Why do people say LP's should be banned?

[d3nium]

If you don't mind me asking.. Around what kind of level do you play?

Not very high, just local league.

I have nothing against LPs by the way, but in our league there's loads of old guys playing with LPs & Anti, every other match usually features at least one player with them.

On the rare occasion I go for a knock around, I just can't be bothered playing against them haha.

 

[Ghostzen]

Not very high, just local league.

I have nothing against LPs by the way, but in our league there's loads of old guys playing with LPs & Anti, every other match usually features at least one player with them.

On the rare occasion I go for a knock around, I just can't be bothered playing against them haha.

Understandabe 👍 everyone want's to improve. Good knocks, drilling and training partners can be tricky at that standard let alone putting in the curve ball of different rubbers as well. Fair play.

 

[d3nium]

Understandabe 👍 everyone what's to improve. Good knocks, drilling and training partners can be tricky at that standard let alone putting in the curve ball of different rubbers as well. Fair play.

Yeah, I usually do ok against guys with LPs in my league, especially the guys who just block and push with them, it's the ones who know how to hit and flick with them that are really difficult for me to deal with.

 

[Metaxa]

I waited to read this topic (again about studs) for a while. Even though we used to have a lot of problems against material players (SP, LP and Anti) (during my training time, years ago), we have learnt to play against them over the years. Sometimes successfully sometimes not. This led me to the observation that everything is playable, as long as you practice enough and keep your head up.
Still, I maintain that LP should be banned. It has nothing to do with table tennis rather the game you play in a garage among friends, ping pong that is. LPs defy all logic of table tennis sport and physics. It is not logical that players who are serious about learning table tennis and spend hours behind the table that they lose to players who play with equipment. This means that playing with materials does offer advantages.
Agreed, those players too had to learn to play with this kind of material but then you have to ask the question why did they turn to this kind of material? (Technical deficiencies? Old age? Physical limitations?) I never believe a kid enters a club with a wood/racket with studs on it under his arm.
At all levels, you see technically better players having difficulties or even losing to material players. Not very logical!
In no other sport do you see so many situations to score points in a non-regulatory manner. And that ranges from material choice to illegal services.

My opinion/finding, no one has to agree with it of course.

 

[longrange]

Table tennis historically was about arms race. It started with pips, then inverted and sponges, speed gluing, new sponge technologies, carbon blades—you name it. Eventually we got this tremendous spin levels that we have now. If some smart**s came up with a ruling that coverings must be no sponge, pips out back in the day we wouldn't have the game we enjoy today.

I personally think there should be legal boosting and frictionless antis. Those who don't like spin and its variations harboured in hardbat/ping-pong/techpong. More power to them and good luck. Is hardbat more entertaining for general viewership?

I think this pursuing "normal people" is an utterly flawed argument. Ordinary European/American people think it's a game of chinese robots and it's not very interesting to watch, which of them is going to win this time. Or maybe there's Forrest Gump or something. TT will never attract insane money of football and/or uninitiated spectators. And I think it's just great.

There's very little point watching high level TT if you haven't been exposed to a good level of spin and if you have been, then watching Luka destroying Gauzy or Uda or Filus winning against LYJ is very entertaining.

Disclaimer: I myself can play against pips, but it's frustrating and I lose more often than not (and I still like it).

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I have always advocated for LP players. When ITTF banned frictionless, literally every nation copy/paste the ittf laws into theit national assn laws... and forced out a large amount of players.

I gathered a lot of people who are complaining today, probably haven't been around back then.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

What about playing left-handed players, penholders (and don't get me started on left-handed penholders ) or younger/more athletic players or literally better players for that matter? Not everyone has the same opportunity to practice against these and improve either and yet there are no regularly appearing threads on TT forums calling to ban these players.

