Need help fixing forehand technique

izra · Apr 28, 2016

your swing trajectory starts too low. to compensate for this you have to close the bat more and as a result you hit the ball with the edge far too often.

if you look at the pro videos others have posted they also start low... but that is only the first phase of the backswing. before their bat starts moving forward they lift it up to adjust to the ball height and in all of those videos their bats are above table height during the whole time that they are moving forward.

in your video we can see your bat is under the table height while going forward (you get it higher when the balls get higher though, but not quite enough). try keeping it above table height and the bat angle will soon adjust and you will hit far fewer balls with your edge.

anchorschmidt · Apr 28, 2016

izra said:
your swing trajectory starts too low. to compensate for this you have to close the bat more and as a result you hit the ball with the edge far too often.

if you look at the pro videos others have posted they also start low... but that is only the first phase of the backswing. before their bat starts moving forward they lift it up to adjust to the ball height and in all of those videos their bats are above table height during the whole time that they are moving forward.

in your video we can see your bat is under the table height while going forward (you get it higher when the balls get higher though, but not quite enough). try keeping it above table height and the bat angle will soon adjust and you will hit far fewer balls with your edge.

This is a great tip, thanks. I will try it out.

izra · Apr 28, 2016

the way to get around this without making the correction that i just advised is what nextlevel said, cock your wrist and go around the ball more. it is a great last moment correction when facing balls that come at you higher or with more spin than you anticipated but i'm of the opinion that you will be able to improve more if you train adjusting your stroke trajectory to the height of the ball.

kukamonga · Apr 28, 2016

anchorschmidt said:
Hi, thanks for the comments guys.

@Paul Drinkhall. Between December and February, I really tried to use shorter strokes with more explosive power. I tried to play a forehand in a style similar to that of Timo Boll and Zhang Jike. While the balls that actually landed on the table had deadly spin, my footwork, anticipation, ball-sense etc. are just not good enough for timing such a short stroke. Not to mention, it was harder on the body. The only thing that came out of it was that I just didn't trust my forehand at all.

Currently, I'm trying to take a leaf out of Waldner's, Samsonov's, Ma Long's book and making the stroke a bit longer with more time for accelerating into the ball. This is much easier for timing the ball.

I have two trainers actually but I don't really have one-on-one training. Around once or twice a month, a high-level player (ca. TTR 1750) in my club will do a short session with me at my University and give me feedback. His feedback is always worth listening to and he is the guy who actually introduced me to table tennis. We have table tennis once a week in my University where mostly complete beginners play. He normally supervises the hall but I asked if I could play with him. My first attempted block landed 3 meters behind the table and I perhaps got a total of 3 points in 3 sets . I asked him if he could teach me the strokes and that's how I started and I then started playing in his club.

I just practice what he tells me without a ball or keep his advice in mind. That helps me gain much more than if I just showed up to his training. My backhand is 100% the way he taught me but my forehand differs in a few ways as my FH grip is different. His grip change is quite big but mine is not as big between forehand and backhand as it feels more comfortable that way. I have a backhand grip and a very slight forehand grip and switch between them.

On Thursday, we have group training (around 6-12 people) by a player in the women's 3. Bundesliga. Her training is more about doing certain regular and sometimes irregular exercises. Though she gives us pointers on technique, we learn more about how to go from one stroke to the other. This training is quite challenging for me as most of the other players already have a honed technique but they are all very understanding if I make more errors than they do

kukamonga is my name, they even made a thread about it lol

anchorschmidt · Apr 28, 2016

kukamonga said:
kukamonga is my name, they even made a thread about it lol

Haha, yes I know, I saw that.

I just meant that as a reference for Drinkhall's technique.

kukamonga · Apr 28, 2016

anchorschmidt said:
Haha, yes I know, I saw that. I just meant that as a reference for Drinkhall's technique.

I mean everything is cool, but if you want to see the real thing, the perfect technique sculpted by thousands of years of practice, brought by a meteorite from the times of dinosaurs, then I'm gonna have to refer you to this guy.
But never tell anyone I showed you this video, it's like when people share a video of the touch of death (kung fu).

