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  1. Shree is offline
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    #1

    Pips in V/S pips out

    Inverted rubbers on hard ply (Carbon) laminated has advantage in Blocking and Backhand drive If compared Pips pips out it is good for keeping the ball low short pips and receiving high spun service we can flick the ball and make the topspin player guessing and one can decide to use pips in or out I advice vetran players to use pips out on back hand so that speed of the game can be reduced.

    But I ultimately found that hard rubbers are good for both back hand and for hand who cannot move at the speed of the ball it keeps the ball low .
    I hope this above statement holds good .

    Thanks
    Shreeshaila
    India

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    #2
    But not all pips out rubbers are defensive...some are more lethal than pips in rubbers.
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    #3
    Pips are deceptive in nature and slow the ball down therefore they are a defensive type of rubber. It's how you use them that defines the type of shot. Any rubber can be used for an offensive shot and a defensive shot. While I totally believe that every player should have the right to use whatever rubber they choose, I believe we need to create an organization that only allows inverted rubbers to accommodate the players who have trouble with the pips. There are already plenty of players witn pips in the current organizations and there are even sandpaper and hardbat events all over the world. What we need now is an Inverted only player to just make the complaining stop.

    Pips are for players who prefer athleticism and/or deception over technique and skill. You aren't skilled at TT if you're using pips because they do most of the work. For the inverted rubbers technique must be mastered meaning a required skill level must be in place to win matches.

    I've personally played players that are 400-500 rated points above my skill level and won against them when I've switched to any type of pips. It's a clear advantage and in my opinion only stagnates the growth of the sport. Deceptive players and pips players tend to really lower the level of play in an area because they rarely allow players to learn technique properly. Typically a player will learn from experience rather than coaching and therefore strike up some fairly ugly techniques. Their elbows are out of place wrist takes up more action rather than the arm and shoulder and footwork becomes terrible as they would rather reach than position for the strongest stroke.

    I suggest that instead of complaining about the pips a player may use, help to start up leagues or events at tournaments where Pips are not allowed. Equality for all meaning if you want to learn how to beat pips you can take the time to do so, but if you want to just play inverted players there is also the option for that as well. If we were able to gain more players in events, I'm sure organizations would strike up more events across the globe.

    So here's to some more TT Growth.

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    #4
    Actually the usage of pips comes back to what is the player's playing style.
    Look at Carl Prean (Long pips hitter) and Jang Song Man, Ding Song, or Hou Yingchao (short pips chopper).

    And dang sir Richard, pips did not stagnate the sport, it stagnates lazy-to-learn players..
    Once I understand pips, I could play against them easy..
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    #5
    And dang sir Richard, pips did not stagnate the sport, it stagnates lazy-to-learn players..
    Once I understand pips, I could play against them easy..
    I have to agree with Yosua on this. Pips out players are just one of the variety in TT sports today. Some of their techniques are quirky, but we often find problems facing these unorthodox players. So why not seek out these players and practice against them. It will improve your overall footwork especially and increase your spin variety. And as for techniques, as long as it works for you. A good coach can always adapt and improve these quirky techniques.

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  6. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #6
    I play inverted on both sides but I love playing against pips. I have trouble playing against short pips but that just gives me the incentive to get better. I do not have much trouble playing against long pips or anti-spin because the main thing is that you need to watch the other player, which side he used, how he contacted the ball, and what spin you gave him. It makes you have to focus more. So I like that.

    I do agree with Mr RicharD that having an all smooth rubber (no anti or pips) league would be fine fore people who do not want to play against deceptive rubbers. But playing against deceptive rubbers improves your game in so many ways, footwork, dealing with spin variations you would not have had to deal with otherwise, having to be alert and pay close attention to every detail of what the other player is doing. I again like it for the need to increase your attention and focus. That is one of the things I love about the game. And you cannot miss it when you misread spin. And it is nobody's fault but your own when you misread spin.

    You can have beautiful looking strokes and great form and footwork but if you do not read the spin coming at you correctly there is more to work on in your technique.

    Viva la differance.