Im a penholder, and I hate playing against left-handed penholders that RPB.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Exactly what I'm trying to get at. People say using pips is unfair but they don't even bother to do the bare minimum of reading a simple paper on how they work and how to beat them.

cricket should ban spinners
baseball should ban curve balls
only straight up is allowed it seems

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I find playing long pips pretty easy unless the player completely outclasses me. However I would still ban them from play. Table tennis is already viewed as a sideshow by the general public and seeing long pips in action is just going to turn off most spectators. It makes table tennis look less like a sport and more like a joke. I think we also lose a lot of potential players who are having fun playing against inverted then run into an "old man junker" and get crushed then quit wondering why they are wasting their time with such a "sport." At least locally I see a lot more people playing casually. A great way to get them to quit immediately is to confuse and frustrate them with long pips or some other weird surface.

you see, in many countries, what you said isn't the case.

so is it the pips problem, or is it the peoples problem?

Now, say you get pips banned,
will that now solve your problem of "sideshow" and TT becomes no longer a joke?

I think there could easily be over a dozen or two dozens issues more critical than pips.
and have you think about it, where TT is a sport, pips is never a taboo.
But where TT isn't popular, pips are a problem.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Plus, playing left-handed is (generally) not a choice, and there's no sensible option to ban left handers (not that I want to see pips players banned either, but you could ban pips rubbers in practical terms, if you see what I mean).

well, in my side of the world, there are many fake left handers.
they are right handers, but learnt to play table tennis left handed.
so, it is a choice

But in my experience, in the real world, most of the people who struggle with pips are juniors (or players without a support network) and it's a battle for the coaches and clubs to overcome. And they do overcome, with positive support and the right kind of training / encouragement.

Suggest coaches get a couple of pips rackets.
That was the first thing I did when I became a coach in 2012.
SP attacking
SP Defending
MP
LP chop
LP block

and heck, I'm a penholder and just holding shakehand was already a bit awkward.

 

[NextLevel]

LPs shouldn't be banned, but there's no real enjoyment in playing against them, and I would never invite a LP player to a practice session.

It's funny because my stroke quality tends to improve significantly when I get practice against lp blocks and choppers on a regular basis. My first two coaches used to give me extensive practice against pips as part of drills to help me raise and control my spin levels ans that was how I developed extremely spinny action with ease, first on backhand and later on forehand.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

It's funny because my stroke quality tends to improve significantly when I get practice against lp blocks and choppers on a regular basis. My first two coaches used to give me extensive practice against pips as part of drills to help me raise and control my spin levels ans that was how I developed extremely spinny action with ease, first on backhand and later on forehand.

today, I don't care if I win or loose, but I like to hit my strokes
and when I do play against LP players (blockers)
guess what I am doing

If the ball comes back after my first attack (which will be very heavy underspin)
I am still going for it.

Yes, I might net a few after a few top spins in a row, but many of those coming back would go off way more than me netting a few and that just feels so much better than an inverted blocking me.
I guess, I just like the challenge.

I do struggle against choppers nowadays though.
My legs are no longer mine apparently

But to know I can still go for them when I choose to, does just make me think I'm still young and thin.

 

[TensorBackhand]

If you don't mind me asking.. Around what kind of level do you play?

Isn't it good to learn to combat these styles?

Having played with LP and against LP, I agree with his feeling.

When I won with LP, its nothing to feel proud about because I simply used the un-equal equipment to disrupt his regular pattern.

When I won against LP, it was a boring and ugly game and not fun at all.

 

[Ghostzen]

Having played with LP and against LP, I agree with his feeling.

When I won with LP, its nothing to feel proud about because I simply used the un-equal equipment to disrupt his regular pattern.

When I won against LP, it was a boring and ugly game and not fun at all.

Definitely if it's a hard, ugly game of not knowing the balls spin and not being able to get past the variations caused its no fun. Same with defence. It can be like banging your head against a wall repeatedly. Once there's an executed plan things definitely become easier.