NextLevel · Apr 28, 2016

izra said:
the way to get around this without making the correction that i just advised is what nextlevel said, cock your wrist and go around the ball more. it is a great last moment correction when facing balls that come at you higher or with more spin than you anticipated but i'm of the opinion that you will be able to improve more if you train adjusting your stroke trajectory to the height of the ball.

I think if one naturally practices and is trying to change and improve the quality of his ball (too many people just continue.to focus on keeping the ball on the table rather than.experimenting with technical improvements for timing, spun variation, bat speed and stroke consistency), one will fix the stroke trajectory and contact point naturally (or get told by a practice partner to fix it). My focus tends to be on the swing itself in terms of racket head speed and ability to hit the ball consistently towards the table and whether there are any major issues that would prevent one from improving with training and practice.

izra · Apr 28, 2016

NextLevel said:
I think if one naturally practices and is trying to change and improve the quality of his ball (too many people just continue.to focus on keeping the ball on the table rather than.experimenting with technical improvements for timing, spun variation, bat speed and stroke consistency), one will fix the stroke trajectory and contact point naturally (or get told by a practice partner to fix it). My focus tends to be on the swing itself in terms of racket head speed and ability to hit the ball consistently towards the table and whether there are any major issues that would prevent one from improving with training and practice.

i understand. but experimenting alone is the long(est) way, good tips might save him months or even years of time. also there is a huge difference between being able to make the shot and understanding how and why to do it. i find a combination of both is best for improvement but also for maintaining a certain level with less practice.

for example, if he were to groove in his stroke with huge amounts of practice he would unconsciously start tracking the height of the ball with his stroke. now if he stopped practicing and tried to come back later he would have the same problem all over again and it would take a load of practice again just to stop hitting so many edges.

NextLevel · Apr 28, 2016

izra said:
i understand. but experimenting alone is the long(est) way, good tips might save him months or even years of time. also there is a huge difference between being able to make the shot and understanding how and why to do it. i find a combination of both is best for improvement but also for maintaining a certain level with less practice.

for example, if he were to groove in his stroke with huge amounts of practice he would unconsciously start tracking the height of the ball with his stroke. now if he stopped practicing and tried to come back later he would have the same problem all over again and it would take a load of practice again just to stop hitting so many edges.

Sure, but the problem is that he is grooving his stroke against one type of ball and with a focus on one type of contact, not that his stroke is flawed. If he is trying to change the ball arc and speed etc, the changes will happen, tips or no tips.

The tips are never substitutes for the practice. And the tips often get interpreted very wrongly and badly by someone who does not understand the demands the sport places on you to read the ball correctly, prepare your stroke based on your read and execute it successfully. They think tips can solve the problem of practice sometimes. I know you know better but some learners do not.

For example, let's say I want to play high arcing topspin on a heavy topspin ball. Anchorschmidt has a perfect stroke for this. If I want to play drive topspin on a heavy topspin ball, your advice is more pertinent and in general safer. High arcing topspin on topspin ball is risky close to table and dangerous but possible. Some people will try it, miss a couple of times, then give up.

My approach is different. I believe that the brain learns from mistakes and that real learning takes place at the level of practice, not tips. So I will take my basic swing and go at a few balls. The tips may help me adjust my stroke faster, but so will my experience with practicing against various balls once I have done this for a while. It will not be a stroke I practice all the time, but the attempt will teach me about spin and my stroke.