    As far as technique with deceptive rubbers, my experience has been, that there are players who use these kinds of rubbers and it retards their development of technical skill even though they beat players that they would otherwise have never been able to beat. And then there are the real players who learn good technique, continue to develop their good technique and use their pips rubbers as well.

    I also know players who use smooth rubbers and use it as a crutch to make their smashes faster without ever improving their technique and without learning all aspects of the game so that they have a complete game. I have heard Hard Bat players complain about all smooth players like that. And then I have seen players who are good, have good technique put their smooth rubber paddle aside and give those same hard bat players a lesson with their hard bats. So, it takes all kinds. And good technique is good technique.
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    #7
    Sir
    Thanks for your advice and I would like to add to thought that Pips In or out
    We should learn TT by scientific approach and train students at an early age we can show the feel of pips and plain and give and example to child who picks up tt at faster rate and if this child grows up he will not worry about pips in or out but he will be there on table applying his mind and playing grace full TT

  8. Tinykin is offline
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    #8
    I sympathise with Richard. I dislike playing combination LP/Anti/Inverted players. I get no pleasure in beating them as the match was probably some hard slog with few enjoyable moments. Sometimes I get beat by inverted players who really banged the ball pass me but I still prefer that as I could appreciate the skill in those shots.
    But I would not ban pips or anti.
    I think the real problem inverted only players have with combi batters is not the weird rubber itself but the difference in pace, spin etc between the two sides. Pin the combi player on his LP side only and he has real problems.
    My solution is to have a rule that players must have the same model rubber + sponge on both sides with as little difference in thickness as is practicable possible.
    Tennis, badminton, squash have always had that by default.

    Shree, very few players will ever get the chance to " learn TT by scientific approach and train students at an early age". As much as I agree with you, we have to think of how the vast majority get into and play the sport. Those who do get regular training, whether scientific or not, generally don't have problems with pips/anti etc.
    Last edited by Tinykin; 10-22-2011 at 08:15 PM.
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  9. Der_Echte is offline
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    #9
    I strive to find and play vs every style of player I can find. I am especially keen on playing pips players. The ones here are 90% LP OX on BH who play a BH punchblock with OX LP and FH smash kill any loose ball on FH. You have to think, you have to have effective and consistant strokes, and play the right tactics to win. I usually win vs these players, even if they are one full level above me. I really enjoy matches vs pips players.

    For someone who does not have solid strokes that are consistantly landing, who does not control the ball well, who does not make good stroke decisions, who does not have good balance, who does not have the patience to hit a ball to the pips and finish the return... to these players, any player with pips who can keep it on the table is their worst nightmare. The inverted player who does not know how or is strong enough to cope with the LP player gets upset and angry enough to possibly quit the sport or throw a major tantrum. This is what some posters refer to when saying LPs hinder the sport. I can see the point, but a 2000 level power looper still crushed the 1500 level player to teh same degree and gets the same repsonse, so personally, I do no accept this as a hindrance to TT.

    Now a skilled player who knows how to use SP on BH can be anyone's nightmare up to, but not including the pro level. A well trained SP BH player can more easily manipulate the spin from a loop and control placement well and rob your time by taking it off the bounce. The inverted attacker has to have way stronger attacks and way better control and way better spin variation control to cope with a skilled SP BH opponent. Korea has many of these players in National div 2 and div one, even more in div 1 in the regional tourneys. To defeat these div 1 SP opponents, you really have to play at a high level, because well, div 1 is a really high level and there are no easy matchups in div 1. Everyone there is a shark ready to kill you, shread your body up, then eat you.
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  10. Der_Echte is offline
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    #10
    Haha, I failed to address the most obvious flaw in players who fail to cope with LPs or whatever - FAILING to READ the SPIN.

    I am glad Carl addressed this and is right on mark not only in what is the flaw, but WHO is repsonsible for it.

