Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

Thank you so much for your forum! My name is Marianna Smith and it's a big pleasure to become a part of this amazing community

Archosaurus said:

@NextLevel

Mind if I borrow some of that lost backhand once you find it?

I have a bad habit of changing my angle from nearly open to more closed on my backhand, and it doesn't always feel like I'm doing it so much. It produces a flatter hit and it's not what I want, so I want to get rid of it.

I do this to some extent on my forehand, except the angle goes from closed to more open. The end result is still a flatter hit than I am thinking of, and the still frames don't lie.

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I like to consider myself a good backhand topspin coach, but believe it or not, I have no clue what you are talking about even when you describe it in detail. As you get better, you realize that you are not always doing what you think you are doing. Bot in good and bad ways.

NextLevel said:

I like to consider myself a good backhand topspin coach, but believe it or not, I have no clue what you are talking about even when you describe it in detail. As you get better, you realize that you are not always doing what you think you are doing. Bot in good and bad ways.

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Something like this. I am trying to contact at an angle closer to the 3rd picture than the 2nd picture. However, the lack of spin and the still frames don't lie: it's flat.

Arch,

Try to stop thinking in terms of closed and open racket angles. It's not useful.

Your photos suggest that you are not getting any wrist rotation at the end of your backswing. You should be trying to get the tip of the rubber (the part farthest from the handle) to face your belly button. Rewatch Brett Clarke's video on Advanced Whip Mechanics and forget about everything else for now.

Archosaurus said:

View attachment 12648View attachment 12649View attachment 12650

Something like this. I am trying to contact at an angle closer to the 3rd picture than the 2nd picture. However, the lack of spin and the still frames don't lie: it's flat.

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I am sure that I could find pictures in my shot selection that look precisely like that Archo, so it doesn't tell me anything.

That said, if you want to look at a good backhand loop, here is a good one to model. It's not the only way to approach the shot, and probably not my preferred way, but I like it.

https://youtu.be/uXuUOuyJDRw

SchemeSC said:

Arch,

Try to stop thinking in terms of closed and open racket angles. It's not useful.

Your photos suggest that you are not getting any wrist rotation at the end of your backswing. You should be trying to get the tip of the rubber (the part farthest from the handle) to face your belly button. Rewatch Brett Clarke's video on Advanced Whip Mechanics and forget about everything else for now.

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The funny thing is that the backhand I modeled the most (Henzell) doesn't consistently do this. I just prefer to get a feel for the whip in the shot and go from there, though what you describe if done with whip is the highest level of the shot.

Tomorrow I will film myself doing backhands with whip and see if they change. The shot I took pictures of has basically no whip. Perhaps that is the case.

NextLevel said:

I am going through the pain process of trying to reactivate my backhand. I used to have a good over the table backhand that has suffered from severe neglect. Tried to do it yesterday and almost lost matches using it. I will persevere and see where it gets me.

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UGH! Sorry to hear Sir!

Okay here we go.

Again a little background. Spent the last couple of years or so primarily playing the short pip/long pip twiddle game. Want to move to inverted/long pip for better attacking speed & spin plus it helps out the RPB. I do have experience playing inverted. Just been a while.

Taking feedback on technique that needs refinement.

My overall thoughts after seeing this.
- Man video taping yourself is not fun. Just doesn't look good. But that's okay. All in the name of improvement
- I think i stand too upright. I look like a giant in relation to the table. I'm only 6'0. So i just need to either bend my knees more or go to a wider stance I think.
- What i'm really trying to improve is the FH inverted loop. In stretch in the middle was wildly inconsistent and I just look lazy. The stretch at the very end is better. Just needs work. Taking feedback.
- I think my LP counter hitting was okay for how hard that can be. Honestly it reminds a fair amount like short pip controlled hitting.

Thanks.

maryysmith11 said:

Thank you so much for your forum! My name is Marianna Smith and it's a big pleasure to become a part of this amazing community

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Welcome Marianna.

Suds, for your BH away from table, it would help you greatly if you dipped or squatted the waist more and explode up and forward. Your arm looks like there is good whip, but you do not leverage the shot enough.

@suds79

Let me tell you, if you want to get lower and adopt a better stance, you've gotta video yourself and be honest. In my experience, what you feel and what is going on have nothing to do with each other at first. I always feel like I'm somewhat sensibly wide and low, but on video, my stance is often under one shoulder width. Let's not even talk about a wide stance: I can't even keep a standard stance. I wouldn't know this if I hadn't taken video from different angles. I always thought my stance was somewhat sensible.

Unlike you, I'm 5' 7 or so, so I don't even have an excuse. Honestly, neither do you if your body is fine.

I went to club to play today, despite the horrible balls there. I just try to filter out the paper ones, and play with players that will do the same. Surprisingly, without much practice recently, I was finding it very fast to acquire the touch on my shots, and soon, I was making shots that shock my usual doubles partner.