The thing is that one needs a technically sound and consistent stroke to take this approach. Anchor already has one. But at some point, to get better, especially as a self conscious learner, which most adults are and which most kids are not, you need to be willing to experiment.

izra · Apr 28, 2016

if he complains about hitting the ball with the edge of his bat too often i wouldn't call his stroke technically sound and consistent. just because it looks like that in warm up doesn't mean it is. from the first couple of strokes in his video i already assumed he hits too many balls with the edge of his bat. i've seen it happen more than once, people practicing their topspin furiously for months only to hit those edges whenever they are a little bit late or out of position (which in a match you most of the time are). once they start paying more attention to the height of the starting point their topspin very soon becomes more consistent against all types of balls.

the main problem is that you CAN successfully hit a topspin from various heights as starting points, you just have to adjust the bat angle and hand speed accordingly. because it can be done quite a lot of people always start from a set height and get used to hitting the ball like that, adjusting everything else even if it's inconsistent as hell. the edge balls that they hit so very often they attribute to bad timing or something similar because it never occurs to them that it is possible to hit a topspin just as spinny or even spinner with a more open bat angle and a higher starting position.

part of the problem is that watching so many pro videos has narrowed down people's imagination to experiment, everybody sees ma long dropping his bat down to his knees on the backswing so they start their loops down there. very few notice how the pros adjust their bat at the end of the backswing.

NextLevel · Apr 28, 2016

I agree, izra, on.some points. Hitting the racket edge is about adjusting to the topspin ball. I have seen higher level players with similar issues vs backspin or nospin. If you decide to call a stroke inconsistent for that reason, that's your prerogative but the fact that a simple adjustment can be suggested means the problem is less serious than many others.

But you must admit that part of the reason it (adjustments) never occurs is because they are very conservative with their strokes and don't experiment. In fact, I was going to post a video by Samson Dubina that I saw yesterday that may help anchor shorten his forehand.

My experience is that the different ways you learn to hit a forehand show up in your game. Even the bad ones you learned when you were 9. That's why you hope you never learned bad ways. But it is also why you need go learn to experiment once you have solid swings. Or you will just be stuck swinging at every ball like it is the ball you hit in practice.

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 28, 2016

I think this dialogue is bringing up some great info.

It's funny. I am reading Izra's and NL's comments and hearing a lot of information that complements and ads scope and perspective rather than contradictory standpoints.

I am also hearing good info that seems to point me towards value of training the random element and how many different versions of this there are.

One of my friends, SmashFan on MyTT, NL knows him, when he trains with me, he does a certain amount of this entertaining drill.

We play a match. And he keeps alternating from feeding me high level garbage balls and then switching to offensive play. The high quality garbage balls are so I have to adjust to different kinds of junk balls over and over. He doesn't use pips. But it is almost like what you get from a decent pips player.

And the all out attack mode is pretty savage. He can rip anything I can give him. And adjusting over and over again to different kinds of shots really helps you read what is coming at you.

It also makes it so that when you play a pips player or a lower level player who gives you weird awkward junk balls by accident because they were lucky to get their racket on the ball, you adjust to them better.

So much to work on. So little time. I guess the idea is, you spend 6 hours a day 6 days a week on stable drills, then you spend another 6 hours a day 6 days a week on random drills, then you spend another 6 hours a day 6 days a week on crosstraining. Then another 6 hours a day 6 days a week on training matches. And 6 more hours a day 6 days a week on video analysis.

My calculations say that comes out to 30 hours a day 6 days a week. [emoji2] Or you start at 4-5 years old when you are a sponge so that, by 9, you can start working on the higher level functions needed for high level TT. Unfortunately, I started 40+ years too late. Hahaha.

Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

NextLevel · Apr 28, 2016

Carl,

Izra's paradigm is the traditional one that I was raised with. While Brett may have subtle areas of disagreement with my writings here, my working with him helped me better appreciate the paradigm I am advocating. It is common to underestimate the ability of the mind and body to adapt if it is forced to do so to achieve a goal. If you watch the video that Brett made on "Adjusting to Backspin", you see part of what influenced my approach. What Brett still has not shared is that when the learner in the video was asked to hit topspin balls, he hit the set mostly off the table. So Brett's concluding point was that most sessions should require someone to loop different kinds of balls back to back either alternately or in short robot feeds so that the mind adapts faster.