    I really want to puke when I hear someone complain that pips should be banned because they are ugly and cause them to lose. They should motivate you to become better and overcome the problems that cause the loss. Still, in USA, the great majority are not in a situation to effectively train, or even train ineffectively, as it is very hard in many places to find even another registered USATT player of 1500 rating in a city of 100,000.
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  11. Der_Echte is offline
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    #11
    Thread hijack or suggestion for another discussion:

    Why do many in your country fail to improve past a sub-solid level, like 1500-1700 USATT level??? In USA, many never improve past USATT 1700 rating, which is not really a solid player by any measure. Many in USA are in the 1500-1700 range, which is a group that has many of the problems I listed a few posts above. Just about any pips player who can keep it on the table 2-3 times a rally will win 90% of the time easily, causing the inverted player to lose temper, smash rackets, and storm out of the sport.

    Even though players eagerly desire to improve, and posess the mental/physical abilities to improve well past USATT 2000, then why are so many NEVER getting past USATT 1700, even though they played the sport 10 years or more.

    My answer is zero or little effective training, if they get to train at all. in USA, you might have to drive HOURS by car just to find a club. Even if you get to a club, most of the time, it is just matches. There are too many players competing to play on too few tables. Even in a place where there is a good coach, coaching in USA from a 2400+ level player can cost $50-$80 an hour. The cost alone is a show stopper for 90%. Very few places like Korean clubs in Dallas/LA are affordable with lessons and an evironment to grow.
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    #12
    Nice posts there Der_Echte I agree that pips players are nice to play against when you know what to do. I'm suprised about the training thing in the USA though.. Is it really that hard? When I'm not injured I get group practise twice a week from our former national coach, for a normal annual membership of the club. (Around € 100 a year)

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    #13
    @ Yosua - It does stagnate the sport. The number one complaint in the sport of table tennis from any type of player is that they wish people didn't rely on pips so much. The difference is that some have learned how to learn to beat pips and others just complain about them. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have the right to play with them. I simply am tired of hearing people who are too lazy to learn how to beat them complain about it at every club/tournament I attend. It shouldn't be banned entirely, there should just be an inverted only event that players can enter and worry more about skill rather than equipment. Then the majority of players have nothing to complain about other than some smaller items that you hear at tournys.

    @ Carl - Not reading spin has nothing to do with technique. It's just lack of experience. The problem with pips players is that they typically will use the pips for two reasons. They already have poor technique that they would rather not develop and they need the deception of twiddling or just the LP to help them win the points. When using Long Pips you have 3 options that come from a variety of different type of strokes. You can reverse, cancel, or even corkscrew the spin that your opponent gives you. And when you aren't able to read those spins or are unable to reach the ball because of the lack of spin/speed on the ball it's rather annoying.

    What I was pointing out here was that pips and anti allow an otherwise less skilled player to play others that are at a clear higher level. The sport becomes about winning rather than improving. I live in PA and we have one of the largest areas where LP and Anti are the common thing around here, but I have had so many players come in to learn about table tennis, but because they don't have the income to learn from a coach end up quitting because the pips and anti players refuse to play them so that they can learn how to play them. It's rather disturbing, but common place in the U.S.

    With so many different styles and immigrants with different systems of training we have a conglomerate of players that are at a high level that do nothing to help grow the sport here. It's just a bunch of players who would rather win their 1-3K winnings each weekend and the rest of the players either end up quitting or just playing at a lower level because they have no one to help them reach a higher level.

    This stagnates the sport and seriously needs to be averted. I'm taking it upon myself to correct the situation by hopefully soon creating a better organization where pips players don't ruin it for the new guy.

    Ironically everything that can be done with pips and anti can be done with inverted it just requires touch and skill whether formed through talent or practice.

    @ Tinykin - See that's the wrong way to look at things. Instead of just saying very few people will be able to do anything about it why not go and do it yourself? Get the ball rolling yourself and people will join in. Start up clubs, teams, leagues, and whatever else you can to increase both public knowledge and professional knowledge of the sport. It can be done, it just needs someone who's willing to say I'm tired of complaining and settling, I'm going to start doing.

    @ all - Be prepared for the U.S. My goal is within the next 1-2 years to get the ball rolling so that we at least triple in size for who plays at clubs and how many attend tournaments. Thus increasing the prize money and also hopefully increasing sponsors willing to back the sport. I'm tired of sitting around and letting the organizations dictate that the growth of the sport should be 10% in 10 years. The Chinese took control of this sport because frankly we let them. We refused to fund programs where we could help grow the sport and thus create better athletes. They saw what was happening and adapted and we just kind of let them continue to grow until the current situation we're in.

