just rockets, kind of like the D05 except perhaps even more. Feels very crispy on harder shots, but I need to see if it allows for a good arc with BH drives like the D09C. I'm most surprised with it's speed, as I thought it'd be more like the regular H3, but it goes so fast when hit hard and the feeling is a lot more clear. My H3 was very muted and slow unboosted, and after boosting with 2 layers of Seamoon it felt a lot like a spinnier D09c, this feels nothing like it.

 

[dingyibvs]

There are some contact tricks to overcome each spin type easily (there are 6 in total imo), and a lot of it has to do with which part of the ball you hit and the direction of the force. For eg against I always spin it slightly to the left against straight serves or reverse pendulum, and more in the centre against standard pendulum - this is to increase dwell time. If the serve has heavy backspin component you have to hit slightly below equator and direct force strongly upwards, if the serve has heavy topspin component you have to hit above equator and go more towards the right and direct force slightly downwards to manage the momentum.

Yes, that's exactly what I found as well during my practice yesterday. For the no spin serve I also found it better to hit a bit to the left of the ball. Without spin the rubber doesn't seem to bite the ball very well when hit head on and dwell time feels increased when I hit it a bit to the side.

 

[Der_Echte]

I don't know if it's due to the weight distribution or the handle, but I immediately made better contact with the ball. That really surprised me.

One would be surprised at how the bat performs with blade handles that suit the hand better.
That is why I have local blade maker Chase Bladecraft make handle pieces for me that are thicker than OEM handles.

 

[dingyibvs]

One would be surprised at how the bat performs with blade handles that suit the hand better.
That is why I have local blade maker Chase Bladecraft make handle pieces for me that are thicker than OEM handles.

I try to relax during the backswing and then do the activation sequence, so my theory is that the thinner handle allows the blade to rotate axially in my hand when I go from relaxed to tightened right before contact and thus leading to inconsistent contact.

Do you attach the handle pieces yourself or do you have the blade maker do it? I'm kinda stuck to using just the grip tape method, as I wouldn't want to mess up the engraved letters W968 on it

 

[NextLevel]

Yes, that's exactly what I found as well during my practice yesterday. For the no spin serve I also found it better to hit a bit to the left of the ball. Without spin the rubber doesn't seem to bite the ball very well when hit head on and dwell time feels increased when I hit it a bit to the side.

For no spin, my approach is to treat it like underspin when I start the stroke, but make the stroke plane like topspin with a Calderano/Lin Gaoyuan straight arm type finish if i want to backhand loop drive the ball. Usually, I lift no-spin off the table but when I use the underspin contact but finish more to the side rather than up and around the ball, I don't get the same lift and the ball stays much safer with quality. On the forehand, I do something similar, I don't finish as high as I would with underspin, I finish more around chest height even though I open the paddle.

I usually forget this stroke since it was something I figured out my practice years ago when i was messing around and never really trained it but whenever I remember it, the short pips players tend to get into trouble because I stop missing thirdball long off my backspin serves when they push.

 

[Der_Echte]

Do you attach the handle pieces yourself or do you have the blade maker do it?

Chase really doesn't like to attach them, maybe customers get picky... I have no problem attaching them and sanding them.

 

[dingyibvs]

For no spin, my approach is to treat it like underspin when I start the stroke, but make the stroke plane like topspin with a Calderano type finish if i want to backhand loop drive the ball. Usually, I lift no-spin off the table but when I use the underspin contact but finish more to the side rather than up and around the ball, I don't get the same lift and the ball stays much safer with quality. On the forehand, I do something similar, I don't finish as high as I would with underspin, I finish more around chest height even though I open the paddle.

I usually forget this stroke since it was something I figured out my practice years ago when i was messing around and never really trained it but whenever I remember it, the short pips players tend to get into trouble because I stop missing thirdball long off my backspin serves when they push.

That's interesting, I'm gonna give that a try and see how that feels!

 

[Der_Echte]

'm kinda stuck to using just the grip tape method, as I wouldn't want to mess up the engraved letters W968 on it

You could always start with 1mm shims on each side... remove handle pieces and apply a 1mm thick piece of wood to each, sand, install, sand and go to war with your nice 896 badge still showing.

 

[dingyibvs]

You could always start with 1mm shims on each side... remove handle pieces and apply a 1mm thick piece of wood to each, sand, install, sand and go to war with your nice 896 badge still showing.

Interesting, do you know how much a 1mm shim would weigh, roughly? I might try it out on a regular HL5 first. One possible issue is that it's not so much that the P968's handle is thicker, per se, it's that it has a different shape. The N968's handle is more oval, while the P968's handle is more rectangular, If you were simply to measure their length, width, and thickness, they're probably the same. so I'm not 100% sure yet if simply making it thicker would do the trick.

 

[Der_Echte]

Hi @dingyibvs ,

You would have to glue the 1mm wood piece on a removed handle piece, shave it down and weigh it to know... but I doubt it would add more than a few grams and I would strongly say it would feel LIGHTER after you do it, when you re-assemble it all and start hitting.

You would not believe how better it would feel.

 

[Emin]

Very good backhand video.

 

[dingyibvs]

Had a very long and very productive training session with my training partner. We're both making pretty quick progress now. My BH attacks are starting to become pretty deadly, and I'm fully utilizing the new opening loop technique. We started off with some FH loop practices, then BH loops, then BH opening loops against all sorts of pushes. It was actually a really good push practice as well. We'd finish the point by having him attack, primarily using his BH toward my BH, and I'd try to win the point by defense only. I feel soooooo much more comfortable with defense now! Near the end of his BH opening loop drills, I started countering his loops, and even that went surprisingly well! When it was my turn to make BH opening loops, I hardly missed any against all sorts of pushes, and punished high and floaty pushes with thundering drives.

We felt comfortable enough with our basic shots that we practiced some looping long and half long services at the end. He had particular trouble with no spin serves, so I tried out the new technique @NextLevel and I were talking about , which worked super well, and I taught him that as well. I think a bit more BH practice against all sorts of topspins and blocks and I'm ready to take my game to a new level!

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Saw this in my YT feed. Is it true? Will ML play in Paris 2024?

Anyone can verify this?

 

[dingyibvs]

View attachment 28564
Saw this in my YT feed. Is it true? Will ML play in Paris 2024?

Anyone can verify this?

Yeah he said something like that after defeating France. It wasn't as clear in Chinese, but I'm fairly sure that's what he meant. The lineup for Paris hasn't been revealed yet, but pretty sure he'll be playing in the teams competition. It'll most likely be FZD/WCQ in singles, with ML added for teams.