So for me, what are technical changes to adjust for and to spin are mostly changes in stroke plane and contact point and depth. But some people teach them as if these things are signs of good or bad strokes. For adults who are consumed with keeping the ball on the table, this makes them think thay every miss is a technical issue as opposed to an adjustment for spin. For me, the stroke is the base swing. Adapting that stroke to different balls is what you do and is mostly a sign of what you practice against.

Tips help, but I overemphasize the role of practice and experimentation because that is where learning occurs. You can learn to counterloop better if you consciously counterloop some balls into the net and off the tablen believe it or not, as that information makes your technique better faster.

izra · Apr 28, 2016

i guess we all start with ourselves. my experience is that i have had problems with counterlooping for years, until i broke down the stroke through experimentation and analysis and identified the problem on a theoretical level. the traditional paradigm for counterlooping that i was raised with was "you have to close the bat angle more" and i see people trying to do it by focusing on the contact over and over again.

with the talented ones the brain makes the calculation, the body adapts the technique and soon they are counterlooping with ease forwarding around the same "just close the bat angle and go forward with your stroke" with absolutely no idea what kind of adaption their body made. the less talented ones listen to this advice and are stuck with the same mistakes for years.

call it talent, call it coordination, brain plasticity or anything else, but the fact remains that some unconsciously keep adapting to different parts of the game while the rest of us have to be guided if we want to make the right changes.

i have seen coaches write off players as untalented, too stiff, too slow or something similar when all they needed to stop making the same mistakes over and over again was for someone to identify the problem and show them how to eliminate it through practice.

yes, practice is everything. nothing can happen without practice. but if you keep making the same mistake in practice it is likely you won't improve much. if the cause of such problem was easily identifiable and rooted out through practice, everyone with enough time on the table would have smooth and efficient technique.

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 28, 2016

NL: I get what you are saying. What I am saying, I think, may be a little different. Next time we hang, remind me to tell you the story about the nickname, "The Grand Interpreter" that a college professor gave me and I will make you laugh.

What I am say is this:

You have this big jigsaw puzzle. There are hundreds of little pieces and it is really hard to fit them together. And, this particular, unique, jigsaw puzzle is constructed in such a way where the pieces could fit together in several different ways. But there are certain specifics and some combinations will work and others just won't. So you've got a bunch of pieces and Izra has also. You know how to fit yours together. And he knows how to fit his together. But you actually could also fit them together with each other and fill out a decently larger piece of the puzzle.

I don't coach table tennis. In fact I refuse to coach table tennis. I have had a bunch of people tell me I would be a good coach. But I'm not going to go there. I already turned two hobbies into professions. Both were more lucrative and more fun than coaching other people to play could possibly be, at least for me. I want to keep this as a hobby. I don't want anything from table tennis but the love of playing.

Although I don't teach people how to play TT better. I do teach something. And so I understand that the process of teaching is getting people to go from a place of not understanding something to having this lightbulb turned on and the pieces that didn't fit together falling into place. It is cool to see the inner glow that occurs when that lightbulb switches on.

And all I am saying is, if you two can figure out how your separate pieces of that puzzle fit together, you may have more of the puzzle put together than you had before you put your puzzle pieces together.

See, can't you tell I teach yoga. Hahaha.

Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Archosaurus · Apr 28, 2016

I know I'm going to get talked shit on, but bear in mind this is not my original thought at all. It comes from Ross Bentley.

When attempting to learn something or to break a habit, you need to employ a method of MI + A, or Mental Image + Awareness.

Most people have either a good Mental Image, which means they know what they should be doing, or good Awareness, which means they know what they're doing currently. Few have a good MI + A, which means that they know what they're doing now AND what they should be doing.

The coach's job is to provide you with a good MI + A, but you need to consciously think about it yourself.

You can't know where you're going to end up if you don't know where you're going, and you can't navigate to where you want to go if you don't know where you are.

izra · Apr 29, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
NL: I get what you are saying. What I am saying, I think, may be a little different. Next time we hang, remind me to tell you the story about the nickname, "The Grand Interpreter" that a college professor gave me and I will make you laugh.