    Help me out by just doing something. Start a small club in a basement or go out and find a gymnasium or church or somewhere where you can set up a table and get people to play. Who knows maybe Waldner wasn't one in a million maybe he's just one in a thousand. Get the ball rolling!

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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. RicharD
    @ Yosua - It does stagnate the sport. The number one complaint in the sport of table tennis from any type of player is that they wish people didn't rely on pips so much. The difference is that some have learned how to learn to beat pips and others just complain about them. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have the right to play with them. I simply am tired of hearing people who are too lazy to learn how to beat them complain about it at every club/tournament I attend. It shouldn't be banned entirely, there should just be an inverted only event that players can enter and worry more about skill rather than equipment. Then the majority of players have nothing to complain about other than some smaller items that you hear at tournys.

    @ Carl - Not reading spin has nothing to do with technique. It's just lack of experience. The problem with pips players is that they typically will use the pips for two reasons. They already have poor technique that they would rather not develop and they need the deception of twiddling or just the LP to help them win the points. When using Long Pips you have 3 options that come from a variety of different type of strokes. You can reverse, cancel, or even corkscrew the spin that your opponent gives you. And when you aren't able to read those spins or are unable to reach the ball because of the lack of spin/speed on the ball it's rather annoying.

    What I was pointing out here was that pips and anti allow an otherwise less skilled player to play others that are at a clear higher level. The sport becomes about winning rather than improving. I live in PA and we have one of the largest areas where LP and Anti are the common thing around here, but I have had so many players come in to learn about table tennis, but because they don't have the income to learn from a coach end up quitting because the pips and anti players refuse to play them so that they can learn how to play them. It's rather disturbing, but common place in the U.S.

    With so many different styles and immigrants with different systems of training we have a conglomerate of players that are at a high level that do nothing to help grow the sport here. It's just a bunch of players who would rather win their 1-3K winnings each weekend and the rest of the players either end up quitting or just playing at a lower level because they have no one to help them reach a higher level.

    This stagnates the sport and seriously needs to be averted. I'm taking it upon myself to correct the situation by hopefully soon creating a better organization where pips players don't ruin it for the new guy.

    Ironically everything that can be done with pips and anti can be done with inverted it just requires touch and skill whether formed through talent or practice.

    @ Tinykin - See that's the wrong way to look at things. Instead of just saying very few people will be able to do anything about it why not go and do it yourself? Get the ball rolling yourself and people will join in. Start up clubs, teams, leagues, and whatever else you can to increase both public knowledge and professional knowledge of the sport. It can be done, it just needs someone who's willing to say I'm tired of complaining and settling, I'm going to start doing.

    @ all - Be prepared for the U.S. My goal is within the next 1-2 years to get the ball rolling so that we at least triple in size for who plays at clubs and how many attend tournaments. Thus increasing the prize money and also hopefully increasing sponsors willing to back the sport. I'm tired of sitting around and letting the organizations dictate that the growth of the sport should be 10% in 10 years. The Chinese took control of this sport because frankly we let them. We refused to fund programs where we could help grow the sport and thus create better athletes. They saw what was happening and adapted and we just kind of let them continue to grow until the current situation we're in.

    Help me out by just doing something. Start a small club in a basement or go out and find a gymnasium or church or somewhere where you can set up a table and get people to play. Who knows maybe Waldner wasn't one in a million maybe he's just one in a thousand. Get the ball rolling!
    I still think that using pips on a higher level does require a unique skill, which is indeed different from inverted. But it is still table tennis skill. Having said that I also think that the type of tournament/league u mention where only inverted is allowed would be appreciated by many players, so it might be possible to create some inverted-only circuit, which is for most new players a nicer way to meet table tennis. So I don't think it should be banned, but the seperate events can be a really good idea!