I played 2 doubles with my usual doubles partner today, winning them 3:1 and 3:0. During my serves, I remembered how I ought to serve in order to produce bit more consistent and shorter backspin serves, and as a result of that, they work alot better now (with the opponents chopping it to the net), and they compliment my no spin serve alot better too (with quite a few occassions where I was able to cho because they pop it up and my doubles partner kill it after )

Then I also had some time to just practice 1 on 1 with my doubles partner, and I feel quite comfortable with looping, just letting it go, not worrying about my body. Also practiced some lobbing, which proved to be useful in one of the points in our doubles match after (only 1 point though haha), but it was still fun.

I think if I just have this attitude of having fun while I go to the club and play (and train), I will feel alot better at the end of the day, because even if I didn't improve much (due to all different balls or no tables for singles), I still had fun. If I improved my form a bit, that is bonus already.

My highlight of the day was when I did a RPB banana flip that was super slow, but very spinny and low, and it went over to their side, touch the bat, and it just flew off the table

Suds79,

We are not professional athletes doing squats on a daily basis. If you want to play lower, do some exercises to develop quad strength (inner and outer) and get lower. If not, do your best and let it be by having a wider stance. People talk about getting lower as if it is the holy grail and while it is incredibly important to professionals to optimize their technique, amateurs should just do the best they can because the physical demands are not as trivial as some people make out. There is enough fun in this game to be had from having good strokes and you can develop 2200+ level technique standing straight for the most part and getting low when the need arises.

Putting the camera behind you will let use see the more interesting parts of what you are trying to do. FWIW, IMVHO, the shot selection is much too large for a semi-serious adult player. Our hours in the day are too limited to be using ALL these shots at a decent level in matches. I would just focus on loop and block/hit and push on both sides. IF you decide you want to play TPB backhand, that is fine. If you want to use LP RPB, that is fine as well. But versatility, even if fun, slows you down when it comes to selecting shots in matches and the plays are not as sharp and well defined. Even as a two winged looper, I bias myself to bring in certain weapons behind certain serves so that I am not thinking in real time about what to do.

I also suspect, even though I might be wrong, that a lot of the ball quality you are getting is a result of what is coming from the robot. Would like to see your basic technique either against block or against balls you drop and loop on the table or loop out of your hand.

On getting low, you need to play more of your forehand strokes squarer to the table. Biasing your stance to favor your forehand so much is going to result in a mental disparity between the forehands you play in practice and the forehands you play in matches. You should also practice looping and resetting with the forehand closer to the table.

Just general comments and it is a good sample of all the shots. Let's pick one or two (preferably the loops or the basic counters that you want to improve)? IF you are doing penhold, then it is better to stick to forehand as I really don't understand the penhold grip enough to discuss anything else. Well, I do understand the inverted backhand and you have a lot of work to do there.

Thanks for the feedback everybody. I will take all comments into account.

Club is Sunday so I will try to record some singles matches and post them fore review. Win or lose.

Appreciate the help.

suds79 said:

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1) Inverted TPB Punch

i cannot tell from this video clearly - when you punch, what does your thumb do? From your motion, I believe you do what i do and the thumb is dynamic and not static. But am not 100% sure, hence my question.

Although I've had some coaching, it was 30+yrs ago ... old man memory - i may or may not do the punch correctly, but i was either taught or remember (perhaps incorrectly) to control the punch and not extend my arm that far out -- it seems your punches have an almost full arm extension ... my punch is a few inches extended out ... much less than your punch's extension - idk if it's right or wrong with my short stroke punch, will try the longer stroke punch next week.

2) Inverted TPB Sidespin chop-block

OH MY GUOYUEHUA! I didn't remember this technique over the years ... i may have at times unconsciously sporadically done this in my 'unretirement' - will have to try this out next week and try to incorporate this technique consciously into my game. thank you suds!

3) Twiddle

~0:42-0:45 / ~1:44 I've said it in the past, I'll say it again, i marvel at how smooth and fast you twiddle - SWEETNESS!!

4) Inverted Loop

Please know that I suck at looping, still trying to get the proper form

~2:11-2:19 it looks like you are physically picking up your right leg. is this true?

Thank you for sharing your video!

~osph

1)
Yes I do. I kind extend it and slide it down the neck of the paddle on the TPB. It can't stay curled or tight around the neck like normal as i wouldn't be able to close the face of the blade enough on blocks. There is this one youtube channel featuring this one player with one of the best TBP aggressive blocks I've ever seen. It's amazing. But I sub to to many channels, having a hard time finding it. When I do, I'll be sure to pass it along to you. He's amazing.