What I am say is this:

You have this big jigsaw puzzle. There are hundreds of little pieces and it is really hard to fit them together. And, this particular, unique, jigsaw puzzle is constructed in such a way where the pieces could fit together in several different ways. But there are certain specifics and some combinations will work and others just won't. So you've got a bunch of pieces and Izra has also. You know how to fit yours together. And he knows how to fit his together. But you actually could also fit them together with each other and fill out a decently larger piece of the puzzle.

I don't coach table tennis. In fact I refuse to coach table tennis. I have had a bunch of people tell me I would be a good coach. But I'm not going to go there. I already turned two hobbies into professions. Both were more lucrative and more fun than coaching other people to play could possibly be, at least for me. I want to keep this as a hobby. I don't want anything from table tennis but the love of playing.

Although I don't teach people how to play TT better. I do teach something. And so I understand that the process of teaching is getting people to go from a place of not understanding something to having this lightbulb turned on and the pieces that didn't fit together falling into place. It is cool to see the inner glow that occurs when that lightbulb switches on.

And all I am saying is, if you two can figure out how your separate pieces of that puzzle fit together, you may have more of the puzzle put together than you had before you put your puzzle pieces together.

See, can't you tell I teach yoga. Hahaha.

Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

sure can.

NL has some great advice both in general and here. it's just my opinion based on personal experience that my method will get most people to where they want to be sooner. of course i think my method is the best or else i wouldn't be preaching it.

doesn't mean there's anything wrong with NL's method though. doesn't even mean that i'm right. i just go with whatever i find works the best and that can always change. if it didn't change i could never improve as a coach.

Archosaurus said:
I know I'm going to get talked shit on, but bear in mind this is not my original thought at all. It comes from Ross Bentley.

When attempting to learn something or to break a habit, you need to employ a method of MI + A, or Mental Image + Awareness.

Most people have either a good Mental Image, which means they know what they should be doing, or good Awareness, which means they know what they're doing currently. Few have a good MI + A, which means that they know what they're doing now AND what they should be doing.

The coach's job is to provide you with a good MI + A, but you need to consciously think about it yourself.

You can't know where you're going to end up if you don't know where you're going, and you can't navigate to where you want to go if you don't know where you are.

you have no idea how many high level table tennis players actually have a skewed MI of what they are doing and have pretty much zero A about it. in my experience the most talented players think the least about what they are doing so they tend to be horrible at breaking it down and explaining it. a player that has a decent forehand that gets the job done but an awesome backhand trademark shot - the chances are he will be much better at explaining the forehand.

Archosaurus · Apr 29, 2016

izra said:
sure can. NL has some great advice both in general and here. it's just my opinion based on personal experience that my method will get most people to where they want to be sooner. of course i think my method is the best or else i wouldn't be preaching it. doesn't mean there's anything wrong with NL's method though. doesn't even mean that i'm right. i just go with whatever i find works the best and that can always change. if it didn't change i could never improve as a coach.

you have no idea how many high level table tennis players actually have a skewed MI of what they are doing and have pretty much zero A about it.

They are able to not have a good technical understanding of what they're doing because they've been coached well from a young age and not had to think about it in a concrete way.

What you're missing is that their body has an exceptional understanding of what it's doing, and what it should be doing to achieve something. They can do very much with very little technical instruction. They can't put it on paper at all or explain it to anyone in a way that'd be truthful of what's really happening, but their body is well aware.

izra · Apr 29, 2016

Archosaurus said:
They can't put it on paper at all or explain it to anyone in a way that'd be truthful of what's really happening, but their body is well aware.

that goes without saying.

Archosaurus · Apr 29, 2016

izra said:
that goes without saying.

Yes. The key point here is that they're not actually unaware. They're aware of their actions in a way that's far more beneficial to actually playing the game than just knowing them in theory. It'd be incorrect to think they have a bad MI + A: it's just really crappy when on paper.

Need help fixing forehand technique

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