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    #15
    Yes, using pips does need skills, a unique one at that. I tried and I failed miserably. The skill to make the ball sway, float, chop and even super topspin is just ridiculous. My team mate who uses an OX on his BH, he can really put tremendous spin and speed on his BH that sometimes put me to shame. hehehe

    And as for the tourney, here in Malaysia, we do have such tournaments where only inverted rubber players competes. I don't participate in these tourney coz I kinda enjoy playing against long pips, OX, anti etc.
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    #16
    Hah.. I should send this thread to OOAKForum to see what they would say
    Anyways, I have my own thoughts about pips, everyone also has..

    In training with a fellow inexperienced junior, I always twiddle to inverted or play with them with my inverted so I won't destroy their feel of the game. Nuff said.
    For those people who don't understand, at any risk, I will tell them how to play against pips..
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    #17
    Sir,
    I appreciate your point of view that every one cannot get scientific training . But when a child learns to walk there is no scientific approach it tries to over come and attempts repeatedly and tries to reach the target .
    Here I say that Pips in or out they are speed breakers and we should be more careful and try to watch the Ball as we watch the speed breakers on the road.

    So watching the ball is like watching the speed breakers to succeed in our strokes we should be care full and try to executive the strokes as per the speed and spin or deception by a player and improve upon our game of Great TT
    Tahnks

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    #18
    Sir,
    I appreciate your point of view that every one cannot get scientific training . But when a child learns to walk there is no scientific approach it tries to over come and attempts repeatedly and tries to reach the target .
    Here I say that Pips in or out they are speed breakers and we should be more careful and try to watch the Ball as we watch the speed breakers on the road.

    So watching the ball is like watching the speed breakers to succeed in our strokes we should be care full and try to executive the strokes as per the speed and spin or deception by a player and improve upon our game of Great TT
    Thanks

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    #19
    I never said anything about banning rubbers. I'm all for keep rubbers in the sport because it is fun to watch players compete at higher levels that have no problems with the pips and anti.

    As for skill involving pips. There is very little skill involved with using pips. If there was a type of skill involved then players would not all have different types of styles and awkward hits to get the pips to reverse spin or what not for them. For short pips you only need to know how to drive the ball as they produce dead balls and rarely ever need to be looping with the pips. I believe that LP players need crazy amounts of athleticism because it requires you being able to get to the ball or having great reflexes to chopblock off the bounce.

    Let me explain what I mean by skill. There's natural talent and there's skill (something learned through training). You can use the pips over and over again, but you will rarely ever raise your level considerably each time you practice. Because the LP reverses the spin or the SP produce dead balls you rely on deception and hope the other player will make a mistake. LP players rarely ever attack topspin or heavy underspin balls. They prefer to attack dead or weak topspin balls making it easier for them to come in and smash (i.e. Chen or Joo). That's all athleticism. Anyone can train to get to that level and if you want technique Joo has the best form as he's the best Defender in the World. But skill has nothing to do with it because he hasn't learned how to reverse the spin the Pips do that automatically for him. If you wanted to reverse the spin with inverted that would take skill because it requires a physical effort to produce the result. Samsonov very often does this from far back where he'll corkscrew the ball so that it produces a "reversed" spin. The Chinese did this in the past where they would loop the ball with side and top spin to corkscrew the ball so that when the opponent blocked or countered the ball it would "feel" like it was underspin.

    All in all, I'm not bashing on pips or any deceptive rubbers I just simply want to end the constant complaining coming from players who prefer not to use them. Create more clubs and leagues where inverted only events exist and then we reduce the complaints of playing pips players.

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    #20

    You gotta be kiddin' me

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. RicharD
    Pips are for players who prefer athleticism and/or deception over technique and skill. You aren't skilled at TT if you're using pips because they do most of the work. For the inverted rubbers technique must be mastered meaning a required skill level must be in place to win matches.
    I must ask you. The Chinese are saying, that there are/were no player like Liu Gouliang. Liu Gouliang was arguably the best TT player ever, and he played short pips in his forhand, do you really think he has bad tecnique, or was a bad player?
    If you do not know him, there is a short description on "Wiki", also he is the head coach of the Chinese men's tabletennis team. This isn't a trol/flame, i am really intrigued on wether you do know him and think he is a bad TT player, og you just never heard of him?

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