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Felix Lebrun lost 14 direct points on serve when faced Wang Chuqin
- Thread starter Hoàng Chinh Trump
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Create a new rule that is easy for the umpire to call out:
like, during the serve, your chest/shoulders cannot be more than 90 degrees rotated from just facing the table
Regardless of the actual legality of those serves, the ITTF Rulebook says that the ref is able to fault any serve that even is a little suspicious.
It is the player’s responsibility to make their serve as least suspicious as possible.
It is the referee’s responsibility to fault any serve that is even a little suspicious.
Unfortunately, referees historically have been too lenient. Players make their serve as most suspicious as possible nowadays.
I hope things turn around. I hate these barely-legal serves.
like, during the serve, your chest/shoulders cannot be more than 90 degrees rotated from just facing the table
Regardless of the actual legality of those serves, the ITTF Rulebook says that the ref is able to fault any serve that even is a little suspicious.
It is the player’s responsibility to make their serve as least suspicious as possible.
It is the referee’s responsibility to fault any serve that is even a little suspicious.
Unfortunately, referees historically have been too lenient. Players make their serve as most suspicious as possible nowadays.
I hope things turn around. I hate these barely-legal serves.
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How many of those serves were actually illegal? Impossible to say for sure, but I'd guess 3 at most. How many did Felix challenge? How many direct points did Felix win on his serve? Right now it's part of the game. If you don't like it, just push the umpires to be stricter. Eventually at big tournaments it shouldn't be too hard to make real time TTR available for every serve.
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one of my players have the same problem
he couldn't keep his 100% win rate in 2. Bundesliga Germany because one matches (he loss 2-3), he couldn't read the serve and loss between 3 to 4 points directly from service return per game.
all 5 games were deuces, so just 1 less illegal serve, maybe it would be a win.
I have no solution
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what spin did he put in the first few serves? Is it a heavy side backspin so even with trying to lift it keeps going into the net?
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Felix does the same thing maybe just not as effectively in this match.
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Most spins on the video were side/under. With the follow-up motion after the rubber contacted the ball, it's difficult to tell the real spin in a split second. The post-contact deceptive motion makes side/under look like side/upper. It is the highly skilled act developed by players with great serves. WCQ's serve is probably one of the best among active pros.
Legal serve or not, the serve itself is very hard to read even in a clear view. So give the man a little credit for developing such effective serves.
WCQ's deadly third ball attack is another reason his opponents find it hard to receive his serves. You have to make quick decision and be aggressive either using flip or fast push which tend to be high risk shots.
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From what I can see, at least 10 serves are illegal. His pelvis/hips are 80% to the side of the table. This causes him to hit the ball above the table, beyond the baseline. After those serves, the third fatal ball inevitably follows because he keeps making the playing field smaller with his serve.
Of course, he's not the only one.
Prohibiting serves from the side would already be a step in the right direction.
Of course, he's not the only one.
Prohibiting serves from the side would already be a step in the right direction.
No, the ball is always behind you at contact when serving pendulum, so if you're serving near the baseline which he is, then you're gonna have to stand in front of the baseline. As such, standing in front the baseline is not evidence that the service is over the table.
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If your body is already almost completely past the baseline because you are standing next to the table, you must either throw the ball backwards with your throwing hand (to hit the ball in front of the baseline as you should) or hit the ball past the baseline. And it is precisely the latter that happens with Wang in 80% of his serves. In fact, when he is behind, he positions himself even further to the side of the table so that he can play his third ball faster.
Why would you need to throw the ball backwards? Your body is in front of the baseline, your hand is not.
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His body is definitely not in front of the baseline but beyond the baseline and next to the table.
says
Fair Play First
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I think some of it is the fact that Felix is trying to make too good of a receive. Usually, if a player's servers are giving you trouble, people try to reduce the quality a bit, even at the highest level. Maybe Felix doesn't believe in that. He actually tried to go harder at the short serves in the later part of the match.
I would actually be more interested in learning from WCQ. Anyone has a link for a video where he practices serves? Its very hard to find compared to some other players.