2)
Yeah I use it sometimes as a change up. I prefer doing it with the LPs. It's easier for me. If you do it with inverted, just make sure you really close the face of that blade. Otherwise it'll fly long. Will come across almost like an attack chop kinda... I have to be careful how much i use it because the way the ball curves for me being a left, it curves into someone's FH. And if they have a good loop, then I could be in trouble. If I were like you & right handed, assuming you go across the body like I do (seems the most natural to me) then it should curve into your opponents (assuming righty) backhand. Perfect. Dare them to loop that as it has backspin & is curving away from them.

3)
Thanks. Sadly, it's the only part of my game that I consider really really good.

4)
I probably am at times. I'm just trying to get weight transfer and sometimes the leg comes up. I've seen other penholders do this so I don't know if it's technically a bad thing or not. I suppose if you can get proper weight transfer without it? Great. But i'm not sure.

suds79 said:

4)
I probably am at times. I'm just trying to get weight transfer and sometimes the leg comes up. I've seen other penholders do this so I don't know if it's technically a bad thing or not. I suppose if you can get proper weight transfer without it? Great. But i'm not sure.

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Picking up the non-racket leg is actually a sign that you aren't getting the right kind of weight transfer (well, if you aren't going from one leg to the other through the stroke) and is one of the reasons a coach I respect doesn't teach looping in terms of weight transfer.

Nei ho si-hing! / Ni hao shi-xiong!

JeffM said:

Surprisingly, without much practice recently, I was finding it very fast to acquire the touch on my shots, and soon, I was making shots that shock my usual doubles partner.

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EXCELLENT!! After 3-5 months off, both touch and timing are way off for me LOLOL

they compliment my no spin serve alot better too (with quite a few occassions where I was able to cho because they pop it up and my doubles partner kill it after )

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Very cool! I have to work on my no spin serves more, way more lol One of the most satisfying feelings in TT is setting up your doubles partner with your serve for their easy 3rd ball attack!!

...I feel quite comfortable with looping, just letting it go, ...

I think if I just have this attitude of having fun while I go to the club and play (and train), I will feel alot better at the end of the day, because even if I didn't improve much (due to all different balls or no tables for singles), I still had fun. If I improved my form a bit, that is bonus already.

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My martial arts instructor teaches: "The 3 F's" (Fit, Fun, and Functional)

If you are having Fun while doing an activity which will make you Fit, you won't think it a chore and would continue to do the activity

If you are having Fun, there are (i don't recall the specific scientific terms or names, please forgive me if inaccurate) some pleasure hormones released in the brain/body ... this puts one in a relaxed state and facilitates learning ... if one fears or hates the activity, there is stress in the brain/body and it's harder for one to learn in this state.

So smile, laugh and have fun and focus on the positive and not dwell on the negative!

NextLevel said:

FWIW, IMVHO, the shot selection is much too large for a semi-serious adult player. Our hours in the day are too limited to be using ALL these shots at a decent level in matches. I would just focus on loop and block/hit and push on both sides. IF you decide you want to play TPB backhand, that is fine. If you want to use LP RPB, that is fine as well. But versatility, even if fun, slows you down when it comes to selecting shots in matches and the plays are not as sharp and well defined. Even as a two winged looper, I bias myself to bring in certain weapons behind certain serves so that I am not thinking in real time about what to do.

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Agreed Sir. In psychology this is called Hick's Law (copy and paste from wiki):

"Hick's law, or the Hick–Hyman Law, named after British and American psychologists William Edmund Hick and Ray Hyman, describes the time it takes for a person to make a decision as a result of the possible choices he or she has: increasing the number of choices will increase the decision time logarithmically."

Bruce Lee called it "choice reaction":


"Choice reaction requires more comprehension and deliberation than simple reaction which is instinctive, quickest and most accurate. Like speed, if you have to concentrate on more than one item or act, your reaction will be slower as each requires some degree of concentration before you can respond."


From "Bruce Lee''s Fighting Method: Advanced Techniques" Page 121

My coach of ages ago, Alex Tam, was an oldschool PH with SP. He had a fantastic BH smash! Tried to teach me and I couldn't get it. Was also frustrated when i wasted time to decide should i punch or go for a BH smash or swing around for the FH. I gave up on the BH smash and just focused on the punch. Saves on decision time.

Agreed on serve/3rd ball combo ... e.g. i serve a rocket and if 2nd ball is to my BH side, i will 90% punch down-the-line to partner's FH side. If to my FH, 90% will look to FH smash.

IF you are doing penhold, then it is better to stick to forehand as I really don't understand the penhold grip enough to discuss anything else. Well, I do understand the inverted backhand and you have a lot of work to do there.

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suds,

There are some regular CCers on this DTT CC thread who play PH and may chime in to help ... off the top of my head, 2 PH way better than me, songdavid (he's lefty too!) and JeffM.