 

[NextLevel]

today, I don't care if I win or loose, but I like to hit my strokes
and when I do play against LP players (blockers)
guess what I am doing

If the ball comes back after my first attack (which will be very heavy underspin)
I am still going for it.

Yes, I might net a few after a few top spins in a row, but many of those coming back would go off way more than me netting a few and that just feels so much better than an inverted blocking me.
I guess, I just like the challenge.

I do struggle against choppers nowadays though.
My legs are no longer mine apparently

But to know I can still go for them when I choose to, does just make me think I'm still young and thin.

Playing them is not fun, but training with them is.

Training with a disciplined LP or even SP player, especially the close to the table (chop) blockers Dr Neubauer style, is actually a lot of fun and for me one of the best ways for me to develop very spinny strokes that adapt to different balls, because the spin reading is built into the training process. Sometimes you roll a nothing ball into the pips, you get a block back, you need to remember the ball is light so you can't lift it and you need to either go lighter or go more forward, then when that block comes back, you need to see whether they chopped or blocked it and if they chopped it, you need to adjust your stroke plane/racket angle, and then it goes on for as long as you and the blocker are consistent. You can even allow them to hit the ball when you push in order to get practice against lp hit balls and things like that.

None of the spin in my game came from playing inverted players per se. It was from trying to figure out how much power and spin I could put on a ball against an LP player to make it harder for them to chop the ball short (I never was able to get to that point against the really good chop blockers if they used frictionless pips, but it was fun regardless). If I didn't have to deal with pips players, my spin levels would probably be extremely ordinary. When many pips players play me, they often ask where I learned to hit the no-spin/backs-spin ball like that.

It's a challenge that if you find the right practice partner (even those that just use the LP to give you dead ball are useful) and you repeatedly loop and read the ball, you learn a lot. Then the inverted players you used to play start blocking your opening loops long and you are all puzzled about what changed...

 

[JJ Ng]

TB,

Tony just politely told you that you got a little head stuck up ur azz action going on.

Backup ur opinion with some facts. Is friction LP harder to play vs? No, I eat up friction LP players above my level. is SP harder to play vs? only if opponent is way better player. Is it difficult to play vs a 2x inverted player who cannot spell SPIN and flat hits everything? Only until you can attack first or figure out how to hit no spin.

Why do so many 2300-2400 hotshot power loopers struggle to win vs 2100 rate Rich Dewitt? Rich knows how to slow ball down, kill spin, and place the ball well... those are legit TT skills and Rich uses 2x inverted... my BH rubber is always more wore out than his rubbers. Until a player can figure out how to discern impact, they gunna struggle... it is a fundamental skill in TT.

We love you for your dedication to TT... you would not be posting so enthusiastically for so long here if you did not have true love for tt. We respect that and people who do not respect that are worse than head in azz syndrome.

I like Tony's point about diversity of play styles. When you had a ball that LP could better manipulate spin (Celluloid 38 and 40) there were so many different play styles going on. That was GREAT for our sport.

Now with 40+ ABS that is EASY to hit through spin, (and make your own) it nudges even amateur players to play advanced offensive strokes (flip, counter vs topspin) like a boss at a relatively low level.

I see professionally trained and some self trained players doing a rally that goes like serve under, flip, counter the flip, counter the counter, counter that counter even more fast and win point... I see 1000-1200 rated players playing this in California now.

This was UNHEARD of 5 yrs ago. Now it is commonplace. The larger new gen ABS ball with a truer bounce allows for this kind of play.

I have always advocated for LP players. When ITTF banned frictionless, literally every nation copy/paste the ittf laws into theit national assn laws... and forced out a large amount of players. In USA, we need every damn body we can muster. LA area, bay area, Dallas, NYC, Florida always gunna have a base, but the rest of the nation really struggles to make any TT action. We need everyone.

I truly heartedly agree with everything you have said.

I grew up playing Jpen with 38mm celluloid ball. I also use Friendship 729 so I could spin the hell out of the ball.