I would actually be more interested in learning from WCQ. Anyone has a link for a video where he practices serves? Its very hard to find compared to some other players.
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wasn't there a recent match where TTR was in full play and WCQ didn't win much points directly from serves.
he also served a lot more cleanly.
IMO, WCQ is a damn good player that can win points during rallies.
but he does make use of hidden serves to win a lot of easy points, so this is why for me, he will never be goat material and looking at those comparisons to Ma Long etc, he has neither the trait to character to fill that big shoes - however, he is a lone warrior, and the last hope for China. He had to use all the ugly to win. Or else.....
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Check the match against Darko. That moron even challenged wcq serve right away and lost the challenge.
Imo the rules have to change completely or should stay the way it is and it should be part of the game. Trying to force the rules like this without TTR leads to ridiculous decisions many times.
Btw if we call out wcq as we do many times in the past, do you guys check the serves of the likes of felix, darko, alexis and many more as well? Because those really lay low above the ball.
Fun fact, i even got a slow mo from darko where he got so low over the ball that not his head hid the ball but his entire body. It didnt bother wcq...
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imo, it should be the umpires job to enforce the rule
and players can use technology for close calls.
hidden serves been around for a long time.
so I agree with you, either fix it, or do something about it.
TTR is only few matches in a whole tournament too, so TTR is still really far from the solutions.
Umpires need to have more resources, maybe even more umpires involved, since we talking Pro sport here, not some amateur match
Honestly, I do think that the service from WCQ has been a lot better compared to 1 year ago.
There are a few pointers that I think is way more important about his serve than the actual illegal part.
I know we all have played that one player that tosses the ball into the racket while his belly hides any of the racket motion. I've never been a fan of WCQ, but it makes me think:
- He has one of the fastes side under / underspin which he frequently uses in tight situations. Maybe hidden maybe not, but its really hard to read a fast underspin server with fake motion. We normally adjust to the spin during contact and flight, but in this case he reduces all of the adjustment time to the minimum with his serve. Gives the impression that you didn't see shit.
- Honestly I don't agree on the baseline thing that everyone says. It's another thing when you are hitting the serve above the table anywhere closer to the net than barely over the baseline. You are limiting your range of motion and if the force applied wrongly it might bounce high or long or you smash your racket. Benefits of the opponent having slower time to react does not really outweight the risk. And if you look closely he barely hits it outside of the baseline, but his motion goes above the table, which make it seem he is hitting it over the baseline. Everyone serving forehand normally go to the side, down or up, rarely see anyone go in, since it limits your way of returning from your serve.
- lastly i do think the angle of the video review sometimes was really weird in the vegas smash. The challenge darko did was legit, but the camera angle was somehow on the far right side, so his head barely blocked it. And according to the footage it was legit. However, from where darko was standing I would say he didnt see shit.
There are a few pointers that I think is way more important about his serve than the actual illegal part.
I know we all have played that one player that tosses the ball into the racket while his belly hides any of the racket motion. I've never been a fan of WCQ, but it makes me think:
- He has one of the fastes side under / underspin which he frequently uses in tight situations. Maybe hidden maybe not, but its really hard to read a fast underspin server with fake motion. We normally adjust to the spin during contact and flight, but in this case he reduces all of the adjustment time to the minimum with his serve. Gives the impression that you didn't see shit.
- Honestly I don't agree on the baseline thing that everyone says. It's another thing when you are hitting the serve above the table anywhere closer to the net than barely over the baseline. You are limiting your range of motion and if the force applied wrongly it might bounce high or long or you smash your racket. Benefits of the opponent having slower time to react does not really outweight the risk. And if you look closely he barely hits it outside of the baseline, but his motion goes above the table, which make it seem he is hitting it over the baseline. Everyone serving forehand normally go to the side, down or up, rarely see anyone go in, since it limits your way of returning from your serve.
- lastly i do think the angle of the video review sometimes was really weird in the vegas smash. The challenge darko did was legit, but the camera angle was somehow on the far right side, so his head barely blocked it. And according to the footage it was legit. However, from where darko was standing I would say he didnt see shit.
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