I came back to the sport again 6-7 years ago and now everyone is flipping and counter looping. I don't know that's good or bad.

Back then, I could win more service points outright. Now with the plastic ball, it is much harder to generate spin.

I still remember that with celluloid balls, the spin from the initial serve, because of how spinny the ball was, would affect the next 4-5 strokes. Now with plastic ball, even if I spin the heck out of the serve, it only affects the next 2 strokes at most!

Therefore, with the advent of the plastic ball, it did not just affect long pip players, it also affected players who were trained to spin the ball (instead of smashing the ball) as some of the spins have been taken out of the game.

I do see lower level players "looping" and counter-"looping" like there is no tomorrow. But their reading of the spin is not very accurate because, well, their opponents cannot put too much spin on the ball at that level anyway. I don't know if it is good or bad for the sport, switching to plastic ball.

 

[Lowday20298]

cricket should ban spinners
baseball should ban curve balls
only straight up is allowed it seems

😂

 

[JJ Ng]

As a matter of fact, series of pushes are the surest way to lose to LP players. That sentence in bold is probably the most concentrated collection of misconceptions about playing against LPs.

Like I wrote above, some people just don't want to learn how LPs work and how to play against them.

Agree. With long pips, you maybe push once, then you full out attack and put them on the heels. I use hurricane on the forehand side so my forehand loop is very very spinny. Most long pips will block the ball out (because the ball would come off their racket on the long pips side as either back spin or no spin, both of which can easily float out the end of the table). Of course, in the rare chance that the long pips blocks the heavy topspin back, then I would push one ball, then start attacking again.

Pushing back and forth with a long pip players is the sure way to lose a lot of points.

 

[JJ Ng]

LPs shouldn't be banned, but there's no real enjoyment in playing against them, and I would never invite a LP player to a practice session.

I enjoy practicing with long pips. There are a few drills I would practice with another long pip player:

1) push and then flip lightly, then push and then flip lightly.

2) practicing slow, high arcing top spins and pin them down on the long pips side. I would avoid pushing any ball in this drill. The whole point is to brush the ball and keep it on the table and not vary the location at all because, well, most long pips players don't know how to move. Trying to move them around on the table defeats the purpose of "practicing" with them.

3) practice long fast no spin serve and then just loop kill the next ball with forehand (so I force myself to move). Obviously this happens in game situation. I don't might losing a couple games to make myself a better player in the future. I don't get to use long fast no spin serve with inverted players a lot so when I see a long-pip player, I like to practice that type of serve.

4) practice heavy back spin serves and either loop drive the return or block aggressive the return. A high level long pips player know how to attack your heavy back spin serve so I get to practice aggressive blocks.

There are a lot of your game you can practice on by practicing with long pip players! I like the slow looping practice the most. It is almost like multi-ball training without having to hire a coach! When you loop with an inverted players, the balls come back fast with spin. But when you loop slowly with a long pip player, every ball comes back slow and somewhat "dead" which is great for me to practice how to brush "up" and "with light contact" with the ball.

 

[JJ Ng]

It's funny because my stroke quality tends to improve significantly when I get practice against lp blocks and choppers on a regular basis. My first two coaches used to give me extensive practice against pips as part of drills to help me raise and control my spin levels ans that was how I developed extremely spinny action with ease, first on backhand and later on forehand.

Agree.

Here is what I would do. I play 5 days a week. Two days a week I would seek out a hardbat and/or long pip player to play with. My quality of loop and the way I brush the ball are much better after such practices/playing matches.

Then the other 3 days a week, I avoid them because playing with them too much mess up my timing! Haha...

When I play with a hardbat/long pip player I have to lunge forward a bit more (make me move and work on my foot work) and brush every ball up. It is a good practice for foot work and touch. However, the timing is totally different than playing against inverted players so the other 3 days a week I avoid them!